Beliefs of the Early Church

[mayra_hart]

Again we turned the early Christians who received their “instructed by apostles” and see that those who teach outside the authority of the Roman Catholic Church are"Either …heretics of perverse minds, or …schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or …hypocrites"

Irenaeus of Lyons "t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church --those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189] 4:26:2)

 

[WBB]

ahimsaman72:

This is the pot calling the kettle black. You disagree with protestantism because it is at odds with your opinion. Don’t you believe (have an opinion) that the Catholic Church is the one true church? Of course - it’s your opinion/belief based on the evidence you find compelling. I see evidence the other way.

You should find a thicker skin if ridiculous or not reasonable offend you.

I reject nothing in protestantism that is true. I was protestant for the first 21 years of my life and brought those things that I had been taught in protestant churches with me when I accepted the fullness of Truth as taught in the Catholic Church.

What the Catholic Church says about itself is that it possesses the fullness of revealed Truth, not that it is the “one true Church.”

I am not offended by your name calling. I just think it is beneath you and serves no purpose.

Oh, and one other thing…what you call knowledge based on the teachings of others is what we call Tradition, because what you described is the definition of Sacred Tradition…understanding the faith through the eyes of the Apostles.

 

[ahimsaman72]

WBB:

I reject nothing in protestantism that is true. I was protestant for the first 21 years of my life and brought those things that I had been taught in protestant churches with me when I accepted the fullness of Truth as taught in the Catholic Church.

What the Catholic Church says about itself is that it possesses the fullness of revealed Truth, not that it is the “one true Church.”

I am not offended by your name calling. I just think it is beneath you and serves no purpose.

Oh, and one other thing…what you call knowledge based on the teachings of others is what we call Tradition, because what you described is the definition of Sacred Tradition…understanding the faith through the eyes of the Apostles.

Friend,

If you were offended by the pot and kettle phrase, I am truly sorry. However, I wouldn’t call that name-calling. It would not be beneath me to use a phrase to get a point across. I would still recommend a thicker skin. It has served me well here on this forum and at other times. People say all kinds of things and if you don’t let it “roll off your back”, you will be hurt alot in your life. I’ve had many who oppose me say all kinds of things that were much worse than what I have shared here. Nevertheless, it must be let go.

I wish you only peace and blessings…

Goodbye…

Ahimsaman72

 

[WBB]

ahimsaman72:

Friend,

If you were offended by the pot and kettle phrase, I am truly sorry. However, I wouldn’t call that name-calling. It would not be beneath me to use a phrase to get a point across. I would still recommend a thicker skin. It has served me well here on this forum and at other times. People say all kinds of things and if you don’t let it “roll off your back”, you will be hurt alot in your life. I’ve had many who oppose me say all kinds of things that were much worse than what I have shared here. Nevertheless, it must be let go.

I wish you only peace and blessings…

Goodbye…

Ahimsaman72

Thanks for the good wishes. My skin is thicker than you might think. The pot calling the kettle black thing is not what I was referring to, but nevertheless, I will take your advice and let it go.

 

[ahimsaman72]

WBB:

Thanks for the good wishes. My skin is thicker than you might think. The pot calling the kettle black thing is not what I was referring to, but nevertheless, I will take your advice and let it go.

Forgive me, friend, for any insolent remarks. I wish you no harm and apologize for ill behavior. I get carried away at times. I never want to hurt anyone. You have been cordial and honest and I appreciate that. I leave you in peace and hope we can be friends - if it is possible. I extend you my hand of peace…

ahimsaman

 

[RobbyS]

ahimsaman72:

Les,

Let’s stick to the point here without talking about circles. Fact is that there is one great reference to what I am referring to when I speak of Christians accepting what Paul taught. Remember the passage about the Bereans? They listened to what Paul said about Christ and referenced the Scriptures they had. It’s there in black and white - Acts 17:10,11

“10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, **and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” **(emphasis mine).

By what authority, you ask? By the God-breathed authority of Scripture along with the gospel that Paul preached. They were able to discern what was being said to them and were able to verify its truth.

Paul’s letters were sent to help the brethren throughout the territories. He spoke of praying for them and visiting them. He spoke of guidelines for behavior. He set up leadership positions in the congregations he built or that he built up. His role was not one simply of correcting heresy and error.

Let me give you a verse that clears the air about the apostles and how they viewed themselves. Look at I Peter with me:

1 Peter 5

1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

I’m afraid the Roman Catholic Church holds Peter to a higher esteem than he ever claimed for himself.

