michaelp:
Everyone who’s name is not written in the book of life. Notice that this is talking about the “dead” who have yet to be resurrected (they undergo the “second resurrection.” All these people will be condemned and judged according to their works. Remember, the book talks about 2 resurrection. Take note of that when looking at the judgement.
Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but I must be blind. Please point to me where it states that those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be judged according to their works. From Revelation 20, we have
20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
and
20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
I’m sorry, I must be missing it, but it seems clear to me that
all the dead, Christians and non-Christians alike, will be judged according to their deeds (whether or not their names appear in the book of life).
michaelp:
I believe it is an sign of regeneration and our identification with Christ. I don’t believe that anyone can properly understand baptism until they have studied what it meant in NT times in general. It was a very serious symbolic act that people performed for all kinds of religions. Any convert who did not get baptized was not really a true convert. This is true today also for people who understand its importance.
Thank you for your honest and thoughtful reply. I won’t offer any more of a rebuttal than what is found in
John 3:5, because as with our conversation of salvation, you seem to indicate the baptism is an outward sign of an inner conversion. That is, once someone is “saved,” that person would choose to be baptized as the outward sign of his conversion, and, likewise, because he is “saved,” good works would automatically flow from his acceptance of Jesus as his Lord and Savior. And baptism is not the mechanism for the delivery of God’s grace, as the Church and early church fathers teach.
So, rather than try to convince you of anything else, can you at least see that Catholics are simply following the directions of Christ to the letter? This is why Catholic parents baptize their infants…because Jesus told us that “no one will enter the kingdom of God unless being born of water and Spirit.” And, because one cannot fully immerse a child and because Jesus calls all children to him, we follow the traditional practice of pouring water over the child’s head. Please, tell me, for I am curious, is there fault to be found in this practice or believing that the physical act of baptism truly changes a person?
michaelp:
A person who has had the sovereign God come into their life and opened their to Him cannot be lost unless the same sovereign God comes in and closes his or her heart. I am a strong predestinarian. It is very difficult for me to conceive of a true believer who has been unconditionally predestined by God somehow “lose” this salavtion.
Because a Christian can fall into sin. I know that I certainly have–those times when I rather wallow in my own personal sin than follow the will of God. That’s what it’s all about, isn’t it? The temptations the world throws at us can seemingly be too much to bear at times. And, there are times when we despair, when we think that God has abandoned us. Both are dangerous roads because we deceive ourselves of the truth and distance ourselves from God. And, without an authoritative Church to guide us, we can easily justify nearly any sin. I know with my particular sin of choice, it was so habitual, that I didn’t see anything wrong with it. But, only when I turned back to God and broke the vice, did I see the evil in it. But, had I not turned back to God, I can see how I may not have been saved. Because I would have chose sin over God. The problem it’s never that black and white. Sin is so seductive and seemingly innocent.
Continued…
