Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[tonyfish58]

Is the teaching in Baha’i that Baha’ullah is dead?

Michael1978 - Good question Dear Friend in God

No - The Human Temple of Baha’u’llah was laid to Rest, but the Spirit of Baha’u’llah was that of Christs, it was the Holy Spirit, not Man.

This is the Difference between the Messengers (Prophets) and man - We are given a soul at conception.

The Manifestations though born from the womb of a Mother were always actually Born of the Holy Spirit. This is obvious from the first moments of their lives. If you read the story of Baha’u’llah as a Child you will not it was nothing but extraordinary. Just as the case of Christ.

The Holy Spirit is revealed in all its splendor upon the Declaration of their Mission. This is also when the Rejection starts.

The passing of the Physical Body of a Manifestation allows the planted seed of the Word to start to sprout and Grow. As there have been planted hundreds of volumes of the seeds of Gods Word in this age, there is going to be amazing Scientific, Human and Spiritual advances made as these trees grow into a mighty Forrest of Unity

Thank God for this Love, thank God for this Bounty - We can not, but we must always try - Regards Tony

 

[Michael1978]

Jesus is the One, True God in all His glory and might. There is no other.

It is right to question the knowledge and/or devotion of those who want to change what Jesus taught.

Amen. This is the Shrine of Bahá’u’lláh. His remains are there. There are no remains in Jesus’ tomb. Christ is risen. The same cannot be said for the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh.



We serve the living Savior, Christ Jesus. He defeated death. He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead.

 

[tonyfish58]

Go back a see what Servant19 just posted to me

Techno2000 - You may be saying this in jest?

But dear friend I can safely say you have seen “Nothing Yet”

I would consider the first ever communication based on this passage;

Surely there is no enchantment (sorcery) against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! (Numbers 23:23).

This short phrase from the Book of Numbers were the first words transmitted by the newly invented marvel of the electric telegraph.

Telegraph comes from the Greek tele (far) and grapho (write) and was first used by French inventor Claude Chappe to mean FAR WRITER.

In 1844, time and distance were annihilated by the electric telegraph–the marvelous invention of Professor Samuel Morse. This miraculous invention later led to the telephone, radio, TV . . . and eventually the Internet! reformation.org/what-hath-god-wrought.html

This was on May 24, 1844

Now one has to weigh was it a coincident that on May the 23rd 1844 that the Bab declared His mission that He was ushering in the new day of God. No no coincident that is for sure to any just observer.

As part of this revelation we are told that it fulfilled the Tradition that Knowledge is of 27 Letters and that up to the time prior to the message of the Bab, that only 2 letters had been released.

The declaration released the remaining 25 Letters of Knowledge. Supporting this is the development of Man since the mid 1800’s

The proofs are many our potential now unlimited, if we are to scoff at this potential, then it will only leave us in its wake, because dear friends in God.

It can not be stopped!

God bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Jesus is the One, True God in all His glory and might. There is no other.

It is right to question the knowledge and/or devotion of those who want to change what Jesus taught.

Thank you EddieToo for your Faith and Love in Christ - God Bless your Love - Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Amen. This is the Shrine of Bahá’u’lláh. His remains are there. There are no remains in Jesus’ tomb. Christ is risen. The same cannot be said for the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh.

We serve the living Savior, Christ Jesus. He defeated death. He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead.

Michael1978 - Dear friend in God, if you wish to balance the Faith and Love of Christ on the pretext of Mortal remains, then this may be a weak foundation for the Love of Christ.

But that is for you to decide and I wish you always strong Faith and Love for Christ.

I would consider that God does indeed give us everything we ask for.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Amen. This is the Shrine of Bahá’u’lláh. His remains are there. There are no remains in Jesus’ tomb. Christ is risen. The same cannot be said for the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh.

We serve the living Savior, Christ Jesus. He defeated death. He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead.

Dear Michael - This is a very Holy Place for Baha’is - Dear friend in God I would like you to consider it is not appropriate to post this in a disrespectful way. Our eyes are not worthy to gaze upon that structure.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

So you are basically saying that the Jews were lied to by Moses…that Moses revealed Laws that were not true and in fact all a big lie…

This is fascinating…

Was thinking about this again and how you could arrive at such a conclusion. Just what is it, specifically, that you think Catholics reject in Moses, or that we believe was true in the time of Moses but no longer true? One of your problems, IMHO, is that you equate Moses as being on the same level as Jesus and that, therefore Jesus replaced Moses. That is Baha’i-think, not Catholic-think.

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Michael - This is a very Holy Place for Baha’is - Dear friend in God I would like you to consider it is not appropriate to post this in a disrespectful way. Our eyes are not worthy to gaze upon that structure.

