Belief vs Acknowledgement.

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Are they the same?If so how?Are they different?What are the consequences for those who acknowledge Christ’s death for our sins and those who believe it?
How do you view acknowledgement and belief.Are they equally efficatious as far as salvation goes./
 
Are they the same?If so how?Are they different?What are the consequences for those who acknowledge Christ’s death for our sins and those who believe it?
How do you view acknowledgement and belief.Are they equally efficatious as far as salvation goes./
If by acknowledge you mean a bare mental assent to the historical reality that Christ was crucified for sinners and was raised on the third day… Well, even the devil acknowledges that this took place. If you mean by belief a trust that Christ did everything necessary to bear the penalty my sin deserves, lived and died specifically for me and then trusting that work to justify me before God… yes, that would be faith.
 
If by acknowledge you mean a bare mental assent to the historical reality that Christ was crucified for sinners and was raised on the third day… Well, even the devil acknowledges that this took place. If you mean by belief a trust that Christ did everything necessary to bear the penalty my sin deserves, lived and died specifically for me and then trusting that work to justify me before God… yes, that would be faith.
Do you believe that you are required to participate in your salvation by LIVING an active Faith that manifests itself in Love,Charity and works as in James?Is Faith (that I perhaps mischaracterized as mere Acknowledgement),without works truly dead?
 
“Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.”
 
Do you believe that you are required to participate in your salvation by LIVING an active Faith that manifests itself in Love,Charity and works as in James?Is Faith (that I perhaps mischaracterized as mere Acknowledgement),without works truly dead?
Yes, within our sanctification, we participate with an active, living faith, not because it adds to what Christ has done, but because we rejoice in what He has done, and respond with obedient joy, doing that which He has prepared us to do.

Jon
 
Yes, within our sanctification, we participate with an active, living faith, not because it adds to what Christ has done, but because we rejoice in what He has done, and respond with obedient joy, doing that which He has prepared us to do.

Jon
I agree completely.What becomes of he/she who does not participate with an “active living faith” but who acknowledges or believes that Christ died for our sins and believes that that is totally sufficient.In other words someone who has "Faith"that he/she is saved but does not “participate with an active living faith”?

I am not trying to bait or trap anyone here but I’m sick of being told that Catholics have a "works-based"idea of salvation.
 
I agree completely.What becomes of he/she who does not participate with an “active living faith” but who acknowledges or believes that Christ died for our sins and believes that that is totally sufficient.In other words someone who has "Faith"that he/she is saved but does not “participate with an active living faith”?

I am not trying to bait or trap anyone here but I’m sick of being told that Catholics have a "works-based"idea of salvation.
JonNC summed it up nicely… The best way I can probably explain it, would be to say that the faith which unites us to Christ is something we receive passively, without participation on the part of the sinner. Which would mean, by extension, that the sinner doesn’t participate in his justification, either by works or by faith, since the faith is a gift. We would also disagree that justification is progressive… One is either fully just or not just at all.

However, in a negative sense, a sinner can resist the Holy Spirit, reject faith, and fall back into a state of spiritual death. This can happen very easily through unrepentant sin. In that respect, sanctification is important. Sanctification is no less a part of salvation than justification. It just functions differently, whereas Rome tends to see it as equivalent to justification.
 
Faith is an undeserved gift that one does NOT respond to with passivity.Faith is a choice,a decision that must be made to accept or reject or else we see the heresy of pre-destination rear its ugly head.We MUST participate fully in the gift of our Faith.An analogy would be a Birthday present.I can choose to open it or not.I always have that CHOICE.
 
This thread is not really about the difference between Catholic and Lutheran definitions of justification and sanctification which deserves its own thread and hopefully will receive contributions by Catholics far more knowledgeable than I,but the definitions of and ramifications of Belief vs Acknowledgement or Active Belief(love,charity,works)and Passive Belief(where love,charity works are not required but mere belief that Christ died for our sins ergo we are defacto “saved”)
I do thank you and Jon for your always thought provoking theses though:).
 
I agree generally with TU and Jon, but I would repudiate ANY idea that we “participate in our salvation”.
 
I agree generally with TU and Jon, but I would repudiate ANY idea that we “participate in our salvation”.
Please explain in detail.You have the Free Will to say YES or NO to Christ through the way you live(or not)your Faith.That IS participation in your salvation.
The Catholic Church defines as heresy,Pelegianism,the belief that one can work one’s way to heaven.Works will not get you into heaven but the lack of same will keep you out of heaven.Faith without works is d-e-a-d dead!
 
Please explain in detail.You have the Free Will to say YES or NO to Christ through the way you live(or not)your Faith.That IS participation in your salvation.
The Catholic Church defines as heresy,Pelegianism,the belief that one can work one’s way to heaven.Works will not get you into heaven but the lack of same will keep you out of heaven.Faith without works is d-e-a-d dead!
If I could draw your attention to the church affiliation marker under my join date. We probably mean very different things by “free will”.

At any rate, I certainly concede that works prove our faith and in that sense justify it and are in that sense necessary, even the good works we do are done only because God works in us to will and to do them (Php 2:13), so since it is God Who works everything, there can be no talk of participation. He doesn’t share His glory with another.
 
If I could draw your attention to the church affiliation marker under my join date. We probably mean very different things by “free will”.

