Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Servant19]

Then help me understand. One thing that is irrefutable is that the dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic Church have not changed since its inception.

Can you show me your source for this evidence please Steve?

There are numerous scholars who see strong evidence of the dogmas and doctrines of the Church changing from the time of St. Paul to the time of the Gospel of Luke to the Gospel of John.

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[SteveVH]

Do you have any references that the Word will only incarnate once, in Jesus, and never again, please?

Now I am not talking about Jesus being the one and only Son of God, because that is a title given to Jesus, and ONLY Jesus, Baha’is will never dispute that.

I’m looking for the evidence you have that the Word will only incarnate once please.

The resurrection itself contradicts reincarnation. Jesus rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He has no reason to reincarnate. He has already accomplished what he came to do. This is easy to miss when one has no idea why Christ came in the first place.

Yes, of course I understand. The moment the Church says that the Truth it reveals has been superseded by Baha’u’llah’s Writings, well, it would look rather silly wouldn’t it?

It would make Christ himself rather look silly since it is his Church. I don’t think that will happen.

The Baha’i Faith encourages and empowers individuals to investigate Truth through a much broader perspective. It embraces the Truths within all religious Scripture and explains them fully, Baha’i scholars spend decades studying the Baha’i Writings in relation to other religious Scriptures.

If you personally wish to deprive yourself of the richness and beauty found in God’s various and diverse expressions and manifestations throughout the world from the beginning of time, that is your choice.

This is why I have brought up this vital piece of Scripture from Lord Krishna, it was revealed before Jesus, has similar authenticity to Jesus’ words, and “broadens” the horizon of the “Word made manifest” to include Krishna (and others)

Why you would wish to ignore this reality is interesting, maybe you are trying to demonstrate unquestionable loyalty to the Church, but the choice is yours. God is much more than the Church dear friend … I prefer to embrace and seek to understand God, and His diverse ways, infinite in nature and expression.

If I believed it was reality I would find it very interesting.

 

[SteveVH]

Can you show me your source for this evidence please Steve?

Sure. Read the early Church Fathers. See what the first Christians believed, those that heard the words from the mouths of the Apostles. As far as what was believed about Jesus being God, here is a little quote from Ignatius, the Bishop of Antioch, a contemporary of the Apostles, who died somewhere between 98 and117 A.D.

“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever” (n. 7; PG 5.988).
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.’ Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

There are numerous scholars who see strong evidence of the dogmas and doctrines of the Church changing from the time of St. Paul to the time of the Gospel of Luke to the Gospel of John.

Numerous scholars? Then it should not be too difficult to list some of these changing dogmas and doctrines. Just to be fair we are talking about dogmas (revealed truths) and doctrines (the Church’s teachings concerning those revealed truths). Maybe just one or two for starters.

Thanks.

 

[Servant19]

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Now we have two choices based upon your premise. Either these men completely misunderstood the apostolic teaching and proclamation; the “kerygma”, or the Apostles never understood who Jesus really was to begin with. Actually there is another choice; that because of the presence of Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit the kerygma, the heart of the Gospel, the most essential proclamation, was transmitted without error from Jesus to the Apostles to the Church. So which is it?

My understanding of Baha’i teaching is that over time the pure essence of the teachings is lost, through kerygma. It is for this very reason why God sends Prophets. What was the point of Moses? What was the point of Elijah? What was the point of David, and Daniel?

Why was Jesus not sent a day after the fall and show true love to His creation by offering salvation to all immediately? The theology of necessity of multiple prophets makes no sense whatsoever if humanity had the pure teachings of God from the moment of revelation for thousands of years thereafter. Obviously there is a need for God to renew His teachings, fulfill the remnants of His old teachings, otherwise He would just have sent Jesus to save all straight away, and our works would have nothing to do with salvation…

Your entire position is based upon the false presumption that Christians, including the Apostles, it appears, had an infantile understanding of what Jesus taught them, with the limited capacity to receive only milk, rather than meat. There is a total disregard for the teachings of the oldest living institution in the world who’s founder was Jesus Christ. I have asked before and the question is ignored each time: Is there any Catholic doctrine in which you believe? No. Total disregard, as if we were children who believed that babies come from storks.

