Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[eddie_too]

nothing personal servant, but everything you write is full of misunderstanding. it discloses a profound ignorance of RC teaching. it has no support historically or logically.

your comments appear based entirely upon your attempt to use reason, absent sufficient knowledge, to understand mysteries that only Jesus understood fully and mysteries that the followers of Jesus come to more fully understand only gradually as they grow in grace and holiness.

there is absolutely NO REASON to think that the successors to the apostles in the second, third and fourth centuries forgot what the apostles told their predecessors.

that forgetfulness is the totality of your argument against the divinity of Jesus.

you think that the successors to the apostles were incompetent and carelessly moved in to error concerning the most sacred teachings that they had been selected to maintain.

for some unkown reason, such thinking makes sense to you.

I do not understand why it makes sense except perhaps that your ignorance is so profound it clouds your ability to reason.

 

[Techno2000]

nothing personal servant, but everything you write is full of misunderstanding. it discloses a profound ignorance of RC teaching. it has no support historically or logically.

your comments appear based entirely upon your attempt to use reason, absent sufficient knowledge, to understand mysteries that only Jesus understood fully and mysteries that the followers of Jesus come to more fully understand only gradually as they grow in grace and holiness.

there is absolutely NO REASON to think that the successors to the apostles in the second, third and fourth centuries forgot what the apostles told their predecessors.

that forgetfulness is the totality of your argument against the divinity of Jesus.

you think that the successors to the apostles were incompetent and carelessly moved in to error concerning the most sacred teachings that they had been selected to maintain.

for some unkown reason, such thinking makes sense to you.

I do not understand why it makes sense except perhaps that your ignorance is so profound it clouds your ability to reason.

Its because Bahá’u’lláh can’t be wrong he is from God.

 

[Techno2000]

Servant19 : Let us make man in our image–Gen. 1:26

 

[Servant19]

I would really like your answer to this question. Do you really believe that the Church Christ founded just missed the fact that Jesus was not really God if the verses you point out are so simply understood? Do you think people such as Augustine and Aquinas were too dense to pick up on such a “clear message”?

Please let us be fair Steve. I am not trying to be implicating “denseness” on human beings whom I revere greatly for what they were striving to do to further their understanding of Jesus’ Revelation.

I have NO DOUBT, not one bit, that the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is only understood according to the capacities of those who strive to apply it to their lives, with sincerity and integrity.

In 1000 years time, another Manifestation of God may come along and tell the world that the Holy Ones of the Baha’i Faith got it wrong. Does that make them dense? Were Martha Root, Dr. Muhajir, Mirza Abu’l Fadl, William Sears, etc etc all dense??

Heaven forbid, NO! Augistine and Thomas Aquinas were not dense.

Was Samuel Morse dense for only sending a telegraph in 1844 and not inventing the iPhone?

History has proven time and again, you are only able to work with what you are given.

Even 10-15 years after Jesus’ crucifixion, the matter of circumcision and breaking bread with Gentiles was a matter of deep debate and uncertainty amongst the Apostle, and you are telling me that the matter of Jesus is ontologically God was a settled matter???

That’s where the confusion ensues…

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Its because Bahá’u’lláh can’t be wrong he is from God.

Thus what is said about this?

“…Whoso faileth to quaff the choice wine which We have unsealed through the potency of Our Name, the All-Compelling, shall be unable to discern the splendours of the light of divine unity or to grasp the essential purpose underlying the Scriptures of God, the Lord of heaven and earth, the sovereign Ruler of this world and of the world to come. Such a man shall be accounted among the faithless in the Book of God, the All-Knowing, the All-Informed…”

“…They have rejected the bounty of God and His proofs and have repudiated the testimony of God and His signs. They have gone astray and have caused the people to go astray, yet perceive it not. They worship vain imaginings but know it not. They have taken idle fancies for their lords and have neglected God, yet understand not. They have abandoned the most great Ocean and are hastening towards the pool, but comprehend not. They follow their own idle fancies while turning aside from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting…”

“…We have unveiled to thine eyes the sea and the waves thereof, the sun and the radiance thereof, the heavens and the stars thereof, the shells and the pearls thereof. Render thou thanks unto God for so great a bounty, so gracious a favour that hath pervaded the whole world…”

This Tablet should be read by all mankind! reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-9.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Servant19 : Let us make man in our image–Gen. 1:26

Hi Techno, please elaborate

.

