Believe it .....or else!

[tm30]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

Why would a loving and powerful God expect people to believe in Him and hide from their five senses?

Does that make much sense?

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good

When did that become the barometer of Christian love? A pedophile believes in his heart that molesting children is “true and good”. How is that Christian love?

then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life.

Then you reject the Old Testament?

It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.

It does if holding a cigarette lighter under their chin stops them from getting into a car with the pedophile who thinks his perversion is “true and good”.

 

[tm30]

You are correct that hell is an utterly absurd notion that no just loving being would tolerate (let alone create). Hell is simply the worlds most effective method of extortion, as even though it clearly does not exist it none-the-less exterts an effect on people. Hell is infinite evil: suffering for a billion times a billion times a billion years and that’s not even 1% of it. It effects many people who deep down know it’s hog wash but still fear that just maybe it might possibly be true. Until hell, the worst thing you could threaten a person with was death, now you can threaten them with pain that will follow them beyond this mortal plane. It’s the perfection of intimidation but luckly it doesn’t exist.

Hell is not a creation. Hell is the eternal privation of God. What you are demonstrating for us is merely the temporal form.

 

[RosaryFan]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.

God does not SEND anyone to hell. The soul in question CHOOSES it. If we choose to reject God, we cannot be in Heaven with God. Therefore, hell is the choice made by the soul who is rejecting God.

 

[anon5216]

You change what is written AND have trouble comprehending what IS written.

I said

"If you are warned not to speed or you might drive off a cliff in your car and die, and you speed anyway and drive off the cliff, would you blame "

I changed not a word of what you wrote. It is all direct quote excerpts from your own post.
I pointed out that what you wrote does not support your claims, and why. There is no problem of comprehension on my end.

If you want to talk about light vs heavy offenses and corresponding consequences, fine…bring it on. Scripture is clear on both. One can land one in hell the other does not.

You apparantly didn’t learn that there are differences in offenses and corresponding consequences, and apparantly still don’t know the difference

On the contrary, it is Christianity - as presented by you and many others - that tends to lump all kinds of levels of offenses under the disobedience umbrella - with eternity in hell as consequence.

You are the one who wrote this:

…
Adam was told IN ADVANCE not to do a particular thing. It wouldn’t matter what that “thing” was. Adam was called to be obedient to God and if he wasn’t there was a consequence. …

You are clearly claiming the crime is disobedience.
Your analogy does not in any way describe a crime of disobedience.

 

[steve_b]

I changed not a word of what you wrote. It is all direct quote excerpts from your own post.
I pointed out that what you wrote does not support your claims, and why. There is no problem of comprehension on my end.

What I said allowed for free will. What You said I wrote didn’t allow for free will. THAT’S how you changed what I wrote.

anon:

On the contrary, it is Christianity - as presented by you and many others - that tends to lump all kinds of levels of offenses under the disobedience umbrella - with eternity in hell as consequence.

Are you trying to argue against the realities of cause and effects?

anon:

You are clearly claiming the crime is disobedience.

I’m claiming you have a choice. You can choose to obey or you can choose to disobey. But don’t pretend there are no consequences to your choices

anon:

Your analogy does not in any way describe a crime of disobedience.

It most certainly DOES

 

[AndyF]

While our rich Catholic tradition is filled with a variety of images of heaven, hell, and purgatory, they remain just that…images. We are symbolic beings and express what is mysterious and inexpressible using the language of myth and metaphor. Our understanding and experience of our faith is constantly emerging and developing, lived and practiced in history. As we, the Body of Christ, continually reflect upon our rich Catholic tradition and upon Sacred Scripture in light of historical, social, scientific progress, our understanding and interpretation of it unfolds.

Notwithstanding the occasional revelations that God sees fit to Saints and select individuals. This may manifest by true experiences, not conceptual images. Also, I should think we need to consider we render a disservice to these terrified people who were just as uncomfortable and unhappy about reporting them to an unreceptive world, but obtained certification from the Vatican nonetheless.

AndyF

 

[anon5216]

What I said allowed for free will. What You said I wrote didn’t allow for free will. THAT’S how you changed what I wrote.

Again, I quoted you verbatim - no changes made.

Are you trying to argue against the realities of cause and effects?

Not at all, the effect of driving your car off of a tall cliff at high speed is most likely death.
I’m merely arguing for connecting proper causes and effects together.