Dear Steve, let us not pretend that the upstanding Christians are being picked on by Baha’is, while the other side of the picture is that the Christians are doing the same thing to the Jews.

You don’t think Jews are offended that you are interpreting the “fall of Adam” for them and re-structuring the entire makeup of who their G-d is? Is it because Jews for centuries were nothing more than babies in need of solid food, and Jesus came and gave that to them?

Please let us not play the “you are so rude” and “no regard” gambit on Baha’is.

God is God, and the road is narrow…many will get offended, and that’s because they cling onto so many things which are not really of God.

Truth is not dependent upon ones capacity to understand. It exists whether or not we understand or believe.

Yes I agree. But we, as human beings, can only understand a small droplet of the totality of Truth. We are only given, through Revelation, what we can understand and apply to unfold the Divine Plan

The question is, regardless of ones capacity, is the relative understanding based upon truth or falsehood?

What do you mean by “relative understanding based upon truth or falsehood”?

No. It makes them wrong. Are you that unsure of the truthfulness of your faith, that someone in the future may prove you wrong?

Lets extend what is right and what is wrong, what is Truth and what is false shall we?

If you think about it Steve, everything else other than God Himself is false. So you are telling me that the Church, you, or me are privy to the TOTALITY of Truth?

EVERYTHING is false when relative to God Himself, EVERYTHING. But God has made reality in its very nature, one of degrees. In terms of Truth, there are also degrees. To try and tell me that the Apostles knew the whole truth about everything is, and I say this with respect, just silly…and if you believe that the Apostles knew everything about Truth and God, then we can end this conversation here.

Only Jesus knew the whole Truth and even that can be argued.

If there was any room for furtherance of knowledge and Truth, then that degree of furtherance has been provided by Baha’u’llah. I have studied it and I see it, in all its glory. If you are trying to tell me that Sacred Tradition has preserved the totality of what Jesus said and it is today found in the teachings of the Church, then this makes Jesus’ statement that He has “much more things to say” unto us but we “cannot bear it now” seem like a bizarre thing to say, because it becomes a pointless thing to say.

What you argue is that Jesus speaks, the Apostles speak the same things, the Church Fathers wrote the same things, the Church today teaches the same thing, and it is all as if Jesus is literally speaking today the same things that He said 2000 years ago.

So why is there SO much more for Him to say unto us??

Catholics believe that the truth we received from Christ, through the Apostles, is eternal and can never change. That is why we vehemently reject someone like Baha’u’llah.

See above…

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[TypesAndShadows]

Hi Servant!

Sorry, the new term started and I’ve been swamped with work and marking, and the thought of separating off all the runnels of our previous conversation into on-topic threads and bringing our original back on point was just too exhausting to contemplate in the few minutes I have available every now and then.

I am very curious though about this, if it’s not too rude to butt in?

If there was any room for furtherance of knowledge and Truth, then that degree of furtherance has been provided by Baha’u’llah. I have studied it and I see it, in all its glory. If you are trying to tell me that Sacred Tradition has preserved the totality of what Jesus said and it is today found in the teachings of the Church, then this makes Jesus’ statement that He has “much more things to say” unto us but we “cannot bear it now” seem like a bizarre thing to say, because it becomes a pointless thing to say.

When did Jesus tell you these two phrases that you have quoted?

 

[eddie_too]

*eddie too earlier: * we could compare the works and words of Jesus to the works of the devil.

servant’s comment: Please compare Baha’u’llah to the works of the devil. Can you please list the works of the devil (please provide a source) and we can reasonably compare

eddie too’s comparison: bahaullah seeks to destroy the Truths Jesus gave to the apostles. the devil loves this. bahaullah rejects the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. the devil loves this. bahaullah rejects the physical Resurrection of Jesus. the devil loves this. bahaullah rejects Jesus’ gift of apostolic succession. the devil loves this. I could go on, but that should be enough.

eddie too earlier: why some one might direct such a question to the person of bahuallah is understandable because Bahaullah does not recognize Jesus as God.

servant’s comment: Why should He? I think someone who is the begetter of the Holy Spirit should know exactly who Jesus is

eddie too’s answer:: because Jesus is God by Jesus very nature. bahaullah does not know this. bahaullah does not know exactly who Jesus is because bahaullah rejects everything the apostles and their successors teach about Jesus and we only know of Jesus because of the apostles and their successors. without the apostles and their successors bahaullah would never have even known that he wanted to supplant Jesus in the eyes of the world. bahaullah (the very little he even acknowledges Jesus) rejects the very concept of apostolic succession.

eddie too earlier: so, yes, someone who reveres Bahaullah might be inclined to disparage Jesus since, despite the volumes Bahaullah wrote, Bahaullah never recognizes, acknowledges or accepts the many Divine Mysteries Jesus reveals to mankind. since Bahaullah disparages Jesus, perhaps not in so many words, by Bahaullah’s ignoring Him and ignoring the truths Jesus brought.

servant in response: Please show me one quote where Baha’u’llah disparages Jesus. Just one…

*eddie too’s reply: * if one reads my words carefully, they will realize that I said bahaullah disparage’s Jesus by ignoring Him and what He taught and do not forget we only know of the very existence of Jesus through apostolic succession.

eddie to earlier: if a person were to give reverence to Bahaullah it would naturally lead to a rejection of Jesus. even though someone might say, “oh no, Bahaullah did not reject Jesus, Bahaullah built on the teachings of Jesus”.

servants response: You could not be further from the Truth. Please show me one Bahai who rejects Jesus. Just one…

eddie too’s reply: servant, you are a bahai who rejects most of what the apostles and their successors received from Jesus. if you reject what the apostles taught, you are rejecting the REAL Jesus. there are many people, not just bahai, who create a Jesus in their own image by rejecting the teachings of the apostles and their successors. david Koresh did it. joseph smith did it. jim jones did it.

*eddie too earlier: * Bahaullah refused to bow to Jesus and refused to recognize the authority Jesus gave to His apostles and to their successors.

*servant’s question: * Why would the Begetter of the Holy Spirit bow to anyone??

eddie too’s answer: I am not sure what you mean by Begetter of the Holy Spirit. in catholic theology, the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. also, Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF THE FATHER. because you introduced new terminology (which in fact I have never read or heard) I yield for further explanation of the term. but, I will point out that the new testament records the words of st. paul in Phillipians “that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth”. that would include bahaullah.

 

[eddie_too]

types and shadows, servant found this at john 16:12.

however, the quote you repeated (from servant?) as follows: * ‘If there was any room for furtherance of knowledge and Truth, then that degree of furtherance has been provided by Baha’u’llah. I have studied it and I see it, in all its glory. If you are trying to tell me that Sacred Tradition has preserved the totality of what Jesus said and it is today found in the teachings of the Church, then this makes Jesus’ statement that He has “much more things to say” unto us but we “cannot bear it now” seem like a bizarre thing to say, because it becomes a pointless thing to say."* needs to be addressed.

first, the words of Jesus are neither bizarre or pointless. Jesus is referring to what every believer experiences in the growth of their faith. for example, just as an infant cannot bear to eat red meat, also, the neophyte in the faith is not prepared for all that will be revealed to them as their faith matures. through perseverance in the faith, every person grows spiritually and a greater and greater understanding of the divine mysteries given us is experienced. Jesus ensures that His followers will receive this continual growth in the gifts of discernment, understanding and wisdom by creating His Church and providing it with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

also, the RCC does not teach that Sacred Tradition has preserved the totality of what Jesus said. the RCC agrees with the apostle John when he writes that all the books in the world could not hold everything Jesus said and did. however, the RCC does teach that Jesus, in His life one earth, revealed the totality of all that God has chosen to reveal to mankind.

verses in sacred scripture, depending on the verse, often have more than one level of meaning. it can refer to the individual and to the Church. it can refer to all mankind and to the individual. it needs to be understood on as many levels as it refers. it can reference heaven and reference earth. it all depends upon context and the depth of understanding of the one finding meaning in the verses.

it is an error to think that verses can be isolated from the totality of the faith when understanding them. this error has often led to misunderstanding and confusion.

 

[TypesAndShadows]

types and shadows, servant found this at john 16:12.

Indeed not. John 16:12 sounds a bit like it, but is not what Servant said. Servant said that Jesus said that we cannot stand the knowledge now, but Jesus said that the Apostles he was speaking to could not stand the fullness of knowledge until he sent the Holy Spirit to them, which he did a few months later.

Here is some of John chapter 16. I’m using the English Standard Version, as generally unobjectionable to most people.

“12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

Jesus is speaking to his disciples shortly before his death, after giving them an info-dump that includes the knowledge of his death and resurrection, and they’re freaking out. He says he has more to tell them, since after all they are his “friends, not servants” because he has made known to them everything he has heard from the Father (John 15), but they can’t bear it right now, so he will explain later and send them the Holy Spirit when he himself has returned to the Father, and then they will know all the truth. And, indeed, after rising from the dead and ascending into Heaven, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2), and then they knew everything.

So, since it isn’t really possible to read this passage as Jesus telling us that he has more to tell us that we cannot bear now, I wondered if Servant was referencing some other passage or event, perhaps some Bahai’i text or vision? Or perhaps this snippet of a quote appear in some Bahai’i literature, with the explanation making it sound as Servant presented it? Or, it is always possible, perhaps Servant had a mystic experience? This all seems possible.

 

[Techno2000]

But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

 

[SteveVH]

My understanding of Baha’i teaching is that over time the pure essence of the teachings is lost, through kerygma.

The kerygma is the heart of the Gospel proclaimed. The thing that punches you in the gut. The glance of the beloved that steals your heart. The teaching (catechesis) could never be lost through the kerygma, the very essence of the Gospel.

And how does anyone reach the conclusion that any teaching has to be lost over time? As Christians, we believe that Christ is the Head of the Body, his Church. He promised to remain with it until the end of time. It is not merely in the hands of fallible mankind. We have preserved the one deposit of faith delivered by the Apostles. That is why I referenced the early Church Fathers as evidence that our doctrines have remained the same since the beginning, for 2000 years. The pure essence of the teachings remain, unblemished, for all to see and investigate for themselves. Nothing has been lost.

It is for this very reason why God sends Prophets. What was the point of Moses? What was the point of Elijah? What was the point of David, and Daniel?

To prepare God’s chosen people, the Jews, for the coming of Christ, the fullness of God’s revelation.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,… (Hebrews 1:1-3)

Why was Jesus not sent a day after the fall and show true love to His creation by offering salvation to all immediately?

I don’t know. God’s ways are not our ways. What I do know is that Christ’s sacrifice redeemed all of mankind, past, present and future; including Adam and Eve.

The theology of necessity of multiple prophets makes no sense whatsoever if humanity had the pure teachings of God from the moment of revelation for thousands of years thereafter.

God revealed himself slowly, mysteriously, over time; in a cloud, a pillar of fire, a burning bush, a mysterious name. He even spoke through the mouth of an ***. He revealed himself in parts and spoke through the prophets; all pointing to Christ who would be the fulfillment of all revelation. There will be no more because there could not be a need for more. God himself has come and dwelt among us.

Obviously there is a need for God to renew His teachings, fulfill the remnants of His old teachings, otherwise He would just have sent Jesus to save all straight away, and our works would have nothing to do with salvation…

Obviously? God does not have “old teachings” that need updating. His teachings are eternal. And our works alone have nothing to do with our salvation. We are saved by the grace of God.

Dear Steve, let us not pretend that the upstanding Christians are being picked on by Baha’is, while the other side of the picture is that the Christians are doing the same thing to the Jews.

We are?

You don’t think Jews are offended that you are interpreting the “fall of Adam” for them and re-structuring the entire makeup of who their G-d is?

We don’t interpret for them. We interpret for us. They are free to believe as they choose.

Is it because Jews for centuries were nothing more than babies in need of solid food, and Jesus came and gave that to them?