 

[Servant19]

nothing personal servant, but everything you write is full of misunderstanding. it discloses a profound ignorance of RC teaching. it has no support historically or logically.

your comments appear based entirely upon your attempt to use reason, absent sufficient knowledge, to understand mysteries that only Jesus understood fully and mysteries that the followers of Jesus come to more fully understand only gradually as they grow in grace and holiness.

there is absolutely NO REASON to think that the successors to the apostles in the second, third and fourth centuries forgot what the apostles told their predecessors.

that forgetfulness is the totality of your argument against the divinity of Jesus.

you think that the successors to the apostles were incompetent and carelessly moved in to error concerning the most sacred teachings that they had been selected to maintain.

for some unkown reason, such thinking makes sense to you.

I do not understand why it makes sense except perhaps that your ignorance is so profound it clouds your ability to reason.

Eddie, please show me why I am misunderstanding something.

Yes, I cherry pick quotes that indicate against the God known as Jesus, but I also explain why the quotes referring to Jesus as God do not necessarily mean that Jesus is God.

Cherry picking is done by all, including the Church. There is nothing wrong with cherry picking, unless it it can be proven that the explanation you give is a false one.

I am stating that Jesus nor the Apostles ever stated that Jesus was Uncreated.

I am also stating that being an Eternal Being does not equate to being God, or equate to being Uncreated.

I am also saying that Jesus was not in reality “created” as such. Jesus was God’s “Primal Emanation” and all of the rest of creation came into being through that Primal Emanation.

These facts are a recurring theme in ALL major global religions (except maybe Buddhism) and the mystery has been lifted, as predicted by the Prophet Daniel, by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

For me it all makes sense. God is simple. This explanation is simple. Rational and reasonable, both qualities that spring from the Divine Fragrance. Blind faith does not dwell with God.

there is absolutely NO REASON to think that the successors to the apostles in the second, third and fourth centuries forgot what the apostles told their predecessors.

that forgetfulness is the totality of your argument against the divinity of Jesus.

I think the fact that the Apostles did not really know for sure whether they should circumcise newly converted Christians or not is an indication that not everything was so clear cut to the Apostles. Sure, they were guided by the Holy Spirit to teach and preach the new religion of God, but the Holy Spirit never divulges more to the Holy Ones than they can bear at the time.

.

 

[Techno2000]

Hi Techno, please elaborate

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Let us( The Trinity ) make man in ( our ) image–Gen. 1:26

 

[Techno2000]

Blind faith does not dwell with God.

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Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Servant19]

Let us( The Trinity ) make man in ( our ) image–Gen. 1:26

Oh, I see

Its not so clear cut…are you cherry picking as well

Here’s one I cherry picked …

"Do you thus repay Yahweh, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you… See now that I, I am He, and there is no God besides ME." (Deuteronomy 32:6, 39).

…and again:

"Hear O Israel, YAHWEH our God, YAHWEH is one and you shall love YAHWEH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."
(Deuteronomy 6:4-5.)

**"One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that he had answered them well, asked him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” ** (Mark 12:28)

It is only when I became a Baha’i that the Truth of this mystery became fully clear, even down to the reasons why “We” and “Us” are used in the Old Testament, and why “I” and “Me” are used at other times in the Old Testament.

What a wonderful clarification to this seeming contradiction. I thank God for His mercy upon my soul.



.

 

[Servant19]

Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Thankyou Techno.

Is this what you believe “blind faith” means?

.

 

[Techno2000]

Thankyou Techno.

Is this what you believe “blind faith” means?

.

Yes

 

[Techno2000]

Oh, I see

Its not so clear cut…are you cherry picking as well

Here’s one I cherry picked …

"Do you thus repay Yahweh, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you… See now that I, I am He, and there is no God besides ME." (Deuteronomy 32:6, 39).

