Believe is Shaken

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“Since Adam and Eve were created in a state of high perfection, with the full complement of genetic material, this would have allowed substantial variety to arise quickly among human beings, who were free from inherited defects. Thus it would have taken a long time for the gene pool within mankind to become contaminated enough to prohibit intermarriage between relatives.

“Although incest was later forbidden by God at the time of Moses (Leviticus 18), procreation must have occurred, by definition, between the earliest human beings. Marriage between closely related human beings could not have been regarded as sinful by God at that time.” Creation Rediscovered, Gerard J Keane, TAN Books, 1999, p 85-86].

‘Darwinism was rejected by most French biologists, for example, including the late Dr. Pierre P. Grasse, president of the French Academy of Sciences, who called Darwinism “a pseudo-science” that is “either in conflict with reality or cannot solve the basic problems.” A group of prominent anti-Darwinists produced a technical volume called *Beyond Neo-Darwinism *in 1984, in which two American biologists, Gareth Nelson and Ron Platnick, wrote, “We believe that Darwinism . . . is, in short, a theory that has been put to the test and found false.” Molecular biologist Michael Denton weighed in with *Evolution: A Theory in Crisis *in 1986, in which he showed that recent developments in molecular biology are at complete variance with Darwinism. And, Michael Behe’s (Professor of Biochemistry) *Darwin’s Black Box *(1996) caused a stir by pointing out that Darwinian evolution is biochemically impossible.

‘Scientists and philosophers who disagree with Darwin who deny that small mutations guided by natural selection can add up to “macro” changes still call themselves “evolutionists” since they recognize that all life forms share basic genetic material and so may be descended from a single ancestor; but they are frank about not being able to explain how this happened. Some speculate that species undergo a “genetic snap” which produces new ones. This would mean that evolution was somehow “pre-programmed” in the DNA. This scenario sounds a lot like St. Augustine’s and is, of course, anathema to Darwinists because it points to a Programmer God.’
See George Sim Johnston, Envoy Magazine, Mar-April, ’97 at:
catholiceducation.org/en/science/faith-and-science/apes-r-not-us-catholics-and-the-debate-over-evolution.html
 
Science is sometimes wrong. When my parents went to high school, they learned that scientifically, the atom was the smallest particle in the universe. Then, along comes the Hadron Super Collider in Geneva, Switzerland and split the atom and out tumbled all these sub-atomic particles, and the scientists there now believe there are smaller particles than even those.

Yep, you can rely on ANYTHING science says.

Kate, you can’t. Don’t buy into that.
Actually that is what makes science so wonderful. Science is fine being wrong. Science is a method for finding facts. So if something new proves an old theory wrong science tosses the old theory and works with the new one. Absolutely nothing wrong with it… Actually Lily God does change. See the huge difference between the old testament and the new one. Huge differences.

Tantum: The problem with that is since god interacts with the physical world surely must follow physical laws. The whole “supernatrual” thing feels like an excuse. God is omnipotent correct? So since nothing is impossible to God we should have no issues in this world but we do. So is God not omnipotent?

Abu: Where are you getting that Adam and Eve were created in “a state of high perfection”. So not to break forum rules I am not going to comment further.

EDIT: I wish to correct myself. My path to questioning started after watching the Bill Nye, Ken Ham debate. It was through that that I found podcasts and such that got me to question more and more.
 
Abu - Don’t discuss anything even remotely concerned with evolution here. It is a banned topic.
 
God is absolutely unchangeable. The differences between the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament are in literary styles and interpretation and in God’s relationship with humanity.

God never changes. Never. He is absolutely unchangeable. He is the only thing that is.

catholicherald.com/stories/Old-New-Testament-same-God,15204

gotquestions.org/God-different.html

compellingtruth.org/God-different-OT-NT.html
So a being that couldn’t stop iron chariots, was okay with a man tossing his daughters out to be raped by a mod, another man doing the same thing with his female servant, who died, and then cut her into pieces to send to other tribes, didn’t stop Moses from having his own kin murder their own. This being changed remained the same?
 