Yes, actually. He came to give them his very flesh, real food, and his blood, real drink. And, thanks be to God, he came to give us Gentiles the same for we were even more underfed than they, the poor street people who were invited to the wedding feast.

Please let us not play the “you are so rude” and “no regard” gambit on Baha’is.

Ohhhhh… Almost went there.

What do you mean by “relative understanding based upon truth or falsehood”?

You were speaking of the “capacity” of one’s understanding. What matters more than one’s capacity to understand (relative understanding) is whether or not that understanding is based upon truth or falsehood. There are many brilliant people who are atheist.

Lets extend what is right and what is wrong, what is Truth and what is false shall we?

Why not?

If you think about it Steve, everything else other than God Himself is false.

Okay, I thought about it and I disagree completely. I am typing on a real keyboard and thinking real thoughts and feeling a real pain in my back.

So you are telling me that the Church, you, or me are privy to the TOTALITY of Truth?

Yep. His name is Jesus. He is the Totality of Truth. He is God.

To try and tell me that the Apostles knew the whole truth about everything is, and I say this with respect, just silly…

LOL. With respect, no less. Who said they knew the truth about everything? They knew the truth that had been revealed to them, the fullness of God’s revelation of himself to man. I doubt they knew the distance to the moon, but they knew the love of God and what he wanted for his people, the Church.

and if you believe that the Apostles knew everything about Truth and God, then we can end this conversation here.

That’s actually a great idea.

See ya.

 

[tonyfish58]

That’s actually a great idea.

See ya.

SteveVH - The gift of Gods Word is taken lightly at ones own peril, as we all should know, thus I leave you with the warning from Baha’u’llah, Words of Authority and Power of your and my Lord.

"How many those who entered within the Abode of Paradise, the Seat wherein the throne of God had been established, and stood before their Lord, the Most Exalted, the Most Great, only to inquire about the four Gates or of some Imám of the Islamic Faith! Such was the state of these souls, if ye be of them that comprehend. It is even as ye witness in the present day: those who have disbelieved in God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one of Our Names, and are debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator of all Names. We testify that such men are of a truth amongst the people of the Fire. They ask the sun to expound the words of the shadow, and the True One to explain the utterances of His creatures, could ye but perceive it! Say: O people! The sun offereth naught save the effulgence of its own light and that which appeareth therefrom, whilst all else seek illumination from its rays. Fear God, and be not of the ignorant! Among them also were those who inquired of the darkness about the light. Say: Open thine eyes, that thou mayest behold the brightness which hath visibly enveloped the earth! This, verily, is a light which hath risen and shone forth above the horizon of the Dayspring of divine knowledge with manifest radiance. Would ye ask the Jews whether Jesus was the True One from God, or the idols if Muhammad was an Apostle of His Lord, or inquire from the people of the Qur’án as to Him Who was the Remembrance of God, the Most Exalted, the Most Great?

Say: O people! Cast away, before the splendours of this Revelation, the things that ye possess, and cleave to that which God hath bidden you observe. Such is His command unto you, and He, verily, is best able to command. By My Beauty! My purpose in revealing these words is to cause all men to draw nigh unto God, the All-Glorious, the All-Praised. Beware lest ye deal with Me as ye dealt with My Herald. Do not object, when the verses of God are sent down unto you from the Court of My favour, saying, “these do not proceed from an innate and untaught nature”, for that nature itself hath been created by My word and circleth round Me, if ye be of them that apprehend this truth. Inhale from the utterances of your Lord, the All-Merciful, the sweet smell of the garment of inner meanings, which hath been diffused throughout the entire creation and hath shed its fragrance over all created things. Happy are those who perceive it and hasten unto God with radiant hearts.

May God bless all that pass this way and read this Tablet - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-4.html

Regards Tony

 

[Kliska]

Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints , 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH - The gift of Gods Word is taken lightly at ones own peril, as we all should know, thus I leave you with the warning from Baha’u’llah, Words of Authority and Power of your and my Lord.