…and again:

"Hear O Israel, YAHWEH our God, YAHWEH is one and you shall love YAHWEH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."
(Deuteronomy 6:4-5.)

"One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that he had answered them well, asked him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28)

It is only when I became a Baha’i that the Truth of this mystery became fully clear, even down to the reasons why “We” and “Us” are used in the Old Testament, and why “I” and “Me” are used at other times in the Old Testament.

What a wonderful clarification to this seeming contradiction. I thank God for His mercy upon my soul.



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Jesus was kept hidden from the Jews until he was born by the Virgin Mary.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

eddie too;12395817]it seems as though there is a lot of spinning of wheels on this thread. this may be a result of a lack of focus.

Lack of focus or lack of understanding? It is both when the Balluahui prophet is never present with Jesus in the first century, in order to reveal or know who the True Jesus is. It is the Ballu’i religion who teaches a blind faith of Jesus; from an afar history who never knew the first century Jesus. When the apostles were present with Jesus, who received the divine revelations and teachings from God.

Quote by; Servant 19; Yes, I cherry pick quotes that indicate against the God known as Jesus, but I also explain why the quotes referring to Jesus as God do not necessarily mean that Jesus is God.

There are no scriptures that teaches Jesus is not God. Servant’s 19 revealed scripture quotes never deny Jesus is God. What the Baha’i faith, fails to realize in the Christian scriptures is; that they are not revealing God the Son. They are teaching and revealing Jesus is THE SON OF MAN. This divine revealed mystery foretold by the prophets is; where your Baha’i faith, begins it’s misunderstandings of Jesus; Servant 19 reading of the new testament will always contradict God’s revelation and scriptures, if the scriptures are not read in the way God breathes them to us; when Jesus is fully human and fully divine.

This divine revelation was given and revealed first hand to the Apostles, who handed them down to their apostolic successors the Catholic Church. We Catholics can discern the scriptures and these mysteries as revealed from the first century by God. Jesus is the Son of Man, takes on our full humanity except sin, fully divine in one Presence Jesus God incarnate.

The Son of Man crucified remains to be the stumbling block for the Baha’i faith believers. This Son of Man took upon all our sins to death with him by His flesh, that requires an act of God. God does not die. God the Son proceeds in Presence; in life, in death in the Son of Man to release the captives from death and eternally proceeds from the Father in eternal Essence.

Quote by Servant 19;There is nothing wrong with cherry picking, unless it it can be proven that the explanation you give is a false one…Can you offer an explanation as to why God the Son has a God?

The Son of Man has a Father in heaven who is God, because He = the Son of Man represents all of humanity and all of creation both visible and invisible who came through Him = Jesus the Word of God incarnate. To redeem us, in a way that not one will be lost, or snatched from His hand.

if apostolic succession does not exist, then no one on earth knows the fullness of what Jesus taught and did. without apostolic succession, mankind is left to its own devices, the same state that it was in before God became Incarnate.

I would agree with you, Apostolic succession carries with it, both the eyewitness account of God’s revelation, who hands them down to us by oral Tradition and written letter, so that the Catholic Church can proclaim Jesus Christ Crucified in every age, When God came to us in God’s presence in the Son of God, took on flesh in the fulfillment (456 prophecies fulfilled) in the Son of Man. When all the scriptures written reveal the Son of God in the Son of Man = Jesus Christ the Word of God incarnate.

For the record; Jesus commissioned the Church to baptize all in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit after His resurrection. And before this divine baptism is ever recorded in writing. Peter baptizes three thousand souls at Pentecost in the Trinity, before Luke or Paul became Christians, and long before the Catholic Church defends the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with the title Trinity at council which records St. Nicholas (Santa Claus) struck Arius the heretic and knocked the heretic out cold after Arius; stated that Jesus is not God.

It is many subjects like these that this thread makes touch and go attempts that appear circular or spinning wheels. **Especially Servant 19 contradictions of scripture between the Son of God in the Son of Man, has not been dealt with here at any length. **

peace be with you

 

[SteveVH]

BINGO!!