The Scriptures, of course, were the prophesies in Jewish scripture.

 

[RobbyS]

ahimsaman72:

Because as Scripture testifies, some will fall away and follow after doctrines of men and will seek after men who will teach them what they want to hear

As the parable of Christ concerning the rich man and lazarus explains (Luke 16), there is a great gulf fixed between hell and the earth and the same goes for heaven. You can’t cross over of your own will, can you? The rich man asked that since Lazarus could not help him quench his thirst, that God would send Lazarus to the rich man’s family house to warn them of the agony that awaits those who deny God.

I have told you already about the prophetic book and you have not listened. Follow my progression: 1) Revelation is full of prophecies 2) Revelation is full of symbolism (you don’t really think ten horns come out of “beast” do you?) Of course not. Rev. 5:8 is full of symbolism and not meant for any liturgical or doctrinal purposes. You can’t get there from here.

Is it not only allowed for ministers who convert and become priests to remain married? Yes. There are married Catholic priests for this reason alone. It is expected that they be celibate. It is considered the “norm” as you say. My initial challenge still stands. The doctrines of celibacy of priests, prayers to Mary, etc.etc is foreign to the New Testament church. It adds a requirement that Christ never intended.

And I still haven’t had anyone answer my statistical analysis of the supposed 30,000 denoms and the unity that exists rather than disunity. And I haven’t yet seen an answer about the Lord’s Supper that I posted and practice of protestants with regard to it.

." The doctrines of celibacy of priests, prayers to Mary, etc.etc is foreign to the New Testament church."

We will always go in circles so long as you insist on a narrow definition of “the New Testament Church.” acknowledging nothing that is not explicitly stated. But this is merely to assert a dogma. If one reads what the text says, one can hardly get an detail of HOW the Church worshipped. Christians were not interested in detailing this because they knew how they worshiped. They knew what “the breaking of the bread” meant. They knew it was pointless to tell this to unbelieving Jews or receptive gentiles. That was something that they made known after people made their commitment. Their “apologetic” was not a defense of Christian practice but an assertion that Jesus was Lord. More than anything the New Testament is commentary on the Jewish scriptures and showing that the Church is the community foretold by the prophets. The Protestant project was to make the Church of the 16th Century like that of the Jewish Christians of the first generation without however recognizing how sparse a description of that society is provided by the canonized text.

 

[RobbyS]

Note that Christ didn’t say, go ye therefore and write all of this down.

Actually, the doctrines of the Church are not as complex as you might think. Start with Jesus’ statement in Matthew 22:37-40;
*37. *He said to him, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind,

*38. *This is the greatest and the first commandment.

*39. *The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

*40. *The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Catholicism today is 2000 years of learning how to do just that, by the grace of God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
You mentioned the Baptist tradition. I was raised in that tradition, recently I came home to the Catholic Church. As others have pointed out, you won’t find the doctrine of the Trinity in the pages of scripture, it must be extrapolated. And I know that Baptists believe it.

What you are missing is summed up by the church historian Philip Hughes in his work the “History of the Church to the Eve of the Reformation.”

The writings which make up the New Testament were none of them written to be a primary and sufficient source of information as to what the new religion was. They were all of them evidently addressed to readers already instructed, to recall what they have learnt, to supplement it, to clear up disputes which have arisen since the first instruction. Yet, though none of them profess to describe fully either the teaching or the organisation, we can extract from them valuable information on these two points. Though the facts may be few they are certain, and among these certain facts is the character of the early propaganda and of the primitive organisation. Page 46.

Was reading this and thought it needs repeating.

 

[Ignatius]

." The doctrines of celibacy of priests, prayers to Mary, etc.etc is foreign to the New Testament church."

.

Hi Robby and welcome to Catholic Answers. Let’s start by dispelling the falsehoods you have apparently been taught. There are no such doctrines as what you say here.

We will always go in circles so long as you insist on a narrow definition of “the New Testament Church.” acknowledging nothing that is not explicitly stated. But this is merely to assert a dogma.

Again here, from your statement, you clearly do not understand what dogma is. You are certainly going to have to do some scholarship or you will with out a doubt be always going in circles.

If one reads what the text says, one can hardly get an detail of HOW the Church worshipped. Christians were not interested in detailing this.

And you know what they were interested in how?

I don’t suppose that you are aware that, according to a recent poll, the majority (about 70%) of those on the Catholic Answers forum are formerly Protestants, some were actually Seminary Graduates of Calvin College, Moody and other highly acclaimed Protestants colleges and were ordained pastors of large congregations.

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Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ.