Believing and interpretation

[Syele]

I believe it is important to form ones beliefs around what God wants, and around the Truth rather than what YOU (or I) believe should be the Truth.

What methods do you use then, to determine what the “Truth” is? Suppose you become convinced you have the Truth, how do you know how to interpret it?

Catholics here seem to believe that the Catholic Church Has the Truth and allow the Church to interpret it for them. This seems somewhat circular to me. Its the Truth cause the Church says it is, and the Church can say that cause they have the Truth.

 

[NHInsider]

There’s a very important term missing from your equation -

we believe the Church teaches truth because JESUS PROMISED to teach her truth and to prevent her from falling into error.

 

[Murphs10]

I believe it is important to form ones beliefs around what God wants, and around the Truth rather than what YOU (or I) believe should be the Truth.

What methods do you use then, to determine what the “Truth” is? Suppose you become convinced you have the Truth, how do you know how to interpret it?

Catholics here seem to believe that the Catholic Church Has the Truth and allow the Church to interpret it for them. This seems somewhat circular to me. Its the Truth cause the Church says it is, and the Church can say that cause they have the Truth.

If you are truly in pursuit of the truth, your bible clearly tells you where to find it in 1 Timothy - Christ’s Church, the pillar and foundation of truth. That being said, why would we not follow the Church’s interpretation and how do you go about understanding God’s word?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I believe it is important to form ones beliefs around what God wants, and around the Truth rather than what YOU (or I) believe should be the Truth.

What methods do you use then, to determine what the “Truth” is? Suppose you become convinced you have the Truth, how do you know how to interpret it?

Catholics here seem to believe that the Catholic Church Has the Truth and allow the Church to interpret it for them. This seems somewhat circular to me. Its the Truth cause the Church says it is, and the Church can say that cause they have the Truth.

1. Okay.
2. Methods I see Catholics employ are ones that agree with your opening premise. Your very opening premise rules out individual interpretation. This also answers the second part of this question, catholics do rely on the entirety of all valid data.
3. Not entirely fair or honest apologetics there. Catholics have quite a bit of liberty and freedom to interpret many non salvational theological speculations from the bible.
4. How so?
5. Bearing in mind I have a much different idea of what the word truth literally means than believers do, I would still say that there is nothing circular about stating that all possible valid data be collected and taken into consideration before evaluation. In other words, the catholic church is not a bible alone church.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

If you are truly in pursuit of the truth, your bible clearly tells you where to find it in 1 Timothy - Christ’s Church, the pillar and foundation of truth. That being said, why would we not follow the Church’s interpretation and how do you go about understanding God’s word?

Your statement is based on the premise that the Catholic Church is the same church Paul was talking about. Those same Scriptures are clear about what the church is, and it is not a religious institution operated from the city of Rome. The church consists of those in every place that are adopted by God to be His children through Christ.

As you look back in time you see a church that has existed since the time of Christ, but if you view that history from a doctrinal point of view you will see numerous adoptions of false doctrine by the very leadership you trust to teach you truth.

Paul said,

“The church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

And Irenaeus said,

“The pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life.” (Against Heresies, 3:11:8)

 

[Syele]

There’s a very important term missing from your equation -

I would have called it an observation, not an equation.

we believe the Church teaches truth because JESUS PROMISED to teach her truth and to prevent her from falling into error.

Exactly so, but it is still circular. My questions is how to you determine Truth without being circular?

1. Okay.

I find your numbering a little confusing, not sure what you are referring to where. This is also why I did not answer “How So?” individually.

1. Methods I see Catholics employ are ones that agree with your opening premise. Your very opening premise rules out individual interpretation. This also answers the second part of this question, catholics do rely on the entirety of all valid data.

Individual interpretation HAS to be involved at some point. At some point you have to decide you believe enough in an entity (using for lack of a better word, for Catholics it would be the Church, for others it would be something or someone else) to hand over your interpretations to the entity. My opening premise shows a desire to not use individual interpretation. The problem is that I cant see how its possible not to.

