Belief in Forensic Justification permitted in the Catholic Church?

[jmcrae]

What are we as Catholics allowed to believe with regard to forensic justification (the idea that God, as Judge, looks at Jesus instead of at us, when we go to the Judgment Day).

The reason I ask is that I was at a Youth event recently, where one of the skits that was presented to the Catholic young people (ages 11-17) was a courtroom scene where the guilty are all lined up, and then Jesus comes along, says, 'Yes, they are all guilty, but I have taken their place on the Cross, so they are free to go."

I was a little startled to see this at a Catholic event, so I was just wondering whether this is one of the variations that is permitted?

And if not, I’m not really sure what to do. This was the official Youth Retreat Team, who are supposed to be under the personal supervision of the Bishop.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

It’s very simplistic. It does convey the message of salvation, but at the expense of repentance. I would have been a little disturbed too.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s very simplistic. It does convey the message of salvation, but at the expense of repentance. I would have been a little disturbed too.

Is there anyone out there who knows the status of this belief?

 

[Jim_Baur]

We are justified by Jesus Christ.

God places love and faith into our new hearts. In other words, we are justified by the gifts of a new heart and God’s love poured into our new hearts. Also, we receive other gifts such as faith, hope and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are what make us justified.

I think the skit clearly shows how wrong forensic justification is.

The authors of the skit must think it is correct, but it is wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

We are justified by Jesus Christ.

God places love and faith into our new hearts. In other words, we are justified by the gifts of a new heart and God’s love poured into our new hearts. Also, we receive other gifts such as faith, hope and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are what make us justified.

I think the skit clearly shows how wrong forensic justification is.

The authors of the skit must think it is correct, but it is wrong.

Thank you; that clarifies my own thinking.

Is there anything in the Catechism or in the Scriptures I could point to, to show that this sort of thinking is not in line with Catholic belief? I’d really prefer not to go to the Bishop, yet, since the people involved are employed in his office.

 

[brownjt]

What are we as Catholics allowed to believe with regard to forensic justification (the idea that God, as Judge, looks at Jesus instead of at us, when we go to the Judgment Day).

The reason I ask is that I was at a Youth event recently, where one of the skits that was presented to the Catholic young people (ages 11-17) was a courtroom scene where the guilty are all lined up, and then Jesus comes along, says, 'Yes, they are all guilty, but I have taken their place on the Cross, so they are free to go."

I was a little startled to see this at a Catholic event, so I was just wondering whether this is one of the variations that is permitted?

And if not, I’m not really sure what to do. This was the official Youth Retreat Team, who are supposed to be under the personal supervision of the Bishop.

It is for kids, ok? Jesus redemption on the cross alludes to the redemption of mankind from original sin. Jesus took the place of mankind on the cross. Salvation is accountable for each separate person. This skit is very Biblically based

 

[Jim_Baur]

Ephesians 6: 14 So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, 15 and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.

I Thessalonians 5: 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation.

These are two basic passages.

I agree with brownjt to some degree.

It is for children.

However, from a Catholic understanding, it is wrong.

It is incorrect from a biblical point of understanding, too.

If the teaching of the skit is pushed too far, it could really be harmful to adults or chidlren.

How one should handle the situation, I am not there so I have no good ideas.

 

[promethius]

Thank you; that clarifies my own thinking.

Is there anything in the Catechism or in the Scriptures I could point to, to show that this sort of thinking is not in line with Catholic belief? I’d really prefer not to go to the Bishop, yet, since the people involved are employed in his office.

I honestly don’t think you have ground to stand on. You’ve taken a catholic presentation and put it through the wringer of protestant beliefs… and taken your interpretation too far as well.

The idea of forensic justification is that we’d all be in the court room, Jesus would walk in and say “Hey, over here, look at Me, they’re all innocent now because you can’t see them.”