So a being that couldn’t stop iron chariots, was okay with a man tossing his daughters out to be raped by a mod, another man doing the same thing with his female servant, who died, and then cut her into pieces to send to other tribes, didn’t stop Moses from having his own kin murder their own. This being changed remained the same?
Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God:D—no, seriously, don’t tempt Him. That was people, not God. The people who raped the girl were punished and the 3000 were slain because they worshipped a golden calf.

So why are you Catholic?
 
Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God:D—no, seriously, don’t tempt Him. That was people, not God. The people who raped the girl were punished and the 3000 were slain because they worshipped a golden calf.

So why are you Catholic?
👍 Absolutely. God gives people free will, but they will be held accountable for their actions.
 
Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God:D—no, seriously, don’t tempt Him. That was people, not God. The people who raped the girl were punished and the 3000 were slain because they worshipped a golden calf.

So why are you Catholic?
Thou Shalt Not Kill. So human life is second to insulting a “perfect” being? They were “punished” after a long battle. If it even happened. Same with Moses, if it even happened. No one is tempting anything. I am showing examples. How about the kids that were killed by bears just for calling someone bald?

I’m Catholic because I was raised one. Now though I am questioning.
 
Thou Shalt Not Kill. So human life is second to insulting a “perfect” being? They were “punished” after a long battle. If it even happened. Same with Moses, if it even happened. No one is tempting anything. I am showing examples. How about the kids that were killed by bears just for calling someone bald?

I’m Catholic because I was raised one. Now though I am questioning.
When you insult a prophet of God, you blaspheme God himself. Fear of the Lord, right? Scripture is not a historical book though some of the events actually happened, like Moses.
And those men had chosen their lot. Moses called those who were on the Lord’s side to stand with him. Those guys didn’t and condemned themselves. Fear of the Lord, right?
You need to do some re-reading.🤷

Human life is God’s and He decides who lives or dies. Where we go in the next life is determined by our actions.
 
Not only that, science is not the sole criterion for truth.

And truth is not solely proven by testing and observation.

Since God is SUPERnatural, as opposed to natural, there is no way that He can be proven ‘scientifically’. Does that mean that there is thus no way to ‘prove’ His existence? Or, to turn it around slightly, does the fact that God cannot be ‘scientifically’ proven under the standard of ‘test and observe’ mean that His existence is by definition false?
Exactly, and the reason I asked the question regarding the mention of “scientific fact” was because I was curious to know of any scientific evidence that has claimed to disprove the existence of God.
 
NM505StKate #143
since god interacts with the physical world surely must follow physical laws. The whole “supernatrual” thing feels like an excuse. God is omnipotent correct? So since nothing is impossible to God we should have no issues in this world but we do. So is God not omnipotent?
Your problem is in rejecting the reality that the omnipotent God created Adam and Eve in a world in harmony, and with free-will. Having chosen to disobey God’s command they suffered the consequences.

The inability to reason based on reality causes myopic dilemmas.
Abu: Where are you getting that Adam and Eve were created in “a state of high perfection”. So not to break forum rules I am not going to comment further.
The world and everything in it was created for the benefit of mankind, as good, and Adam was given a specific order/warning NOT to commit a specific act, which he disobeyed, losing for his descendants Sanctifying Grace, Integrity, Immortality, Happiness, and Enlightenment. Justice, charity and hope were restored in the Redemption by God the Son.

Adam failed himself and God, resulting in his downfall. God acted to punish disobedience as forewarned, in His super human being and his descendants. Without punishment from God evil would run riot and thus the obvious examples of Sodom etc. as fair warning. The devil entices to evil. Failure to accept the facts is no excuse for confusion. Obviously God acts with the perfection of His infinite goodness.

Any attempt to deny free-will to act for good or evil is totally unreasonable. Naturally, failing to examine and to accept these facts results in confusion and false conclusions.
#149
I’m Catholic because I was raised one. Now though I am questioning.
Questioning based on false assumptions, without knowing the fundamentals of Christ’s Life and Resurrection, of the miracles and the reality of His Church and the Sacred Scriptures which She gave us, can result only in chaos.
 
Your problem is in rejecting the reality that the omnipotent God created Adam and Eve in a world in harmony, and with free-will. Having chosen to disobey God’s command they suffered the consequences.