1. Not entirely fair or honest apologetics there. Catholics have quite a bit of liberty and freedom to interpret many non salvational theological speculations from the bible.

This simply moves back to the same point.

1. Bearing in mind I have a much different idea of what the word truth literally means than believers do, I would still say that there is nothing circular about stating that all possible valid data be collected and taken into consideration before evaluation. In other words, the catholic church is not a bible alone church.

So we get back to the title of my question. You have to, at some point, believe you have all the data you need to take into consideration. How are you to determine this? Based on the fact that the interpreting authority of the data says so? If you believe you have all teh data you need, becasue your interpreting authority says you have enough, and you believe the data is interpreted to say that the interpreting authority you listen to is the right interpreting authority… you go in a circle.

 

[Murphs10]

“The church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

And Irenaeus said,

“The pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life.” (Against Heresies, 3:11:8)

Great quote and I agree! The Gospel is where Jesus makes His promises to His Church and to St. Peter!

Your statement is based on the premise that the Catholic Church is the same church Paul was talking about. Those same Scriptures are clear about what the church is, and it is not a religious institution operated from the city of Rome. The church consists of those in every place that are adopted by God to be His children through Christ.

So, how do you find this church if you need to have it resolve an issue of doctrine as the Bible tells us to? The Bible tells us to take it to the Church.

If what you say is true, the implication is that doctrine either doesn’t matter or it is ok for the Church to believe different things. The guidance you receive would absolutely depend on which church you asked and would, without a doubt, conflict with many others. The Bible is quite clear that the Body of Christ, the Chruch, is to be of one mind and teach one set of doctrine.

Your description of the Body of Christ runs counter to what is described in the Bible and what Jesus prayed for.

 

[wmscott]

Great quote and I agree! The Gospel is where Jesus makes His promises to His Church and to St. Peter!

So, how do you find this church if you need to have it resolve an issue of doctrine as the Bible tells us to? The Bible tells us to take it to the Church.

If what you say is true, the implication is that doctrine either doesn’t matter or it is ok for the Church to believe different things. The guidance you receive would absolutely depend on which church you asked and would, without a doubt, conflict with many others. The Bible is quite clear that the Body of Christ, the Chruch, is to be of one mind and teach one set of doctrine.

Your description of the Body of Christ runs counter to what is described in the Bible and what Jesus prayed for.

And under BCs statement, if I did not like what the current church (FILL IN THE NAME HERE) tells and instructs me regarding something that is controversial such as abortion, cohabitation, same sex marriage, adultery, premarital sex, and so on. Then I can just shop around to find a church that teaches whatever issue that it is that I feel a need to practice so that I can feel good about myself. And to feel good about myself, then I have to proclaim that this church is the fullness of truth because it fulfills my take on morals and theology.

 

[wmscott]

Your statement is based on the premise that the Catholic Church is the same church Paul was talking about. **So please tell me what Church or Religious group that St Paul was talking to? Name this religion or Church that has had the fullness truth all these years, which religion or church is Christ’s Church, the pillar and foundation of truth as found in 1 Timothy? ** Those same Scriptures are clear about what the church is, This is obviously clear to you as to what Sacred Scriptures say, but as for me, I am failing to see what the obvious is to you. I do not have your gift of interpretation, so please tell me whom St Paul was addressing. What was the Church that Christ established to be the pillar and foundation of truth? Please tell me what Church did Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it? ** and it is not a religious institution operated from the city of Rome. ** This statement leads me to believe that you do not consider the Catholic Church and Faith as a valid religion, is this the case? So, tell me what religion/denomination do you practice? Is there just one Church on main street somewhere, USA, or is it like the Lutheran Church (sorry not picking on the Lutherans) where they are all over the world? However, for the record, Vatican City is the “Headquarters” so to speak of the Catholic Faith, Latin Rite, not the city of Rome. The Vatican is a sovereignty onto its self, it is not a part of Rome or the country of Italy. The church consists of those in every place that are adopted by God to be His children through Christ.