"How many those who entered within the Abode of Paradise, the Seat wherein the throne of God had been established, and stood before their Lord, the Most Exalted, the Most Great, only to inquire about the four Gates or of some Imám of the Islamic Faith! Such was the state of these souls, if ye be of them that comprehend. It is even as ye witness in the present day: those who have disbelieved in God and joined partners with Him cling to a single one of Our Names, and are debarred from recognizing Him Who is the Creator of all Names. We testify that such men are of a truth amongst the people of the Fire. They ask the sun to expound the words of the shadow, and the True One to explain the utterances of His creatures, could ye but perceive it! Say: O people! The sun offereth naught save the effulgence of its own light and that which appeareth therefrom, whilst all else seek illumination from its rays. Fear God, and be not of the ignorant! Among them also were those who inquired of the darkness about the light. Say: Open thine eyes, that thou mayest behold the brightness which hath visibly enveloped the earth! This, verily, is a light which hath risen and shone forth above the horizon of the Dayspring of divine knowledge with manifest radiance. Would ye ask the Jews whether Jesus was the True One from God, or the idols if Muhammad was an Apostle of His Lord, or inquire from the people of the Qur’án as to Him Who was the Remembrance of God, the Most Exalted, the Most Great?

Say: O people! Cast away, before the splendours of this Revelation, the things that ye possess, and cleave to that which God hath bidden you observe. Such is His command unto you, and He, verily, is best able to command. By My Beauty! My purpose in revealing these words is to cause all men to draw nigh unto God, the All-Glorious, the All-Praised. Beware lest ye deal with Me as ye dealt with My Herald. Do not object, when the verses of God are sent down unto you from the Court of My favour, saying, “these do not proceed from an innate and untaught nature”, for that nature itself hath been created by My word and circleth round Me, if ye be of them that apprehend this truth. Inhale from the utterances of your Lord, the All-Merciful, the sweet smell of the garment of inner meanings, which hath been diffused throughout the entire creation and hath shed its fragrance over all created things. Happy are those who perceive it and hasten unto God with radiant hearts.

May God bless all that pass this way and read this Tablet - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-4.html

Regards Tony

Thanks for the warning, Tony. I will give it all the consideration it is due.

 

[Servant19]

Hi Servant!

Sorry, the new term started and I’ve been swamped with work and marking, and the thought of separating off all the runnels of our previous conversation into on-topic threads and bringing our original back on point was just too exhausting to contemplate in the few minutes I have available every now and then.

I am very curious though about this, if it’s not too rude to butt in?

When did Jesus tell you these two phrases that you have quoted?

Jesus didn’t tell me, SteveVH is asserting this.

What is taught today is the exact same as what was taught by Jesus 2000 years ago. That’s the claim…

.

 

[Servant19]

But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

Well I guess its turtles all the way down…

Deut 21:22 “If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God."

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[TypesAndShadows]

Jesus didn’t tell me, SteveVH is asserting this.

What is taught today is the exact same as what was taught by Jesus 2000 years ago. That’s the claim…

.

Where is Steve asserting that Jesus said he has much more to tell us, but we are currently unable to bear it?

 

[Servant19]

Where is Steve asserting that Jesus said he has much more to tell us, but we are currently unable to bear it?

He didn’t say that…

.

 

[Servant19]

Indeed not. John 16:12 sounds a bit like it, but is not what Servant said. Servant said that Jesus said that we cannot stand the knowledge now,

No I said that the Apostles could not stand the knowledge “then” and still could not 3 months later…what did the Holy Spirit do exactly that made them able to bear the Truth in 3 months time??

but Jesus said that the Apostles he was speaking to could not stand the fullness of knowledge until he sent the Holy Spirit to them, which he did a few months later.

Where does He say the Holy Spirit? It is the Spirit of Truth…

Here is some of John chapter 16. I’m using the English Standard Version, as generally unobjectionable to most people.

“12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

Jesus is speaking to his disciples shortly before his death, after giving them an info-dump that includes the knowledge of his death and resurrection, and they’re freaking out. He says he has more to tell them, since after all they are his “friends, not servants” because he has made known to them everything he has heard from the Father (John 15), but they can’t bear it right now, so he will explain later and send them the Holy Spirit when he himself has returned to the Father, and then they will know all the truth. And, indeed, after rising from the dead and ascending into Heaven, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2), and then they knew everything.

