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Teabag
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Judas was born for the role so to speak. His destiny was laid before he was born.
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ProdglArchitect
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This is a mis-characterization. Judas didnât have a destiny, none of us do, at least not in the way you seem to be implying here.
Godâs omnipotence means that he knows all of our choices, but that does not mean that he makes them for us. He does not force us to some specific end despite what we will for ourselves. The only reason God knew that Judas would betray Christ was because Judas made the choice to do so. This is hard for us to grasp because we exist in linear time; but God is outside of time, everything is one continuous NOW. Judas was not born to betray Christ, he was born to follow Him, just like you, me, and everyone else. Through Judasâ own choices he did betray Christ though, and God used that betrayal to bring about the salvation of Humanity. If Judas hadnât betrayed Jesus, the Pharisees still would have found a way to kill our Lord.
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JapaneseKappa
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Then did Judas actually have a choice?
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Kay_Cee
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Yes, he had a choice.
I got into this whole business a bit in my second novel, Nearer the Dawn. I have a scene that shows the rebellion of the angels. One of the rebels accuses God of being complicit in his evil because âHe knew this was going to happen, and he created me anyway!â Itâs essentially an accusation that God has forced him by the fact that He created him, and, being omniscient, knew beforehand that he would rebel. But another angel, one who hasnât rebelled, points out that if there were no choice, God would have forced him already, that is, forced him to love Him.
Judas had a choice to love Christ or not love Him. Just because God already knew what he would choose doesnât mean Judas didnât choose it.
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ProdglArchitect
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Yes, because even if Judas had not killed Christ, Godâs plan would have been accomplished in another way.
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ProdglArchitect
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Sorry, quick fix and itâs too late to edit it: If Judas had no betrayed, not killed.
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tonyrey
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Knowledge doesnât entail causation!Judas had served Jesus faithfully for three years, listened to His teaching, seen His miracles, followed Him with the other apostles as they climbed through the mountains and walked long distances through the desert and rough terrain on dangerous roads in Galilee, Samaria and Judea. He had dedicated himself completely to Our Lord after witnessing His compassion for the poor, blind, paralysed, possessed and afflicted. Do all those sacrifices count for nothing when we are deciding whether Judas loved Christ? Are they completed wiped out by one act of betrayal which was probably the result of a temptation inspired by Satan?
If Judas hadnât said âI have betrayed innocent bloodâ there would be no doubt at all that he didnât love Christ but he gave his life like his Master. It wasnât for the right reason but a misguided attempt to atone for his guilt in the only way he could. What else could he have done? Jesus died and three other men died One thief had faith and was rewarded by the promise that he would be in paradise that very day. The other thief may have been impressed by the words of Jesus and given hope. Judas died alone in despair, despised by everyone for his treachery right down to the present day. I believe he has been punished enough but only God in His mercy knows the truthâŚ
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tonyrey
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It could be said that Judas was the indirect cause of the death of Jesus but He had so many enemies some one else would have revealed where He and the apostles used to meet.
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tonyrey
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Judas wasnât compelled to be an apostle but like the others he must have been swayed by the charisma of Jesus. Whether he was compelled to betray his Master depends on how much power Satan has to influence people, an issue which is impossible for us to decide. As a result of original sin there is a weakness in all of us that can be exploited. The fact remains that Judas committed a heinous act of treachery for which he couldnât be forgiven if he was fully responsible for his decision but there again we cannot know to what extent he was in control of himself. In our secular society diabolical possession is regarded with scepticism even by Catholics in spite of a lot of evidence that it does occur. We all have a vocation and it seems likely that Judas was destined to follow Jesus like Peter - who also revealed weakness and gave in to temptation several times. It seems the closer the saints have been to God the more likely they are to be pursued by Satan. St John Vianney is a famous example. Judas is not usually regarded as a saint but like the other apostles he was certainly in a very vulnerable position and he was the one who failed to resist. Can we be absolutely sure we havenât betrayed Jesus in any way? He told us the truth:
âLet him who is without sin, cast the first stone.â%between%
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ffg
Guest
To âget Judasâ, I think is âto getâ 2 things -
Judas is an example for us to be conscientious of the bigger picture, and understand there can be unfavorable consequences to keeping our focus small and in our little bubble.
- sin is real, and all humans sin.
- sinâs effects are real
Judas is an example for us to be conscientious of the bigger picture, and understand there can be unfavorable consequences to keeping our focus small and in our little bubble.
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HabemusFrancis
Guest
May I ask though why what Judas did was bad? Did not Jesus know he had to die an excruciating death ( a death which he himself could have escaped if He wished) and was not Judasâ just accelerating the inevitable.
Sometimes I think there is a bit of cognitive dissonance for people who say Jesus death on cross was good, but it was bad the people who âhelped him along.â
Itâs sort of like some people condemning Pontius Pilate for his weakness and cowardice ( or more likely just apathy/limited concern for Jesus ) in having him crucified. What would have happened if Pilate put his foot down and refused to crucify Him? Would that have been preferable?
I think sometimes the sympathetic portrayals of Judas only make sense if people donât believe Jesus was God sent to redeem humanity. Not a socialist/marxist revolutionary looking to overthrow the Romans and usher in a reign of peace and love. His movement was strictly non-political and (seemingly) at peace with Roman rule, or the rule of any temporal power really. Judas had to have realized that early on, and makes me suspect the whole âgetting Jesus captured so he can show offâ never happened.
Makes me wonder why Judas even dared do what he did. Wouldnât he have been afraid of being killed by Jesus because of his great powers? Why did he think the arrest would be succesful, or even what the likely outcome/endgame was?
I get why he killed himself, and it may not have been for deep sorrow/repentence. He could have realized he was finished and had nothing or no one left anymore. Maybe he hoped he could get in good with the High Priests, but was rebuffed by them with contempt for being a traitor.
He basically seemd to turn on the apostles, and felt it would be unlikely theyâd welcome him back. In those days⌠it was a lot harder to just get a new job/career, and the position you had, you tended to stay in. Judas perhaps thought it would be tough to get a new support group or group of friends/benefactors, believed heâd be cursed/reviled for helping kill Jesus of Nazareth, and decided to âend it allâ because the pain and despair was too great.
Of course⌠not as great as what he feels now, if indeed âbetter off if he hadnât been bornâ was indeed true, and not just the artistic lisence of Johnâs authorâŚ
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tonyrey
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Precisely! We donât know what went on in his mind but we can be sure Judas didnât intend to kill himself when he betrayed Jesus. It was such a dramatic turn of events I think he was tempted by Satan like his Master. He seems to have been a different person both before and after that fatal decision. He may have been a petty thief but that is a far cry from being a traitorâŚThe power of evil was certainly evident from the time Jesus was born. The massacre of the innocents and the execution of St John the Baptist by Herod were followed by the victims exorcised by Jesus, the persecution of the first Christians by St Paul prior to his conversion, the martyrdom of all the apostles except St John and thousands of members of the early Church particularly in Rome by Nero.
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