I’m claiming you have a choice. You can choose to obey or you can choose to disobey. But don’t pretend there are no consequences to your choices

Then you agree with my statement that you are claiming the crime is ‘disobedience’.

It most certainly DOES

If you say so, I guess that would be true in your case then.

 

[steve_b]

Again, I quoted you verbatim - no changes made.

It’s what you edit

anon:

Not at all, the effect of driving your car off of a tall cliff at high speed is most likely death.
I’m merely arguing for connecting proper causes and effects together.

I talked about light and heavy offenses and that there are corresponding consequences. Did you miss it? . Post #20

anon:

Then you agree with my statement that you are claiming the crime is ‘disobedience’.

I called it disobedience in post 16. It appears you agree with ME
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5073160&postcount=16

But you edited that part out :tsktsk:
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5075825&postcount=17

specifically you removed (emphasis mine for purposes of this point)

:

It’s like When God confronted Adam after he committed the first sin.

Adam was told IN ADVANCE not to do a particular thing. It wouldn’t matter what that “thing” was. Adam was called to be obedient to God and if he wasn’t there was a consequence… And Adam knew what the consequence was

What did Adam say after he disobeyed? Gee I’m sorry it’s my fault, I won’t do that again? .

Nope, He said to God it was the woman YOU gave me caused me to disobey… IOW He blamed Eve AND formost, he blamed God for his sin. Sheesh !!! :doh2:

anon:

If you say so, I guess that would be true in your case then.

here’s the sequence of the conversation

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5073160&postcount=16

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5075825&postcount=17

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5076710&postcount=20


http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5082619&postcount=25

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5089733&postcount=27

 

[DanteAlighieri]

What we call “hell” is best understood as an ultimate and eternal separation from union with God and with others. Consequently, one is united only with self, in isolation. And this unity is achieved through the misuse of one’s free will, the greatest gift that God has bestowed upon humanity, through the ultimate refusal of sacramental grace that has been extended to us in Christ.

It is important to note that you are leaving out the Church’s teaching about the “pain of sense” as distinguished from the “pain of loss”. There is actual physical suffering in hell.

(Source)

Peace,
Dante

 

[SimonArizona]

It’s more like, become clean or else!
"nothing unpure shall enter heaven’-Revelation.
We are washed clean in the blood of the lamb.

 

[anon5216]

steve,

The real world analogy you presented: driving a speeding car off a cliff;
in no way corresponds to the disobedience story you presented:
the ancient Jewish mythology about Adam & Eve & the talking serpent & the authoritarian god.

 

[fhansen]

It’s more like, become clean or else!
"nothing unpure shall enter heaven’-Revelation.
We are washed clean in the blood of the lamb.

**I think the best way to put would be, “Love, or else”-which just means that 1)we’re not the boss, and 2)the Boss, being a good boss, just expects us to do the right thing-and why not?
**

 

[CSUNGerrie]

Christ taught about a place called Hell. Therefore I don’t question it’s existence. However, why would a loving and all powerful God put all moral authority in the hands of a few sinful human beings and then require all of humanity to either believe and obey these men or burn in Hell forever? It’s simly not logical.

If christian love and faith come from knowing in the heart that something is true and good then threats, fear, and intimidation cannot be part of a healthy spiritual life. It would be like asking your child to love and obey you while holding a cigarette lighter under their chin. Again, it’s doesn’t make sense.

I wouldnt think of it this way. Instead, think of a child who insists on playing with razors with his hands. You tell him, please dont or you will cut your hands and injure them permenately. Instead, you suggest, take my hand so that I can lead you out of the sin. But the child keeps wanting to play with razors. Hell is a warning. Like C.S. Lewis says, “if there are tigers in the room is it not reasonable that you warn somebody about them.”

Now, as to your point about Christian love and faith coming from knowing in your hear thtat something is true and good, you need to remember that the heart is full of sin. We would like to think that man doesnt need crutches and doesnt need to be given warnings. But this is not in accord with what we know of man. Man is very sinful and even when he knows of God’s love he still sins. In exodus when the Jews apperantly witnessed the voice of God coming from a cloud did they stop sinning? They still kept on doing it despite everything that God had done for them.

Hell is a frightening concept but if there are tigers in the room shouldnt people be warned?