Believe it .....or else!

[TLM08]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.

 

[AKG]

The difficulty you are having is based upon the images that have been traditionally used to speak of such metaphysical realities as “heaven,” “hell,” and “purgatory.” Many of the images we bear of red devils with horns, goatees and pitchforks, and souls crying out amid flames and burning sulfur are the stuff of our collective historical, mythological and literary imagination.

What we call “hell” is best understood as an ultimate and eternal separation from union with God and with others. Consequently, one is united only with self, in isolation. And this unity is achieved through the misuse of one’s free will, the greatest gift that God has bestowed upon humanity, through the ultimate refusal of sacramental grace that has been extended to us in Christ.

The mistake that some have made is to repudiate the reality of hell, to presume that the grace of God is irresistable, and that we have but limited accountablity or responsibility for the moral choices which we make in life.

 

[Deum_quaerens]

The difficulty you are having is based upon the images that have been traditionally used to speak of such metaphysical realities as “heaven,” “hell,” and “purgatory.” Many of the images we bear of red devils with horns, goatees and pitchforks, and souls crying out amid flames and burning sulfur are the stuff of our collective historical, mythological and literary imagination.

What we call “hell” is best understood as an ultimate and eternal separation from union with God and with others. Consequently, one is united only with self, in isolation.

“The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew xiii, 41–42)

God is properly called the “Father of mercies” (II Corinthians i, 3), having declared time and time again His infinite mercy for those who love Him and fear His judgments: “The mercy of the Lord is from eternity and unto eternity upon them that fear him” (Ps. cii, 17) “Many sins are forgiven her, because she hath loved much.” (Luke vii, 47)

But we use the free will which the Good Lord has endowed us with to offend him grievously. I think that we can barely realize, in this life, how grave even the slightest sin is. Our Creator so loves us that in His mercy, He Himself bore for us, in the most gruesome way, the death that ought to have been ours many times over. It is only just that the sin of refusing His infinite love and mercy should be punished eternally in Hell; how could God’s justice otherwise be called perfect? Such torments are more than deserved, on account of the gravity of the sin.

 

[AKG]

“The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew xiii, 41–42)

God is properly called the “Father of mercies” (II Corinthians i, 3), having declared time and time again His infinite mercy for those who love Him and fear His judgments: “The mercy of the Lord is from eternity and unto eternity upon them that fear him” (Ps. cii, 17) “Many sins are forgiven her, because she hath loved much.” (Luke vii, 47)

But we use the free will which the Good Lord has endowed us with to offend him grievously. I think that we can barely realize, in this life, how grave even the slightest sin is. Our Creator so loves us that in His mercy, He Himself bore for us, in the most gruesome way, the death that ought to have been ours many times over. It is only just that the sin of refusing His infinite love and mercy should be punished eternally in Hell; how could God’s justice otherwise be called perfect? Such torments are more than deserved, on account of the gravity of the sin.

Keeping with this same line of thought it must be noted that part of the difficulty some people are experiencing with the traditional notions and imagery of “hell” is that it is very common for people to presume that they are in right relationship with God in community and that heaven is something that is due them because they consider themselves good people (i.e. defined loosely as keeping the Commandments and obeying to the letter the rules as prescribed by Holy Mother Church). This is nothing more than the sin of presumption. As Catholics, heaven is our hope, and we should never presume that we are destined for heaven this side of eternity. We must always bear in mind that God, while infinitely merciful is perfectly holy and just, and we are not. Our faith should be lived out in humility of heart, and we should strive to avoid all arrogant presumptiveness.

 

[fhansen]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.

**No, it would be like warning your child not to play with a cigarette lighter lest they be burned. Adam & Eve had that choice. We still do today.
**

 

[MindOverMatter]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simply not logical. If Christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.


It depends on the context in which you express such a view. If your trusted doctor said to you that you have only one day to live unless you take a pill of some sort, this would not be a threat; it is not being said in malice, but rather it is said for your benefit. It is true that one would have to trust that the doctor is speaking truth; however, lack of knowledge is not necessarily cause for distrust. In any case, i believe that there is a foundation of evidence for a view such as hell; and if we care about people, it is only natural that we warn them about it. Hell is a philosophically valid concept that is unfortunately aesthetically unpleasant. It is no wonder people try to hide the reality of it behind poor theology. Who really wants to believe it? Atheists don’t want to believe it, and they think they can escape it by telling the world that it doesn’t exist. It is a pleasant idea for some neo-atheists to think that theists are trying to brainwash and scare people in to believing in God. They think that it will benefit them to make the world think that the Christian religion is evil; thinking that the fret of hell will disappear as a result. They try to achieve this through various methods of propaganda; such as making themselves look like the innocent victims of some religious dictatorship that ended in the dark ages.