As you look back in time you see a church that has existed since the time of Christ, but if you view that history from a doctrinal point of view you will see numerous adoptions of false doctrine by the very leadership you trust to teach you truth. Since it seems that you like the historical context here, can you produce a list of Christian religions/denominations starting with the Church Christ established to present day.

Paul said,

“The church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

And Irenaeus said,

“The pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life.” (Against Heresies, 3:11:8)

 

[Brian_Culliton]

So, how do you find this church if you need to have it resolve an issue of doctrine as the Bible tells us to? The Bible tells us to take it to the Church.

Please specify where you are getting that from so I can respond properly.

If what you say is true, the implication is that doctrine either doesn’t matter or it is ok for the Church to believe different things.

It’s okay to not understand everything. It’s okay to wrestle with Scripture and doctrine. It’s okay to say, “Wait a minute, that doesn’t make sense to me.” Do you understand what God wants from you? Do you think He wants you to obey a set of doctrines, or do you think He wants you to know Him? If you focus on wanting to know God, obedience to His commands will follow; if you think you will come to know God through acts of obedience, you will fail to find Him.

The guidance you receive would absolutely depend on which church you asked and would, without a doubt, conflict with many others. The Bible is quite clear that the Body of Christ, the Chruch, is to be of one mind and teach one set of doctrine.

But it clearly does not, unless of course you are telling me that the body of Christ consists only of those who are in full communion with the Catholic Church. And if that is what you believe let me ask you this: should that one set of doctrine be challenged, or be accepted without question?

Your description of the Body of Christ runs counter to what is described in the Bible and what Jesus prayed for.

I completely disagree. The only thing it runs counter to is your perspective on what the church is.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

There’s a very important term missing from your equation -

we believe the Church teaches truth because JESUS PROMISED to teach her truth and to prevent her from falling into error.

Problem is though…You only believe this because **you’ve interpretted **that Jesus promise was directed to your church.

 

[wmscott]

Problem is though…You only believe this because **you’ve interpretted **that Jesus promise was directed to your church.

What other Christian Church existed when Christ made this promise?

 

[Murphs10]

It’s okay to not understand everything. It’s okay to wrestle with Scripture and doctrine. It’s okay to say, “Wait a minute, that doesn’t make sense to me.” Do you understand what God wants from you? Do you think He wants you to obey a set of doctrines, or do you think He wants you to know Him? If you focus on wanting to know God, obedience to His commands will follow; if you think you will come to know God through acts of obedience, you will fail to find Him.

This is a very disingenuous comment. First you provide a false dichotomy between understanding doctrine and knowing God and then you try to cleverly suggest that I am trying to “work” my way into Heaven.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Catholics here seem to believe that the Catholic Church Has the Truth and allow the Church to interpret it for them. This seems somewhat circular to me. Its the Truth cause the Church says it is, and the Church can say that cause they have the Truth.

1. The Catholic Church insists that it alone is the sole and authoritative and infallible and unaccountable interpreter of Scripture (CCC 85, 87, etc.). Realize, my friend, that by “Scripture” The Catholic Church does not mean what we as Protestants do. We are referring to inscripturated words - knowable by all and alterable by none. The Catholic Church is instead referring to what IT alone holds in the “heart” of ITSELF alone - knowable only to itself alone (CCC 113, etc.). This mysterious “Scripture” in the heart of itself alone, known only to itself alone, is what itself alone allows itself alone to interpret.
   Ironically, I was taught by The Catholic Church that it’s unbiblical and foolish for self to appoint self as the sole interpreter (even if not infallible) but the odd thing is, there’s only one that actually does that: The Catholic Church.
2. The Catholic Church insists that The Catholic Church alone is INCAPABLE of being wrong in official, formal matters of faith and life. It’s INCAPABLE of wrong, and it’s INFALLIBLE. Thus, the question you raise is moot, silly, irrelevant is the single, exclusive, sole instance of one: ITSELF. All OTHER teachers are capable of being wrong and thus are all very accountable - right here, right now! Because The Catholic Church declares they ALL have the possibility of being wrong, but there’s just one and exclusively one exception to this: itself. It’s right. Because it’s right, when it says it’s right - ergo it’s right. It doesn’t need to quote anything or norm anything - all that would assume its accountable for what it teaches, it’s not because it declares it’s infallible and incapable of wrong (in these matters). So, it’s right when it says it’s right - thus its right. It has a very hard time understanding why noncatholics don’t get that very simple point! Now, because it’s right - just accept WHATEVER it alone says, “with docility” “as Jesus speaking” (CCC # 87, etc.) cuz it’s right so it’s right, so there you all. The Catholic Church is puzzled, confused as to why noncatholics (in fact, too many Catholics!) don’t understand that. It’s very simple (to The Catholic Church).