God Bless and Regards Tony

What do you think happened to Jesus’ body?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

What do you think happened to Jesus’ body?

A common view among Baha’is is that Jesus’s body was left in the tomb. This, however, is not the only view. See the following, quite long, article:

angelfire.com/mo/baha/christliving.html

Basically, the material body of Christ vanished when Christ was raised in His ethereal body. Please do read the article, it is quite informative of what the Baha’i position actually is. Thanks and God bless.

 

[tonyfish58]

A common view among Baha’is is that Jesus’s body was left in the tomb. This, however, is not the only view. See the following, quite long, article:

angelfire.com/mo/baha/christliving.html

Basically, the material body of Christ vanished when Christ was raised in His ethereal body. Please do read the article, it is quite informative of what the Baha’i position actually is. Thanks and God bless.

Dear ChristIsTheWay - Dear friend in God - Your Pure and Open Heart is a gift to us from God.

Dear Friend you have shown me something I have not seen in my research to date and I thank you with all my Heart. This is how we learn from each other.

Baha’u’llah has always told us that we can not ignore the Past Religions to truly understand our own Faith. As well as embracing the Truth of the Word as recorded in the Bible we must also embrace the Truth of the Words and meanings of the Koran.

Thank you for this lesson in true Humility and regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Ok so, let us tackle this reality termed “progressive revelation”

I personally am not a fan of the “2+2=4 and now we are learning E=mc2” analogy simply because it results in responses such as yours above Steve. Also Truth is Truth and has always been given and has always existed and is unchanging.

THAT WE CAN AGREE WITH!

But you don’t agree with it and that is the problem. If the proclamation that “Jesus is God” was true during “Jesus’ dispensation”, so to speak, then when did it become not true, if “Truth is Truth”? When did this truth change if truth is unchanging? You are absolutely contradicting your own words.

 

[SteveVH]

Baha’u’llah states emphatically:

"This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future"
(reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/PB/pb-63.html)

What does this mean?

I don’t know. What is the "Faith of God? God has no need for “Faith”. And the faith of human beings is not eternal, but rather very temporal. There is no faith in heaven because there is no longer a need for faith. We will see God “face to face”.

 

[SteveVH]

Here is my humble perspective for all your consideration:

Starting from the dawn of time God has found means in which to communicate to His beloved creation.

So far, so good.

The Truth is contained in its entirety in Catholicism, (it’s a changeless Faith of God remember?) HOWEVER, how we comprehend that Truth and apply it to our lives so that the Word of God becomes the “LIVING” Word of God in action in our lives evolves as our capacity to understand evolves.

It is for this very reason that Baha’is can very easily argue the “Jesus is not God” and the “Jesus was not physically resurrected” arguments through statements made in the Bible.

Sorry, and I mean that, but this is a red herring. Let me explain why. We are not speaking of comprehension levels. Does Jesus’ divinity depend upon our comprehension? We are speaking of TRUTH. And the truth is this: If Jesus was ever God then he is always God. If he was never God then he never will be God. Now if you really believe that Truth is unchanging and you agree that Jesus was God during his “dispensation” then you cannot very well claim that he is not God today. This really is not difficult. The truth is that you believe that he was never God but you’re not too sure how to get around the contradicting dilemma you have created.

If you want to discuss one’s comprehension in relation to knowing God we can do that but it is a different topic. What raises my ire is when you make the statement “Truth is Truth and has always been given and has always existed and is unchanging” while in the same breath claiming that “The Truth is contained in its entirety in Catholicism” and then claim “Baha’is can very easily argue the “Jesus is not God” and the “Jesus was not physically resurrected” arguments…”. Servant, this is the picture of contradiction.

 

[SteveVH]

ALL the Truth is contained in the Bible

As a Catholic, I would not agree with that at all. What is in the Bible is the inerrant word of God. We know. We proclaimed it so. But it is a supporting document to the Word of God received by the Church through the Apostles. It is not an entire compendium of the Christian faith, nor was it ever meant to be. It was canonized for use in our liturgies. It is only that portion of Sacred Tradition that was committed to writing. The Church did not come from the Bible, the Bible came from the Church. If you want to know all that we believe you should read the Catechism.

and the Holy Spirit has guided the Church to apply it in a way that advanced a wayward generation towards a strong and healthy relationship with God. The knowledge thus gained was indeed the Truth.

How can you say that we have a healthy relationship with God when you have stated in no uncertain terms that our most basic and fundamental doctrine is false? Please, Servant.