At any rate, I certainly concede that works prove our faith and in that sense justify it and are in that sense necessary, even the good works we do are done only because God works in us to will and to do them (Php 2:13), so since it is God Who works everything, there can be no talk of participation. He doesn’t share His glory with another.
Of course God works in us to will us to do them but he does not force us to do them nor does He deny us our autonomy,That’s why St Paul says we are to work out our salvation in “fear and trembling”.By participating or rather COOPERATING with our salvation we are detracting Nothing from God.Cooperating IS participating.Our salvation does NOT just occur with us as bystanders.That smacks of the Elect,pre-destination and other Calvinistic clap-trap.Don’t presume to say that I advocate sharing glory with my Lord and Master.
 
Belief in and of itself is a decision,a choice.Faith is given to us by the Grace dispensed by our Lord.Belief is a work,as is cooperation with the salvation so freely offered us-that is what I mean by participating in our salvation.I am going to quote another poster John7 who sums it up succinctly:
John 6:28-29
Then said they unto him,
What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
Faith is an undeserved gift that one does NOT respond to with passivity.Faith is a choice,a decision that must be made to accept or reject or else we see the heresy of pre-destination rear its ugly head.We MUST participate fully in the gift of our Faith.An analogy would be a Birthday present.I can choose to open it or not.I always have that CHOICE.
By passivity, Soutane, I mean that the human does not make a conscious effort to have faith. If faith is a gift, by its nature, it cannot be accepted. It can be rejected by resisting the drawing of the Holy Spirit in Word and Sacrament. The ability to have faith in God’s promises is not natural to the corrupted human nature. Because the spirit of man is dead in transgressions and sins (Eph. 2:1), it would be analogous to asking a corpse to will itself to life. It isn’t going to happen unless it’s resurrected by someone else, who is God.
 
By passivity, Soutane, I mean that the human does not make a conscious effort to have faith. If faith is a gift, by its nature, it cannot be accepted. It can be rejected by resisting the drawing of the Holy Spirit in Word and Sacrament. The ability to have faith in God’s promises is not natural to the corrupted human nature. Because the spirit of man is dead in transgressions and sins (Eph. 2:1), it would be analogous to asking a corpse to will itself to life. It isn’t going to happen unless it’s resurrected by someone else, who is God.
Triune all gifts must be accepted or rejected.If it is imposed it no longer is a gift.I agree that Faith ONLY comes from God and that we cannot WILL it.But God in His Wisdom and Love does not impose Himself.He offers Himself and we can accept Him or reject Him through love of the world(sin)I was once wavering in my Faith and a Czech priest advised me "to be like steel"Something that took me a long time to understand as counsel to resist the blandishments of Satan.After all even Christ was tempted.As Catholics we reject the protestant idea that Man and the World are completely and irrevovably corrupt.We define ourselces as"fallen"with fallen natures and a prediliction to sin but it is by being born again through the sacrament of Baptism are we open to only Christ who will save us and we can choose to accept or reject this freely offered and totally undeserved salvation.I get the feeling that somehow we are talking past each other(sigh).
 
Triune all gifts must be accepted or rejected.If it is imposed it no longer is a gift.I agree that Faith ONLY comes from God and that we cannot WILL it.But God in His Wisdom and Love does not impose Himself.He offers Himself and we can accept Him or reject Him through love of the world(sin)I was once wavering in my Faith and a Czech priest advised me "to be like steel"Something that took me a long time to understand as counsel to resist the blandishments of Satan.After all even Christ was tempted.As Catholics we reject the protestant idea that Man and the World are completely and irrevovably corrupt.We define ourselces as"fallen"with fallen natures and a prediliction to sin but it is by being born again through the sacrament of Baptism are we open to only Christ who will save us and we can choose to accept or reject this freely offered and totally undeserved salvation.I get the feeling that somehow we are talking past each other(sigh).
Soutane,
Maybe a better word from a Lutheran perspective is “receive”, rather than “accept”. And yet, we recognize that a bold, living faith must be acted upon. The gift of faith we receive (Justification), our actions are in response to that gift of faith (sanctification).

Jon
 
Of course God works in us to will us to do them but he does not force us to do them nor does He deny us our autonomy,That’s why St Paul says we are to work out our salvation in “fear and trembling”.By participating or rather COOPERATING with our salvation we are detracting Nothing from God.Cooperating IS participating.Our salvation does NOT just occur with us as bystanders.That smacks of the Elect,pre-destination and other Calvinistic clap-trap.Don’t presume to say that I advocate sharing glory with my Lord and Master.
But that’s not what it says. It says that He works IN US to will and to do.

Where the unregenerate heart does not desire what God wills, the regenerate heart now does and it is very well said that we the redeemed voluntarily do these things, but it remains that we do not do them alone but that, again, God works in us to do them. So there can be no merit in them accruing to us, only glory to God.

And one more thing, friend, I am Reformed so I believe all that “clap-trap” you refer to and while I am not offended by your use of that kind of dismissive wording I would offer the friendly caution that it rather undermines your credibility and tends to disincline me to interact with you.
 
If I have offended you by my importune choice of words that you obviously found offensive,I sincerely apologize and ask that you forgive me.I am truly sorry that I have offended you.Gordon.
 
I appreciate that a lot, Gordon. As I said, you didn’t really offend me, it’s just that I have so little time, it can be discouraging to have to chip through animosity as well as argument.
 
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