 

[Daedelus76]

I think it’s a bit of a mystery what Hell is, and I leave it at that. That’s why I’m not Catholic. I don’t assume anybody is beyond God’s grace, nor do I assume I deserve heaven, but I trust in God justice and love. (yes, that’s probably “fideism”)

Hell’s not artually a doctrine of the Anglican Communion in their 39 Articles. I’ve even heard some Orthodox say it is not really all that important in their theology beyond the reality of justice. They take a more therapeutic, rather than “juridical” view of religion. Some Orthodox believe everything will be restorted to the way it was suppossed to be.

In this modern day and age, overemphasis of Hell, rather than the love of God, does indeed scared some people away from religion. I’ve seen it happen, there are well meaning people who say “You worship a God that sends people to hell”. One thing I’ve read/listened to about Muslims who converted to Christianity, most of whom became Protestants, they liked the fact there was more certainty in Christianity than Islam, where even the Prophet Muhammed is guaranteed nothing. It’s reduced to just following rules and somehow everything is suppossed to turn out right… if you are lucky.

 

[AndyF]

The difficulty you are having is based upon the images that have been traditionally used to speak of such metaphysical realities as “heaven,” “hell,” and “purgatory.” Many of the images we bear of red devils with horns, goatees and pitchforks, and souls crying out amid flames and burning sulfur are the stuff of our collective historical, mythological and literary imagination.

Gnashing of teeth, unquenchable fire isn’t a Vegas, (although some would say this metaphore fits,)

Sorry, but hell is social and beings there definitely have free reign to act out their desires. Nothing individual about it. Sensual bodies, which we still have could be liberated from their entrails and limbs are freely removed at will and then rebuilt for a next round as God promised. Fire consumes all there and every person has a niche with his own personal tormentor. (St. Thomas & Fatima).

Purgatory may be a close approximation of what you say.

and with others.

Others of his own kind excepted. I envisage a very cramped mass of writhing bodies jostling for some position of comfort.

The mistake that some have…

Agree

Andy

 

[Ender]

why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever?

This is a misunderstanding of what authority the Church has. Moral law does not originate from the Church; her task is to transmit God’s laws to man, not create the laws herself.

"The knowledge which the Church offers to man has its origin not in any speculation of her own, however sublime, but in the word of God which she has received in faith." (Fides et Ratio #7)

"The Church gratefully accepts and lovingly preserves the entire deposit of Revelation, treating it with religious respect and fulfilling* her mission of authentically interpreting God’s law*** in the light of the Gospel." (Veritatis Splendor #45)
*
“As Teacher, she never tires of proclaiming the moral norm … The Church is in no way the author or the arbitor of this norm*.” (VS #95)

One of the most revealing sentences in his letter on the ordination of women (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) is this: “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women…” Just so: the Church has no authority to change the laws that God has instituted.

Ender

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Daedalus

Hell’s not artually a doctrine of the Anglican Communion in their 39 Articles. I’ve even heard some Orthodox say it is not really all that important in their theology beyond the reality of justice. They take a more therapeutic, rather than “juridical” view of religion. Some Orthodox believe everything will be restorted to the way it was suppossed to be.

Is this more cafeteria Christianity? You pick and choose what you want to believe? Then what do you do when you read these words spoken by Jesus himself?

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

Does Jesus say, “Well, let me amend that. I mean I will deny him for a while, but later I will restore him? Not to worry.”

Sounds to me like you’re talking more about purgatory than hell.

 

[severntofall]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.

You are correct that hell is an utterly absurd notion that no just loving being would tolerate (let alone create). Hell is simply the worlds most effective method of extortion, as even though it clearly does not exist it none-the-less exterts an effect on people. Hell is infinite evil: suffering for a billion times a billion times a billion years and that’s not even 1% of it. It effects many people who deep down know it’s hog wash but still fear that just maybe it might possibly be true. Until hell, the worst thing you could threaten a person with was death, now you can threaten them with pain that will follow them beyond this mortal plane. It’s the perfection of intimidation but luckly it doesn’t exist.

 

[severntofall]

The difficulty you are having is based upon the images that have been traditionally used to speak of such metaphysical realities as “heaven,” “hell,” and “purgatory.” Many of the images we bear of red devils with horns, goatees and pitchforks, and souls crying out amid flames and burning sulfur are the stuff of our collective historical, mythological and literary imagination.

