Believe is Shaken

[JB_Brother_4446]

Again the Gospels are not written by their purposed authors. I would if there was a big enough reason to not believe that Ceasar didn’t exist.

Have you read Papias?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Proof please that shows they were written prior to 70 CE. Because a majority of scholars disagree with you.

I was raised Catholic but now I am questioning. I look up facts and data and see where they lead me.

And why do you question Tradition?

 

[Abu]

NM505StKat #91
Proof please that shows they were written prior to 70 CE. Because a majority of scholars disagree with you.

I was raised Catholic but now I am questioning. I look up facts and data and see where they lead me

Well hardly “facts”, as failing to believe in the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth, and His Resurrection, is so silly when the only real evidence available of God’s miraculous action is through Christ’s Catholic Church, with the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically authenticated cures at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.

“Many who think they are thinking are merely rearranging their prejudices” – said that iconoclast, William James.

 

[NM505StKate]

Well hardly “facts”, as failing to believe in the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth, and His Resurrection, is so silly when the only real evidence available of God’s miraculous action is through Christ’s Catholic Church, with the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically authenticated cures at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.

“Many who think they are thinking are merely rearranging their prejudices” – said that iconoclast, William James.

First the “miracle of the sun” you do know that if you stare at the sun long enough you will see it doing odd things. Funny how no one else in the whole world noticed nor how the accounts differ so much. Also interesting that the girl who claimed to have seen things her mom said she was full of it. Also some of her 'fore tellings" were doing way after the fact of things happening.

Name a Eucharistic miracle please.

So no physical proof. Really with little proof it is hard to believe. JB I question tradition because I am curious as to how much is true.

Here we go. Links: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gospels

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_New_Testament#Mark

 

[Lily_Bernans]

First the “miracle of the sun” you do know that if you stare at the sun long enough you will see it doing odd things. Funny how no one else in the whole world noticed nor how the accounts differ so much. Also interesting that the girl who claimed to have seen things her mom said she was full of it. Also some of her 'fore tellings" were doing way after the fact of things happening.

Name a Eucharistic miracle please.

So no physical proof. Really with little proof it is hard to believe. JB I question tradition because I am curious as to how much is true.

Here we go. Links: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gospels

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_New_Testament#Mark

If you stare at the sun long enough for it to “do strange things,” you will go blind.

There is a book titled Eucharistic Miracles that details communion wafers turning to stone in the mounts of criminals with a mortal sin on their souls, etc. I’ve just flipped through it; some of my students have read it. They say it’s very compelling.

churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-extraordinary-eucharistic-miracles-with-pictures/

BTW, do you have that evidence that Christ never even existed?

Thanks!

P.S. Your Wiki links are outdated and wrong. Rational Wiki, like Wikipedia often is wrong since anyone can edit it and put in any information he or she wants. It’s really pretty useless. I would never use it or rely on information in it. Most people don’t.

 

[NM505StKate]

If you stare at the sun long enough for it to “do strange things,” you will go blind.

There is a book titled Eucharistic Miracles that details communion wafers turning to stone in the mounts of criminals with a mortal sin on their souls, etc. I’ve just flipped through it; some of my students have read it. They say it’s very compelling.

churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-extraordinary-eucharistic-miracles-with-pictures/

BTW, do you have that evidence that Christ never even existed?

Thanks!

P.S. Your Wiki links are outdated and wrong. Rational Wiki, like Wikipedia often is wrong since anyone can edit it and put in any information he or she wants. It’s really pretty useless. I would never use it or rely on information in it. Most people don’t.

Now these “miracles” happened before or after modern equipment came about that can record events? I was at mass and the priest told us of a recent story in Utah where a host supposedly turned into flesh. Turns out it was left out too long and grew mold. There are so little miracles now because modern recording equipment shows how false they are.

As for the Wiki’s I am fine using them.

 

[Thorolfr]

There is a book titled Eucharistic Miracles that details communion wafers turning to stone in the mounts of criminals with a mortal sin on their souls, etc. I’ve just flipped through it; some of my students have read it. They say it’s very compelling.

Are there any pictures of the stone wafers any place?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Are there any pictures of the stone wafers any place?

I honestly can’t remember. I didn’t read the book, just flipped through it.

Here it is:

amazon.com/Eucharistic-Miracles-Phenomena-Lives-Saints/dp/0895553031

 

[Abu]

NM505StKate #105
First the “miracle of the sun” you do know that if you stare at the sun long enough you will see it doing odd things. Funny how no one else in the whole world noticed nor how the accounts differ so much.