Friend, you are Protestant - accepting accountability. It’s why you can’t be Catholic. It’s one of the reasons I left. My study of the LDS and the cults (as well as life and Scripture) lead me to accept that the true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - confident that God’s Truth will be revealed by the light, eager for truth to prevail rather than power of self to be extended. It’s the false teacher who must hide in the dark, shield his teachings from accountability, circumvent norming for his teachings, and get all to just lay all that aside (your whole question) and substitute the demand of self alone for self alone that whatever self alone says is rather just to be accepted “with docility” and “as God speaking.” Friend, you are asking a moot question from the Catholic perspective.

.

 

[wmscott]

1. The Catholic Church insists that it alone is the sole and authoritative and infallible and unaccountable interpreter of Scripture (CCC 85, 87, etc.). Realize, my friend, that by “Scripture” The Catholic Church does not mean what we as Protestants do. We are referring to inscripturated words - knowable by all and alterable by none. The Catholic Church is instead referring to what IT alone holds in the “heart” of ITSELF alone - knowable only to itself alone (CCC 113, etc.). This mysterious “Scripture” in the heart of itself alone, known only to itself alone, is what itself alone allows itself alone to interpret.
   Ironically, I was taught by The Catholic Church that it’s unbiblical and foolish for self to appoint self as the sole interpreter (even if not infallible) but the odd thing is, there’s only one that actually does that: The Catholic Church.
2. The Catholic Church insists that The Catholic Church alone is INCAPABLE of being wrong in official, formal matters of faith and life. It’s INCAPABLE of wrong, and it’s INFALLIBLE. Thus, the question you raise is moot, silly, irrelevant is the single, exclusive, sole instance of one: ITSELF. All OTHER teachers are capable of being wrong and thus are all very accountable - right here, right now! Because The Catholic Church declares they ALL have the possibility of being wrong, but there’s just one and exclusively one exception to this: itself. It’s right. Because it’s right, when it says it’s right - ergo it’s right. It doesn’t need to quote anything or norm anything - all that would assume its accountable for what it teaches, it’s not because it declares it’s infallible and incapable of wrong (in these matters). So, it’s right when it says it’s right - thus its right. It has a very hard time understanding why noncatholics don’t get that very simple point! Now, because it’s right - just accept WHATEVER it alone says, “with docility” “as Jesus speaking” (CCC # 87, etc.) cuz it’s right so it’s right, so there you all. The Catholic Church is puzzled, confused as to why noncatholics (in fact, too many Catholics!) don’t understand that. It’s very simple (to The Catholic Church).

Friend, you are Protestant - accepting accountability. It’s why you can’t be Catholic. It’s one of the reasons I left. My study of the LDS and the cults (as well as life and Scripture) lead me to accept that the true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - confident that God’s Truth will be revealed by the light, eager for truth to prevail rather than power of self to be extended. It’s the false teacher who must hide in the dark, shield his teachings from accountability, circumvent norming for his teachings, and get all to just lay all that aside (your whole question) and substitute the demand of self alone for self alone that whatever self alone says is rather just to be accepted “with docility” and “as God speaking.” Friend, you are asking a moot question from the Catholic perspective.

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WOW somebody woke up on the grumpy side of the bed