The inability to reason based on reality causes myopic dilemmas.
The world and everything in it was created for the benefit of mankind, as good, and Adam was given a specific order/warning NOT to commit a specific act, which he disobeyed, losing for his descendants Sanctifying Grace, Integrity, Immortality, Happiness, and Enlightenment. Justice, charity and hope were restored in the Redemption by God the Son.

Adam failed himself and God, resulting in his downfall. God acted to punish disobedience as forewarned, in His super human being and his descendants. Without punishment from God evil would run riot and thus the obvious examples of Sodom etc. as fair warning. The devil entices to evil. Failure to accept the facts is no excuse for confusion. Obviously God acts with the perfection of His infinite goodness.

Any attempt to deny free-will to act for good or evil is totally unreasonable. Naturally, failing to examine and to accept these facts results in confusion and false conclusions.

Questioning based on false assumptions, without knowing the fundamentals of Christ’s Life and Resurrection, of the miracles and the reality of His Church and the Sacred Scriptures which She gave us, can result only in chaos.
👍
 
Arthur Koestler ( a former Communist and novelist of some repute in Europe) described how one day as a teenager he lay on his back looking up at the sky. His mind turned what what would happen to an arrow if it shot through the sky into space, passed the moon, the sun, the planets, the nebulae, the solar system, the universe and carried on it …there he had to stop because the where was unknowable. It was Infinite and an eternity away.
Human beings are capable of amazing insights into the physical universe but beyond that they are lost sheep.
 
God is absolutely unchangeable.
No. If He were absolutely unchangeable then He could not have created the world. Twenty billion years ago He had not yet triggered the Bib Bang. He changed from “I will trigger the Big Bang” to “I am triggering the Big Bang” to “I have triggered the Big Bang”. Any action requires change from “I will act” to “I am acting” to “I have acted”. Without that change He is stuck at “I will act” and the action never takes place.

An unchanging entity is either unable to act, or can only repeat the same unchanging actions over and over and over. The God of the Bible is not such an entity. If He were, then Genesis would read something like:

On the first day, God said, “Let there be light,” and on the second day, God said, “Let there be light,” and on the third day, God said, “Let there be light,” and on the fourth day …

There are huge philosophical problems with an absolutely unchanging God.

rossum
 
No. If He were absolutely unchangeable then He could not have created the world. Twenty billion years ago He had not yet triggered the Bib Bang. He changed from “I will trigger the Big Bang” to “I am triggering the Big Bang” to “I have triggered the Big Bang”. Any action requires change from “I will act” to “I am acting” to “I have acted”. Without that change He is stuck at “I will act” and the action never takes place.

An unchanging entity is either unable to act, or can only repeat the same unchanging actions over and over and over. The God of the Bible is not such an entity. If He were, then Genesis would read something like:

On the first day, God said, “Let there be light,” and on the second day, God said, “Let there be light,” and on the third day, God said, “Let there be light,” and on the fourth day …

There are huge philosophical problems with an absolutely unchanging God.

rossum
No. There are huge philosophical problems with a changeable God. You have it backwards. At least for Catholics, and this is a Catholic site. God is totally and absolutely unchangeable:

amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Newsletter-Winter2004-unchangeable-God

God lives in timelessness, so to him, the earth always was and always will be. He has no beginning and no end. For God, linear time does not exist, and there will come a time when for man, as well, linear time will cease.

Catholic site on the unchangeable character of God:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34109

“Absolute changelessness. That is mutable which goes from one condition to another. In consequence of its finite nature, every creature is mutable. God is unchangeable because he is infinite. Mutability implies potentiality, composition, and imperfection, and is therefore not reconcilable with God as pure actuality, the absolutely simple and infinitely perfect Being. When God acts outside of himself, as in the creation of the world, he does not produce a new effect in himself, but enters on a new realization of the eternal decision of his divine will. The decree of creation is as eternal and immutable as the Divine Essence with which it is really identical; only its effect, the created world, is temporal and changeable. (Etym. Latin immutabilis, unchangeable; changeless.)”
 