We are dealing with fact here, not fancy.

As Avelino deAlmeida, the chief editor of “O Seculo,” the large “liberal” anticlerical and masonic daily of Lisbon, writes:
‘Before the dazzled eyes of the people, whose attitude transported us to biblical times, and who, dumb-founded, heads uncovered, contemplated the blue of the sky, the sun trembled, it made strange and abrupt movements, outside of all cosmic laws, “the sun danced”, according to the typical expression of the peasants…(2)’

Attacked violently by all the anticlerical press, Avelino de Almeida renewed his testimony, fifteen days later, in his review, l “Ilustra‡ao Portuguesa”. This time he illustrated his account with a dozen photographs of the huge ecstatic crowd, and repeated as a refrain throughout his article: “I saw…I saw…I saw.” And he concluded fortuitously:** "Miracle, as the people shouted? Natural phenomenon, as the experts say? For the moment, that does not concern me, I am only saying what I saw… The rest is a matter for Science and the Church.”** (3) [My emphasis].
Note:
2) O Seculo of October 15, 1917.
3) Article of October 29, 1917.
See: THE DANCE OF THE SUN at:
catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/ch1-10.htm

As a fact of life, miracles are part of reason based on observation.

For those doubting – it cannot be real thought because Christ is very clear and historically real, as is the formation of His infallible teaching Church – they can easily come to know the reality of His truths, or remain in their self-satisfied state to be judged as only He can. Catholics here who dissent now know of the Church’s condemnation of such.

The real Catholic knows, believes and tries hard to live those truths gained through Christ’s Church.

Throughout much of his adult life Dr Alexis Carrel felt that Immanuel Kant had once and for all disposed of a rationally respectable belief in God, revelation, and – last but not least – miracles.

He went from being a skeptic of the visions and miracles reported at Lourdes to being a believer after experiencing a healing he could not explain. Alexis Carrel refused to discount a supernatural explanation and steadfastly reiterated his beliefs, For such an attitude toward Lourdes, Carrel was declared unwelcome in the medical establishment in free-thinking and anti-clerical Lyons. Their leaders had to eat humble pie upon Carrel’s return for a brief visit to France in 1912 with the halo of a Nobel Prize around his head. In a new edition by Real-View-Books, of The Voyage to Lourdes (1939) this realization is explained, with an introduction by Fr Stanley Jaki, winner of the Templeton Prize for 1987 for his work on science and religion, an honorary member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.
ewtn.com/library/MARY/VOYLOUR.HTM

Name a Eucharistic miracle please.

In Eucharistic Miracles, Joan Carroll Cruz, TAN Books, 1987, you will find 33 chapters factually describing many Eucharistic miracles, and 11 more chapters describing many more in the lives of the saints.

One that I have known for decades is that at Lanciano in Italy which is in Chapter 1, which occurred in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk’s doubt about Jesus’ Real Presence in the Eucharist.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

 

[Hicks]

Having read the original article, I have to say I’m surprised that you let this shake your faith so badly. It’s very badly reasoned, seeming to rely on the same trick of providing entirely imiginary scenarios of the “what if Peter was killed for starting a fire instead of for being a Christian?” or “What if the disciples really had tons of money” variety. What if indeed? Where does he find support for these flights of fancy? The charges are baseless, Your Honor.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Now these “miracles” happened before or after modern equipment came about that can record events? I was at mass and the priest told us of a recent story in Utah where a host supposedly turned into flesh. Turns out it was left out too long and grew mold. There are so little miracles now because modern recording equipment shows how false they are.

As for the Wiki’s I am fine using them.

The fact that you’re fine with Wikis that could be edited by a fifth grade child might be part of why you question and doubt. There is reliable evidence and unreliable evidence and questionable evidence. Wikis offer questionable and unreliable evidence at best and outright lies at worst.

Many miracles DO take place today. Not everyone experiences one, but they are a fairly common occurrence. I think you have miracles mixed up with ghosts. There is modern equipment that can detect the presence of spirits in so-called “haunted houses,” showing that NO house is haunted.

Do you think all of the very learned theologians attached to the Catholic Church can be duped? All the popes? Most are/were geniuses. Do you think everyone who has experienced a theophany or a miracle is lying? They aren’t.

You seem to not want to believe. Someone who doesn’t want to believe, is not open to the evidence can always find a reason to say “I don’t believe it,” whether it’s Jesus or Hillary Clinton’s emails, or an exotic animal that’s under discussion. But, of course the choice is yours. Jesus himself said, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed” (Jn 20:29). Questioning is good, but during questioning one must keep an open mind.

