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PRmerger
Guest
Hi, Thor,
You posted on another thread, and I responded and asked you a question in return.
Would you mind addressing the question?
I am very interested in your reply.
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You posted on another thread, and I responded and asked you a question in return.
Would you mind addressing the question?
I am very interested in your reply.
P
Peccavi
Guest
Cut and pasting Jesus in my own liking ? The whole thrust of your argument against me is cut and paste sentences lifting out of the Gospels. The total thrust of Jesus ministry, the whole package is what i’m interested in not a few lifted sentences often out of the context they were spoken in. Besides the very statues I find of Mary and Jesus are unauthentic images of golden haired Westerners bearing no likeness at all to the Mary and Jesus of 1st Century Palestine. So we all seem to remake Christ in our own image removing him from history. Yet the God of the Old Testament and the Gospels works through history.
Why then do Catholics loose faith in Christ ? Could it be the faith has become tarnished by its failures to live up to its own teachings ? And if indeed God still sees it as the vehicle through which salvation will be brought about why does he allow evil to enter it. Frankly I await the Second Coming with interest to see who recognises and reject the Son of God next time out.
Why then do Catholics loose faith in Christ ? Could it be the faith has become tarnished by its failures to live up to its own teachings ? And if indeed God still sees it as the vehicle through which salvation will be brought about why does he allow evil to enter it. Frankly I await the Second Coming with interest to see who recognises and reject the Son of God next time out.
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AngelBerp
Guest
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Peccavi, try I Cor 12:1-27 and Eph 4:10-16 for size, then Mk 10:29-30. Hoping this helps!
As for the i’s and the t’s it’s called scruples and casuistry and is utterly abhorrent.
I think Darryl B’s post is good on the OP’s subject and most of Abu’s.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Old Testament prophecy describes how the Anointed Redeemer will make it possible to build up fellow believers spiritually by sharing Scriptures - giving the fellow servants their rations - instruct the bereaved and lonely to gain a spiritual crown by enabling their fellows to make disciples in turn. This is part of the sort of thing the quoted writer, Dagood, hasn’t factored into his calculations, on top of his other weak areas.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Well my grandparents weren’t!
You’ve got to leave room in “your” church for God’s creatures like James and me to be in it, Pec.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Hmmn, God becoming man and dying and rising from death bringing salvation to all. Pretty good idea, right? Many people have died for this “idea.” That really sets the ground work for proof.
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lax16
Guest
Being a Christian is more than following good ideas. It is a total belief system and a lifestyle.
The early Christians were completely transformed by Jesus Christ and countless people are today.
So you agree that Jesus’ ideas were/are good and worth following?
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Abu
Guest
His divinity and His mandated requirements to follow His own Catholic Church leave no room for idle speculation, indifference or picking and choosing. To the Jews’ request to show them a sign after he chased the money changers and animals from the Temple, Jesus prophesised: “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.” [Jn 2:19]. “He was speaking of the temple of His body” [Jn 2:21].
His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42;Jn11:47).Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].
The evidence of history which attests Christ as the Son of God, sent to redeem humanity, also attests, to this day, to His reality and His truths through the facts of the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically attested miracles that take place at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.
No one can imitate the reality of Christ acting in and through His Catholic Church.
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Peccavi
Guest
As i said I await the Second Coming with interest. God alone knows which among us is on the right road. What is clear if we have not fed the hungry, loved our neighbours, forgiven others their weaknesses, shared what we have with the poor and the oppressed we are in for a tough time for sure. Equally if Jesus was the dogmatism some claim why did he attack the dogmatists of Judaism ? He broke the Sabbath traditions, the mixed with unsavory characters, with women, with Samaritans ( who were as despised then as many Muslims are today) with tax collectors and revolutionary Zealots. He talked mostly of the Kingdom of God - a collective experience.
When the British Communist Douglas Hyde left the Communist Party and became a Catholic he experienced a loss of comradeship he had found among his Communist comrades. “Fellowship is life,” William Morris had written and Hyde found that fellowship was missing among Catholics whose faith was personalised and inward looking. His experience led him into a nihilism born of shattered dreams that a community could be created from faith.
When the British Communist Douglas Hyde left the Communist Party and became a Catholic he experienced a loss of comradeship he had found among his Communist comrades. “Fellowship is life,” William Morris had written and Hyde found that fellowship was missing among Catholics whose faith was personalised and inward looking. His experience led him into a nihilism born of shattered dreams that a community could be created from faith.