This is all speculation. Why would Jesus actually TELL them all He had heard from the Father when He knew they could not bear it??

If I have cancer and I think to myself that my children could not bear to know, then I don’t tell them. When a loved one can’t bear something, it is a loving gesture to withhold that which the loved one cannot bear.

Like an orthodontic tooth extraction is best to do at an age when the patient can “bear it”…

So, since it isn’t really possible to read this passage as Jesus telling us that he has more to tell us that we cannot bear now, I wondered if Servant was referencing some other passage or event, perhaps some Bahai’i text or vision? Or perhaps this snippet of a quote appear in some Bahai’i literature, with the explanation making it sound as Servant presented it? Or, it is always possible, perhaps Servant had a mystic experience? This all seems possible.

The whole thing is clarified later in John 16 where Jesus states that:

25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. "

Baha’u’llah has come to speak plainly about the Father, there is no figurative language, the mystery of the Trinity is clarified and we can focus on our rightousness and our relationship with our Maker

.

 

[TypesAndShadows]

No I said that the Apostles could not stand the knowledge “then” and still could not 3 months later…what did the Holy Spirit do exactly that made them able to bear the Truth in 3 months time??

Where does He say the Holy Spirit? It is the Spirit of Truth…

The Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit. There is but one Spirit. This is Christian teaching, so if you’re going to disagree with it bear in mind that we will simply take it as another difference from Christianity.

This is all speculation. Why would Jesus actually TELL them all He had heard from the Father when He knew they could not bear it??

If I have cancer and I think to myself that my children could not bear to know, then I don’t tell them. When a loved one can’t bear something, it is a loving gesture to withhold that which the loved one cannot bear.

Like an orthodontic tooth extraction is best to do at an age when the patient can “bear it”…

Because he said that he would. Asking “Why would Jesus do this thing?” when Jesus says he will do something is all very well, but doesn’t support the position “Jesus said he wouldn’t do this thing”.

The whole thing is clarified later in John 16 where Jesus states that:

25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. "

Baha’u’llah has come to speak plainly about the Father, there is no figurative language, the mystery of the Trinity is clarified and we can focus on our rightousness and our relationship with our Maker

.

Indeed it is clarified. He says he will send his Spirit, and then they will have all truth. He says the time is coming when he himself will speak to them in plain language. If you think none of this was fulfilled in the Bible, then you need to read the end of the Gospel of Luke and first two chapters of Acts, in which Jesus (after the resurrection) visits the disciples many times and explains clearly everything they didn’t understand, and then ascends into Heaven, and then the Holy Spirit descends on the Apostles and they know the whole truth.

It’s fine that in Bahai’i belief, you don’t think Jesus appeared to the Apostles and explained everything, nor that the Holy Spirit descended on them and so they knew all truth. Obviously, we disagree. But if you’re going to say Jesus said something, please give us a reference: perhaps the Bahai’i text that asserts he said it.

Because, in the Gospels, Jesus did not say that he had more he wanted to say to people living today, but that people living today could not bear it. He said that he had more he wanted to say to his Apostles, shortly before his crucifixion, but that they could not bear it until he sent them the Spirit, and then later he sent them the Spirit and explained. If Bahai’i believe that Jesus said the thing you claimed he said, that’s fine, but that isn’t going to convince Christians that he said it.

 

[tonyfish58]

Obviously, we disagree. But if you’re going to say Jesus said something, please give us a reference: perhaps the Bahai’i text that asserts he said it.

TypesAndShadows - This needs to be read - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

This is an extract

**"…They read the Evangel and yet refuse to acknowledge the All-Glorious Lord, notwithstanding that He hath come through the potency of His exalted, His mighty and gracious dominion. We, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit, and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray. Do ye imagine that He seeketh His own interests, when He hath, at all times, been threatened by the swords of the enemies; or that He seeketh the vanities of the world, after He hath been imprisoned in the most desolate of cities? Be fair in your judgement and follow not the footsteps of the unjust.

Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit verily standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error. He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it.

The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul…" **

God Bless and Regards Tony