That isn’t the case here. We ARE all guilty. Our sin DOES merit us all the fires of hell. It is purely by Grace acting through faith which is made living by works which we are saved. And Jesus DID die on the cross for us to establish the route by which we have the means to enter into that grace.

The difference is in the part where Jesus says “they are all guilty.” That makes FAR from a statement of forensic justification.

 

[Nita]

What the skit seems to present is the general judgement, not the private immediate judgement right after death. In Matt 25:31-46, Our Lord gives a very different image of the general judgement.

Matt. 25:34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, …
AND
Matt 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, …

God’s love is unconditional - but justification and salvation are not.

Nita

 

[Catholic_Dude]

What are we as Catholics allowed to believe with regard to forensic justification (the idea that God, as Judge, looks at Jesus instead of at us, when we go to the Judgment Day).

The reason I ask is that I was at a Youth event recently, where one of the skits that was presented to the Catholic young people (ages 11-17) was a courtroom scene where the guilty are all lined up, and then Jesus comes along, says, 'Yes, they are all guilty, but I have taken their place on the Cross, so they are free to go."

I was a little startled to see this at a Catholic event, so I was just wondering whether this is one of the variations that is permitted?

And if not, I’m not really sure what to do. This was the official Youth Retreat Team, who are supposed to be under the personal supervision of the Bishop.

That is undoubtedly a Protestant presentation, likely learned from a Protestant curriculum or Protestant training camp.

It is problematic and troubling, for it is a gross distortion of Catholic theology at best.

I trust they acted out of ignorance.

 

[jmcrae]

That is undoubtedly a Protestant presentation, likely learned from a Protestant curriculum or Protestant training camp.

It is problematic and troubling, for it is a gross distortion of Catholic theology at best.

I trust they acted out of ignorance.

I assume so - I certainly don’t suspect any malice at all.

The people doing it are very young (in their 20s), and our Catholic youth program is relatively new. I assume these particular people attended Protestant youth rallies when they were kids, and think that this particular skit is a “youth rally skit”, without thinking about the theology behind it, really, at all. The reason I’m thinking that is that, immediately after the skit, they took the kids to Adoration, and talked to them about Jesus in the Eucharist and the need for personal purity - which totally contradicted the message of the skit - so I don’t think they were considering “message” when they were doing the skit; I think they were just thinking “fun” and “youth rally-type stuff”.

As I say, I’m not quite sure how to approach (or whether I should be the one to approach) anybody about it. Or what I should say, since I’m not completely sure how to express the Catholic teaching on this matter, or say how it contradicts the understanding that is presented in the skit.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I assume so - I certainly don’t suspect any malice at all.

The people doing it are very young (in their 20s), and our Catholic youth program is relatively new. I assume these particular people attended Protestant youth rallies when they were kids, and think that this particular skit is a “youth rally skit”, without thinking about the theology behind it, really, at all. The reason I’m thinking that is that, immediately after the skit, they took the kids to Adoration, and talked to them about Jesus in the Eucharist and the need for personal purity - which totally contradicted the message of the skit - so I don’t think they were considering “message” when they were doing the skit; I think they were just thinking “fun” and “youth rally-type stuff”.

As I say, I’m not quite sure how to approach (or whether I should be the one to approach) anybody about it. Or what I should say, since I’m not completely sure how to express the Catholic teaching on this matter, or say how it contradicts the understanding that is presented in the skit.

I agree, they probably learned it from a Protestant rally and thought it a good fun thing to do without thinking about it.

Read the link in my sig for an example of how Catholicism really differs from Protestantism.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree, they probably learned it from a Protestant rally and thought it a good fun thing to do without thinking about it.

Read the link in my sig for an example of how Catholicism really differs from Protestantism.

Thanks.

I might just send your page to the person who organized the event, without mentioning why I think he should read it - I’ll just say, “Hey, I found a neat web page that I think you will find interesting.”

 

[promethius]

That is undoubtedly a Protestant presentation, likely learned from a Protestant curriculum or Protestant training camp.