No. There are huge philosophical problems with a changeable God. You have it backwards. At least for Catholics, and this is a Catholic site. God is totally and absolutely unchangeable:
Then God is totally and absolutely unable to act.
God lives in timelessness,
But the earth does not. Change is by definition difference in time, so if God is outside time, then God cannot cause any change. Change requires difference in time. If there is no difference in time, then there is no change.

This problem has been thought about for a very long time. The Gnostics tried a system of demiurges to mediate between an unchanging God and His changing actions in this world. The Jews developed the sephirot to deal with the same problem.

Did God part the Red Sea for Moses? Is the Red Sea parted today? Then at some point God stopped parting the Red Sea and let the waters flow back together. How is that not a change?

rossum
 
Then God is totally and absolutely unable to act.

But the earth does not. Change is by definition difference in time, so if God is outside time, then God cannot cause any change. Change requires difference in time. If there is no difference in time, then there is no change.

This problem has been thought about for a very long time. The Gnostics tried a system of demiurges to mediate between an unchanging God and His changing actions in this world. The Jews developed the sephirot to deal with the same problem.

Did God part the Red Sea for Moses? Is the Red Sea parted today? Then at some point God stopped parting the Red Sea and let the waters flow back together. How is that not a change?

rossum
You aren’t separating the creation from the Creator. When the Red Sea parted, God, himself did not change. The sea changed. I never said the sea did not change. Sure it did. But God did not change.

If you read the links I posted it should be clear.

If your religion says God changes, I respect that, but you will never find an educated Catholic who says God changes. He never changes even though he is capable of bring about change. If he were changeable, it would wound his nature. And the changes he brings about have been willed by God from eternity.
 
Your problem is in rejecting the reality that the omnipotent God created Adam and Eve in a world in harmony, and with free-will. Having chosen to disobey God’s command they suffered the consequences.

The inability to reason based on reality causes myopic dilemmas.
The world and everything in it was created for the benefit of mankind, as good, and Adam was given a specific order/warning NOT to commit a specific act, which he disobeyed, losing for his descendants Sanctifying Grace, Integrity, Immortality, Happiness, and Enlightenment. Justice, charity and hope were restored in the Redemption by God the Son.

Adam failed himself and God, resulting in his downfall. God acted to punish disobedience as forewarned, in His super human being and his descendants. Without punishment from God evil would run riot and thus the obvious examples of Sodom etc. as fair warning. The devil entices to evil. Failure to accept the facts is no excuse for confusion. Obviously God acts with the perfection of His infinite goodness.

Any attempt to deny free-will to act for good or evil is totally unreasonable. Naturally, failing to examine and to accept these facts results in confusion and false conclusions.

Questioning based on false assumptions, without knowing the fundamentals of Christ’s Life and Resurrection, of the miracles and the reality of His Church and the Sacred Scriptures which She gave us, can result only in chaos.
👍
 
You aren’t separating the creation from the Creator. When the Red Sea parted, God, himself did not change. The sea changed. I never said the sea did not change. Sure it did. But God did not change.

If you read the links I posted it should be clear.

If your religion says God changes, I respect that, but you will never find an educated Catholic who says God changes. He never changes even though he is capable of bring about change. If he were changeable, it would wound his nature. And the changes he brings about have been willed by God from eternity.
👍
 
You aren’t separating the creation from the Creator.
Then we have two separate entities: God, who is unchanging, and God’s actions, which do change. One single entity cannot both be changing and unchanging. Since they are separate entities, then God is still unable to act, since the actions are all down to the changing entity.

In particular the act of creation is down to the second entity, not to the original unchanging God. The unchanging God is not, and cannot be, a creator since the act of creation requires change.

You will have to go through all the applicable properties of the compound “God and His actions” to separate them out into properties of the unchanging God and properties of God’s changing actions. You will find that your unchanging God has a many fewer properties than is often assumed.
When the Red Sea parted, God, himself did not change.
Then the change in the sea was not done by god, but by the separate entity God’s actions.

What you are doing here is starting out on the philosophical path that least to the Jewish sephirot or the Gnostic Demiurge. By separating God from His actions you have two separate entities to deal with, and a great deal of work to do.

rossum
 
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