What we call “hell” is best understood as an ultimate and eternal separation from union with God and with others. Consequently, one is united only with self, in isolation. And this unity is achieved through the misuse of one’s free will, the greatest gift that God has bestowed upon humanity, through the ultimate refusal of sacramental grace that has been extended to us in Christ.

The mistake that some have made is to repudiate the reality of hell, to presume that the grace of God is irresistable, and that we have but limited accountablity or responsibility for the moral choices which we make in life.

If your source for hell is the bible, the here’s what hell is:

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:30 (god casts you into hell)

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-44 ** (it is a physical location where the pain is physical)**

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:49-50 ** (it is a physical location where the pain is physical)**
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 3:10 ** (it is a physical location where the pain is physical)**

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13 ** (it is a physical location where the pain is physical)**

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10
ETC.

 

[miguel]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.

Mathew 16:19 “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

If the creator of the universe can, uh, create the universe, I think he can find a way to help these sinful men not bind on earth what he doesn’t want bound in heaven, and not loose on earth what he doesn’t want loosed in heaven.

 

[anon5216]

**No, it would be like warning your child not to play with a cigarette lighter lest they be burned. Adam & Eve had that choice. We still do today.
**

Bad analogy.

The child may or may not get burned by the cigarette lighter, and if they do the consequences do not last eternally.

Not only that, but the consequences are the direct result of the dangerous playing.

This has nothing to do with parents judging the child for having played with the lighter, and then applying “extreme rendition” to hell for eternity for the sin of having disobeyed.

 

[fhansen]

Bad analogy.

The child may or may not get burned by the cigarette lighter, and if they do the consequences do not last eternally.

Not only that, but the consequences are the direct result of the dangerous playing.

This has nothing to do with parents judging the child for having played with the lighter, and then applying “extreme rendition” to hell for eternity for the sin of having disobeyed.

**The point was that God wasn’t holding the cigarette lighter, maybe even hoping to burn the offenders as they disobeyed Him. He simply gave them a gift of freedom so radical they could disobey Him but then warned them that to disobey the very wisdom behind the creation of the universe-including the creation of their own natures- will ruin their lives. Man thought his life would be better if he accepted no limitations whatsoever-if he had complete authority over his own life. In Catholic theology, this life we’ve been cast into can singe us but not annihilate us. Here we know both good and evil and have the opportunity to learn that one exists who deserves our obedience because He alone is perfect goodness and holds perfect Wisdom regarding cigarette lighters and any thing else that may cause our destruction. And the cause of our destruction is simply this- to separate ourselves from the source of our life-by separating ourselves from His will. Because this disposition made possible all moral evil that’s occurred in this world.
**

 

[steve_b]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence.

Good
TLM:

However, why would a loving and all powerful *God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings *

Your 1st statement was, you don’t question what Jesus taught … correct?
Who are you specifically referring to in this second statement?
TLM:

and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

What is giving you trouble?
TLM:

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good

You mean like the following?

"make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.[2 Pet 1:5…]
TLM:

then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin.

That analogy you use is NOT accurate. For example

If you are warned not to speed or you might drive off a cliff in your car and die, and you speed anyway and drive off the cliff, would you blame

• God for creating the cliff
• God for creating cause and effects, i.e. consequences
• the person who warns you by scaring you with bad consequences for speeding
• the car for causing you to speed
• the car manufacturer
• etc etc etc

It’s like

When God confronted Adam after he committed the first sin.

Adam was told IN ADVANCE not to do a particular thing. It wouldn’t matter what that “thing” was. Adam was called to be obedient to God and if he wasn’t there was a consequence… And Adam knew what the consequence was

What did Adam say after he disobeyed? Gee I’m sorry it’s my fault, I won’t do that again? .

Nope, He said to God it was the woman YOU gave me caused me to disobey… IOW He blamed Eve AND formost, he blamed God for his sin. Sheesh !!! :doh2:

As we can see, Adam’s fall/fault, plays itself out throughout human history.

• We resist authority and obedience to authority from God OR his instruments,
• we resist consequences to disobedience as illogical, unreasonable etc etc etc.
• we don’t accept blame for doing wrong and would rather blame others

TLM:

*** it doesn’t make sense.***

In context, who used that argument 1st?

It was used against Adam and Eve to get them to commit the first sin. It was Satan. [Gen 3:1-4]

And that argument is still VERY effective to get people to continually disobey

 

[anon5216]

…
TLM08;5033915:

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.