And the Word, the Eternal Logos, the Alpha and the Omega (whatever you term it) is the King and Lord of that Kingdom. Before Abraham was, It IS!

There is no “IT” involved here. We are speaking of a divine Person, a “WHO”: “Before Abraham I AM” He was before any other thing, including his Kingdom.

As stated in Proverbs 8, where this is termed “Wisdom”, it was created, just as the Kingdom was created, but they all existed before the letters B and E were put together in the physical and spiritual worlds.

I have no idea whatsoever what you are trying to express here. Probably due to my infantile understanding as a Catholic and not a Baha’i.

 

[SteveVH]

Please let us be fair Steve. I am not trying to be implicating “denseness” on human beings whom I revere greatly for what they were striving to do to further their understanding of Jesus’ Revelation.

Then help me understand. One thing that is irrefutable is that the dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic Church have not changed since its inception. What the Church has believed since the beginning is very well documented through the writings of the early Church fathers. Keep in mind that some of these holy men were contemporaries of the Apostles, students and disciples. These men believed and taught what they had received directly from the Apostles. And they believed that Jesus was God; the eternal Son of the Father, who was begotten, not made, one in being with the Father.

Now we have two choices based upon your premise. Either these men completely misunderstood the apostolic teaching and proclamation; the “kerygma”, or the Apostles never understood who Jesus really was to begin with. Actually there is another choice; that because of the presence of Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit the kerygma, the heart of the Gospel, the most essential proclamation, was transmitted without error from Jesus to the Apostles to the Church. So which is it?

Your entire position is based upon the false presumption that Christians, including the Apostles, it appears, had an infantile understanding of what Jesus taught them, with the limited capacity to receive only milk, rather than meat. There is a total disregard for the teachings of the oldest living institution in the world who’s founder was Jesus Christ. I have asked before and the question is ignored each time: Is there any Catholic doctrine in which you believe? No. Total disregard, as if we were children who believed that babies come from storks.

I have NO DOUBT, not one bit, that the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is only understood according to the capacities of those who strive to apply it to their lives, with sincerity and integrity.

Truth is not dependent upon ones capacity to understand. It exists whether or not we understand or believe. The question is, regardless of ones capacity, is the relative understanding based upon truth or falsehood?

In 1000 years time, another Manifestation of God may come along and tell the world that the Holy Ones of the Baha’i Faith got it wrong. Does that make them dense?

No. It makes them wrong. Are you that unsure of the truthfulness of your faith, that someone in the future may prove you wrong?

Catholics believe that the truth we received from Christ, through the Apostles, is eternal and can never change. That is why we vehemently reject someone like Baha’u’llah.

Were Martha Root, Dr. Muhajir, Mirza Abu’l Fadl, William Sears, etc etc all dense??

I have no idea who these people are.

Heaven forbid, NO! Augistine and Thomas Aquinas were not dense.

Was Samuel Morse dense for only sending a telegraph in 1844 and not inventing the iPhone?

History has proven time and again, you are only able to work with what you are given.

This condescending attitude is getting really old, Servant. We are not children. Please do not speak to us as if we were. Thanks.

Even 10-15 years after Jesus’ crucifixion, the matter of circumcision and breaking bread with Gentiles was a matter of deep debate and uncertainty amongst the Apostle,

And the issue was settled, very quickly, by the Church who followed the same conciliar model that the Church still follows. After much discussion, Peter stood and the bishops fell silent. He spoke and the matter was settled; Gentiles were not subject to circumcision. So what does this have to do with anything?

and you are telling me that the matter of Jesus is ontologically God was a settled matter???

Yes. It was a settled matter. And the Church guarded and protected this truth in the face of many heresies concerning the nature of Christ. Even in the face of a majority of bishops (Arians) the Church maintained what it had always believed without change or modification.

 

[SteveVH]

Thus what is said about this?