I still strongly disagree. Having been force fed protestantism and particularly forensic justification doctrine for about 8 years as a child, I can tell you for fact that forensic justification would NEVER have Jesus saying “they are guilty.” Not for any reason. Forensic justification also wouldn’t say “but I have died on the cross for them.” Forensic justification would say “but they are covered in My Blood.” Distinct difference.

Forensic justification is usually metaphored into being covered in gold, so that the presentation is pure… in other words, there is no admission or sight of guilt at judgement.

What was presented here was a poorly done version (and a stretch at that) of catholic doctrine, but it most certainly is NOT forensic justification.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I still strongly disagree. Having been force fed protestantism and particularly forensic justification doctrine for about 8 years as a child, I can tell you for fact that forensic justification would NEVER have Jesus saying “they are guilty.” Not for any reason. Forensic justification also wouldn’t say “but I have died on the cross for them.” Forensic justification would say “but they are covered in My Blood.” Distinct difference.

Forensic justification is usually metaphored into being covered in gold, so that the presentation is pure… in other words, there is no admission or sight of guilt at judgement.

What was presented here was a poorly done version (and a stretch at that) of catholic doctrine, but it most certainly is NOT forensic justification.

There are two ‘components’ to Protestant justification, Christ getting punished in place of the sinner AND Christ’s good obedient life ‘covering’ the sinner so they appear to the judge good and obedient.

What was presented at the skit was not the full picture, but there was nothing majorly wrong.

 

[brownjt]

There are two ‘components’ to Protestant justification, Christ getting punished in place of the sinner AND Christ’s good obedient life ‘covering’ the sinner so they appear to the judge good and obedient.

What was presented at the skit was not the full picture, but there was nothing majorly wrong.

I have been one of those “protestants” (responsible for bringing christianity to America and planting it…) for 51 years and was never/never forcefed 'forensic justification" Please read your New Testaments and Paul’s writings (2009 is the Pauline year…) And tell the protestant preachers as well…

We are all bathed in the blood of christ once we are saved, justified, and sanctified. Yes - it will be He at the gates of St. Peter that says he was one of mine - he is forgiven. Enter into the kingdom, eat the feast…

 

[Jim_Baur]

brownjt

I will not agrue with or against you, I just want to understand your position.

Is there forensic justification?

What is it?

Based on the two following passages, I believe that justification is composed of love and faith. Also that it is poured into our new man.

I believe this, I cannot prove it.

That is why I will not agrue.

I will not agrue, but only listen. I will not reply again, but only read and listen to your belief.

God Bless,

Jim Baur

Ephesians 6: 14 So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, 15 and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.

I Thessalonians 5: 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

I have been one of those “protestants” (responsible for bringing christianity to America and planting it…)

With all due respect, Catholics were in the U.S. before Protestantism even existed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_the_United_States

Love is Patient

 

[brownjt]

brownjt

I will not agrue with or against you, I just want to understand your position.

Is there forensic justification?

What is it?

Based on the two following passages, I believe that justification is composed of love and faith. Also that it is poured into our new man.

I believe this, I cannot prove it.

That is why I will not agrue.

I will not agrue, but only listen. I will not reply again, but only read and listen to your belief.

God Bless,

Jim Baur

Ephesians 6: 14 So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, 15 and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.

I Thessalonians 5: 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation.

Thanks - I never heard of that phrase before the last two days - maybe taught in some branches of the protestant church - that is the problem - too many of these thing flying around…

 

[Ruthie]

…a courtroom scene where the guilty are all lined up, and then Jesus comes along, says, 'Yes, they are all guilty, but I have taken their place on the Cross, so they are free to go."

I’m too fuzzy today to do much deep thinking… but what struck me right away about this is that it denies Purgatory. The existence of Purgatory is dogma de fide, and must be believed!

Hope that helps,

Ruthie, who caught the crud and is mizzable.