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
A good, thought-provoking post. I, too, find a sense of community lacking in the Catholic Church, but I remain a devout Catholic.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
There is a book coming out by Dr. Brant Pitre about the historicity of Jesus called, “The Case for Jesus”.
He will also be on Catholic Answers live radio show today to talk about it.
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NM505StKate
Guest
, 4.3, 1.2; See Free From All Error, Fr W. Most, p 12]
** Who else, except the Christ, claimed to be God and proved it?**
The reality is that:
Fact 1: There was a man called Jesus.
Fact 2: He claimed to be a messenger sent from God.
Fact 3: He did enough to prove that He was such a messenger.
Fact 4: Crowds followed Jesus and He had an inner circle to whom he spoke much more.
Fact 5: He commissioned His followers to continue His teaching and founded His Church.
Fact 6: Jesus affirmed that God would protect that teaching.
Obviously, the Resurrection of Jesus is the key, as the existence and faith of the Catholic communities is not self-explanatory, but dependent on the fact of the spectacular historical Jesus and the fact of His Resurrection.
Why should Jesus take precedence over all others?
The historian Eusebius in his Church history, 4.3, 1.2, tells us that writing about 123 A.D., apologist Quadratus cited those in his day who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus of Nazareth – prime witnesses – long after the miracles, crucifixion and death of the Son of God. No other religious founder claimed to be God and proved it – not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.
His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42;Jn11:47).Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].
The evidence of history which attests Christ as the Son of God, sent to redeem humanity, also attests, to this day, to His reality and His truths through the facts of the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically attested miracles that take place at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.
No one can refute these facts of history. It is time to absorb the facts of history.
Yet there is very little historical evidence of Jesus. If his miracles were so frequent wouldn’t other historians have written about them? What about what happened at the end of Matthew where the dead walked the earth. Surely someone would have written about it. How about the proven fact that the end of Mark was expanded upon. It originally ended with the women running from the tomb nothing more.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Josephus, Tacitus, and a whole bunch of other historians say a Man called Jesus existed.
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NM505StKate
Guest
I am 95% certain that what was written by Josephus was added in later by a third party. As for Tacitus I will leave this link. wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Tacitus
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Abu
Guest
The guarantors provided by Christ have enabled the dissipation of the speculation on the Gospels so prevalent among the doubters.
“Since, therefore, all that the inspired authors, or sacred writers, affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error, teach the truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the sacred Scriptures.” [CCC #107].
“Since, therefore, all that the inspired authors, or sacred writers, affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error, teach the truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the sacred Scriptures.” [CCC #107].
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
Well, not a whole bunch, but Josephus certainly did.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
This is true and doesn’t affect the OP’s question one way or the other. Indeed the hollowness you describe probably contributed to Mr Dagood’s predicament.
Whilst I was content over the years to have a generic belief in God I allowed myself to get side-tracked by watered-down feel-good isolationist and/or sentimental viewpoints of “Christian” life. Now look at the knock on effects of my lack of effort over that period.
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AngelBerp
Guest
I agree 1000%.
I guess, at least between you and I, we’d have to clarify what it means to be dogmatic. If we mean something like “a definitive authoritative tenet or belief”, then Jesus was certainly dogmatic. He authoritatively taught many things and expects His followers to obey Him. Because Jesus attacked some teachings/dogmas of the Pharisees that were in error (like the Corban rule in Mark 7) doesn’t mean that all dogma is bad and it doesn’t even mean that all of the Pharisee’s dogma was bad.
Jesus did tell His followers: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do;…(because they act hypocritically)…”. (Matthew 23:2)
You bring up a question here to my mind that I have heard before but never taken the time to look into. I have heard it said, more than once, by both Catholic and non-Catholic Christians, that Jesus spent more time speaking about the reality of Hell than He did about the Kingdom of Heaven. Maybe someone else can chime in here if they have any insight on that.
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Abu
Guest
What a strange view of being dogmatic!
For the confused, Jesus was very clear re rejecting the errors of Pharisees and Scribes. That is why He associated with and helped the despised and downtrodden, and encouraged all to sin no more.
What Peccavi seems not to know is that Jesus is God and as God gave us His own Church:
**All four promises to Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].
**Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
So no one else was given this supreme authority given to Christ’s Supreme Vicar.
So from the first Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8). Why deny St John and St Paul too? The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels!
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