“…Whoso faileth to quaff the choice wine which We have unsealed through the potency of Our Name, the All-Compelling, shall be unable to discern the splendours of the light of divine unity or to grasp the essential purpose underlying the Scriptures of God, the Lord of heaven and earth, the sovereign Ruler of this world and of the world to come. Such a man shall be accounted among the faithless in the Book of God, the All-Knowing, the All-Informed…”

“…They have rejected the bounty of God and His proofs and have repudiated the testimony of God and His signs. They have gone astray and have caused the people to go astray, yet perceive it not. They worship vain imaginings but know it not. They have taken idle fancies for their lords and have neglected God, yet understand not. They have abandoned the most great Ocean and are hastening towards the pool, but comprehend not. They follow their own idle fancies while turning aside from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting…”

“…We have unveiled to thine eyes the sea and the waves thereof, the sun and the radiance thereof, the heavens and the stars thereof, the shells and the pearls thereof. Render thou thanks unto God for so great a bounty, so gracious a favour that hath pervaded the whole world…”

This Tablet should be read by all mankind! reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-9.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

Are you speaking of us Christians here, Tony? Is it we who have abandoned God and taken idle fancies for our Lord and understand not? Just checking. Thanks.

 

[tonyfish58]

Are you speaking of us Christians here, Tony? Is it we who have abandoned God and taken idle fancies for our Lord and understand not? Just checking. Thanks.

Dear SteveVH - Please these are not my words, it is not me speaking these words, they are the Words of Baha’u’llah. I am just sharing the full implication of rejecting Baha’u’llah without a search based on Justice.

SteveVH - These words are directed to all Mankind, it is up to each of us to determine if they are applicable to us and if found so, to take action.

This tablet was revealed in the closing years of Baha’ullah’s Revelation after most of the World had rejected His Summons to Unity and Peace, in Fact rejecting “Thy Kingdom Come”.

Oh that the world would look at this message, God willing this is soon to be so?

God Bless you in your Journey of the Love of Christ and God.

Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

Dear SteveVH - Please these are not my words, it is not me speaking these words, they are the Words of Baha’u’llah. I am just sharing the full implication of rejecting Baha’u’llah without a search based on Justice.

SteveVH - These words are directed to all Mankind, it is up to each of us to determine if they are applicable to us and if found so, to take action.

This tablet was revealed in the closing years of Baha’ullah’s Revelation after most of the World had rejected His Summons to Unity and Peace, in Fact rejecting “Thy Kingdom Come”.

Oh that the world would look at this message, God willing this is soon to be so?

God Bless you in your Journey of the Love of Christ and God.

Regards Tony

New International Version
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

New Living Translation
But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

English Standard Version
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

New American Standard Bible
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

King James Bible
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And no wonder! For Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

International Standard Version
And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

NET Bible
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And not to wonder at this, for if he who is Satan resembles an Angel of light,

GOD’S WORD® Translation
And no wonder, even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And it is no marvel, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

King James 2000 Bible
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

American King James Version
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

American Standard Version
And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.

Darby Bible Translation
And [it is] not wonderful, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

English Revised Version
And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light.

Webster’s Bible Translation
And no wonder; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Weymouth New Testament
And no wonder. Satan, their master, can disguise himself as an angel of light.

World English Bible
And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

Young’s Literal Translation
and no wonder – for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

 

[Servant19]

New International Version
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

New Living Translation
But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

English Standard Version
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

New American Standard Bible
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

King James Bible
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And no wonder! For Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

International Standard Version
And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

NET Bible
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And not to wonder at this, for if he who is Satan resembles an Angel of light,

GOD’S WORD® Translation
And no wonder, even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And it is no marvel, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

King James 2000 Bible
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

American King James Version
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

American Standard Version
And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.

Darby Bible Translation
And [it is] not wonderful, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

English Revised Version
And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light.

Webster’s Bible Translation
And no wonder; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Weymouth New Testament
And no wonder. Satan, their master, can disguise himself as an angel of light.

World English Bible
And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

Young’s Literal Translation
and no wonder – for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

What makes you so convinced that Satan did not masquerade as Jesus Techno?

.