And, you still have yet to provide any evidence that Jesus did NOT exist. Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Having read the original article, I have to say I’m surprised that you let this shake your faith so badly. It’s very badly reasoned, seeming to rely on the same trick of providing entirely imiginary scenarios of the “what if Peter was killed for starting a fire instead of for being a Christian?” or “What if the disciples really had tons of money” variety. What if indeed? Where does he find support for these flights of fancy? The charges are baseless, Your Honor.

I agree. It’s a very poor and poorly written article.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Now these “miracles” happened before or after modern equipment came about that can record events? I was at mass and the priest told us of a recent story in Utah where a host supposedly turned into flesh. Turns out it was left out too long and grew mold. There are so little miracles now because modern recording equipment shows how false they are.

As for the Wiki’s I am fine using them.

So your reasoning is that because someone made a mistake about a miracle surely they must all be mistaken? That’s more of an a priori philosophical belief then actual sound reasoning about actual miracles. If you want a taste of just how many miracles there still are today, despite modern technology, and from a scholarly source read, “Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts”, by Craig S. Keener. You make it sound like before video cameras people were idiots and couldn’t be trusted. Yet, we know how easy it is to lie on video. They do it in the movies all the time. So you think cameras don’t lie?

 

[humble_catholic]

First the “miracle of the sun” you do know that if you stare at the sun long enough you will see it doing odd things. Funny how no one else in the whole world noticed nor how the accounts differ so much. Also interesting that the girl who claimed to have seen things her mom said she was full of it. Also some of her 'fore tellings" were doing way after the fact of things happening.

Name a Eucharistic miracle please.

So no physical proof. Really with little proof it is hard to believe. JB I question tradition because I am curious as to how much is true.

Here we go. Links: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gospels

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_New_Testament#Mark

The miracle of lanciano is one such miracle that science cant explain .
If you know something we don’t about it that explains it please let me know

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

First the “miracle of the sun” you do know that if you stare at the sun long enough you will see it doing odd things. Funny how no one else in the whole world noticed nor how the accounts differ so much. Also interesting that the girl who claimed to have seen things her mom said she was full of it. Also some of her 'fore tellings" were doing way after the fact of things happening.

Name a Eucharistic miracle please.

So no physical proof. Really with little proof it is hard to believe. JB I question tradition because I am curious as to how much is true.

Here we go. Links: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gospels

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_New_Testament#Mark

Scripture says, “Test everything.” It also says, “Blessed is he who is not ashamed of Me.”

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Scripture says, “Test everything.” It also says, “Blessed is he who is not ashamed of Me.”

So… do you believe or are you an unbeliever, Kate?

 

[NM505StKate]

I have questioned faith for a while and not just because of either the Rational Wiki or Iron Chariots. It started about a year or so ago. I heard some podcast that got me really angry for what they were saying. I used to be a Republican and this podcast said things that really got me. Well I listened more and joined a few Google+ groups were I was challenged about my beliefs. I still go to mass with my family but it is more for them than anything I get out of it.

I do have to admit listening to Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and others is rather wonderful. I do so love people like Seth Andrews and Aron Ra.

 

[PRmerger]

I have questioned faith for a while and not just because of either the Rational Wiki or Iron Chariots. It started about a year or so ago. I heard some podcast that got me really angry for what they were saying. I used to be a Republican and this podcast said things that really got me. Well I listened more and joined a few Google+ groups were I was challenged about my beliefs. I still go to mass with my family but it is more for them than anything I get out of it.

I do have to admit listening to Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and others is rather wonderful. I do so love people like Seth Andrews and Aron Ra.

That’s fine for you to question.

But before you leave your Catholic faith you should be able to correctly articulate what it is she professes, and why she professes it.

I doubt you could do that.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I have questioned faith for a while and not just because of either the Rational Wiki or Iron Chariots. It started about a year or so ago. I heard some podcast that got me really angry for what they were saying. I used to be a Republican and this podcast said things that really got me. Well I listened more and joined a few Google+ groups were I was challenged about my beliefs. I still go to mass with my family but it is more for them than anything I get out of it.

I do have to admit listening to Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and others is rather wonderful. I do so love people like Seth Andrews and Aron Ra.

You didn’t answer my question. It is a yes or no question.

 

[NM505StKate]

That’s fine for you to question.

But before you leave your Catholic faith you should be able to correctly articulate what it is she professes, and why she professes it.

I doubt you could do that.

You know there is, to me, no way to say what the Catholic faith says. Now I could be snarky but I won’t be.