That analogy you use is NOT accurate. For example

If you are warned not to speed or you might drive off a cliff in your car and die, and you speed anyway and drive off the cliff, would you blame

• God for creating the cliff
• God for creating cause and effects, i.e. consequences
• the person who warns you by scaring you with bad consequences for speeding
• the car for causing you to speed
• the car manufacturer
• etc etc etc

…

• We resist authority and obedience to authority from God OR his instruments,
• we resist consequences to disobedience as illogical, unreasonable etc etc etc.
• we don’t accept blame for doing wrong and would rather blame others

…

I’m afraid I have to agree with TLM on the analogy front.

Steve’s falls flat:
Under his analogy, someone who was slightly going above a posted (by “authority”) speed limit, but doesn’t cause any accidents or misfortune; doesn’t go anywhere near a cliff and certainly doesn’t drive off one - still gets punished in hell for all of eternity for the sin of disobedience to “authority”.
It’s so obviously a poor analogy, I can’t comprehend why he posted it as a refutation of TLM’s analogy at all. TLM wins hands down - no contest whatsoever.

A title conveyed on a fallible human by other fallible humans does not in any way, shape, or form an “instrument of God” guarantee.

 

[AKG]

Gnashing of teeth, unquenchable fire isn’t a Vegas, (although some would say this metaphore fits,)

Sorry, but hell is social and beings there definitely have free reign to act out their desires. Nothing individual about it. Sensual bodies, which we still have could be liberated from their entrails and limbs are freely removed at will and then rebuilt for a next round as God promised. Fire consumes all there and every person has a niche with his own personal tormentor. (St. Thomas & Fatima).

Purgatory may be a close approximation of what you say.

Others of his own kind excepted. I envisage a very cramped mass of writhing bodies jostling for some position of comfort.

Agree

Andy

While our rich Catholic tradition is filled with a variety of images of heaven, hell, and purgatory, they remain just that…images. We are symbolic beings and express what is mysterious and inexpressible using the language of myth and metaphor. Our understanding and experience of our faith is constantly emerging and developing, lived and practiced in history. As we, the Body of Christ, continually reflect upon our rich Catholic tradition and upon Sacred Scripture in light of historical, social, scientific progress, our understanding and interpretation of it unfolds.

 

[AKG]

If your source for hell is the bible, the here’s what hell is:

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:30 (god casts you into hell)

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-44 ** (it is a physical location where the pain is physical)**

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:49-50 ** (it is a physical location where the pain is physical)**
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 3:10 ** (it is a physical location where the pain is physical)**

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13 ** (it is a physical location where the pain is physical)**

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10
ETC.

Just a point of clarification, the Roman Catholic faith does not teach, and has never taught the doctrine of “sola scriptura.” While the above may be quotes from Sacred Scripture, Roman Catholics are obligated to gain an understanding and interpretation of such passages within their cultural, historical, literary and theological contexts. Few, if any modern Catholic biblical scholars and theologians, who have poured over such texts, would interpret these as defining hell as a “physical location” or would assert that God “casts” anyone into “hell.” While we do believe in the Resurrection of the body, we do not spell out such a mystery of faith in absolute terms. Traditionally, there has been an understanding of the “pain of loss,” and the “pain of sense,” but these ideas, too, are part of our ever unfolding experience of the dynamic Catholic faith.

 

[steve_b]

I’m afraid I have to agree with TLM on the analogy front.

Steve’s falls flat:
Under his analogy, someone who was slightly going above a posted (by “authority”) speed limit, but doesn’t cause any accidents or misfortune; doesn’t go anywhere near a cliff and certainly doesn’t drive off one - still gets punished in hell for all of eternity for the sin of disobedience to “authority”.
It’s so obviously a poor analogy, I can’t comprehend why he posted it as a refutation of TLM’s analogy at all. TLM wins hands down - no contest whatsoever.

A title conveyed on a fallible human by other fallible humans does not in any way, shape, or form an “instrument of God” guarantee.

You change what is written AND have trouble comprehending what IS written.

I said

"If you are warned not to speed or you might drive off a cliff in your car and die, and you speed anyway and drive off the cliff, would you blame "

If you want to talk about light vs heavy offenses and corresponding consequences, fine…bring it on. Scripture is clear on both. One can land one in hell the other does not.

You apparantly didn’t learn that there are differences in offenses and corresponding consequences, and apparantly still don’t know the difference