 

[SteveVH]

Why do you think the Prophet Daniel professed:

---

“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end.”***
(Daniel 12:4)

First, why don’t we put the verse in the context in which it was written. That might give us a clue:

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end." (Daniel 12:1-4)

This is speaking of the end of time, Servant, which will happen at the second coming of Christ. Daniel is to roll up and seal the scroll until then If you read verses 1 and 2 it is quite evident that this has not come to pass as we speak.

and Jesus Himself professed:

---

“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father”

---

(John 16:25)

I have already addressed this in another post. They would have to wait for the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. They did, and He came. The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Church, leading it into all truth.

 

[SteveVH]

Baha’is accept ALL the dogmas and doctrines of the Church as being true and valid for the entirety of the Christian Dispensation. They are no longer true today.

1. Truth is Truth and is unchanging.
2. The dogmas and doctrines of the Church were true, but they are no longer true today.

Both of these statements came from you, Servant. They cannot both be true. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that. Which is it, Servant?

 

[SteveVH]

I ask you again, why do you think St. Paul called the Law as “the Law of death”

Because no one can keep the law perfectly. Our actions can never merit heaven without the grace of God. If we are dependent upon keeping the law in order to enter heaven then we are DEAD, because it is impossible. The Jews had some 613 laws they had to follow. Christ freed us from the law through his grace. We are not dependent upon keeping the law perfectly; we are dependent upon the grace of God through the most holy sacrifice of Jesus.

why did he remove the most important law of circumcision. Was it EVER true to be circumcised?

He didn’t remove it. Circumcision was the way that Jews entered into a covenant with God. The decision made by the Church (not Paul) was in relation to the Gentiles. Peter, as head of the Church explained very well this decision:

"6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 15:6-11)

Why was adultery the sexual intercourse between a married person and another, and then when Jesus came it was the “thinking” of sexual intercourse between a married person and another?

The act of having sex outside of one’s marriage is still considered adultery, is it not? Did this truth change? Can you say “it is no longer true”? Because that is what you would have to do to be consistent with your position. Jesus only pointed out that lusting in one’s heart is adultery as well. This was always a truth. It was not a “new” truth, and the truth has never changed.

 

[tonyfish58]

Actually all those Questions asked from post 664 are answered in the Link posted in 664.

I learned a lot from that Posting and I have a lot more to read of yet, and I thank the poster for sharing that link.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Was thinking about this again and how you could arrive at such a conclusion. Just what is it, specifically, that you think Catholics reject in Moses, or that we believe was true in the time of Moses but no longer true? One of your problems, IMHO, is that you equate Moses as being on the same level as Jesus and that, therefore Jesus replaced Moses. That is Baha’i-think, not Catholic-think.

Hi Steve, it’s not relevant to categorise it as Bahai think or Catholic think. What is important in the context of this discussion on this theme of the relativity of truth is, is it Jewish think?

The perspective is very simple.

To a Jew, this is truth: (from the Jewish Encyclopedia(

Circumcision causes an angel to save the Israelites from the pangs of Gehenna, to which, according to Ezek. xxxii. 24, the uncircumcised ('arelim) are consigned (Tan., Lek Leka, ed. Buber, 27; Ex. R. xix.). According to Gen. R. xlviii., it is Abraham who sits at the gate of Gehenna to save the circumcised (see Abraham). “Circumcision is of such importance that heaven and earth are held only by the fulfilment of that covenant [after Jer. xxxi. 35]; and all the merits of Moses could not shield him against the danger to which he was exposed in consequence of the neglect of this command. It is a thirteenfold covenant”

Does a Catholic hold the words written above to be wholly and totally true?

If not, then you have Bahai progressive revelation.

The same goes with the Jewish statement that Moses is the greatest man to ever walk the earth. Does a Catholic think that? No. But a Jew does. If you say that this is an incomplete interpretation of the Jewish literature, then you are basically stating the validity of the relativity of truth.



.

 

[SteveVH]

A common view among Baha’is is that Jesus’s body was left in the tomb. This, however, is not the only view. See the following, quite long, article:

angelfire.com/mo/baha/christliving.html

Basically, the material body of Christ vanished when Christ was raised in His ethereal body. Please do read the article, it is quite informative of what the Baha’i position actually is. Thanks and God bless.

Thank you for this. I read the entire thing. He makes some great points. If this is a true representation of Baha’i thought, then within the Baha’i perspective there is an evident bias toward Islam, which is fine, but a reality that needs to be acknowledged and considered. It is important to consider when we read something such as the following:

*"'Abdu’l-Baha discusses the “Reality of Christ” in Some Answered Questions:

"Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of Man is come from Heaven, this is not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not material, fact.*

Abdu’l-Baha fails to consider that, according to the Gospels, Mary was a virgin and that was a “material fact”; She was the spouse of the Holy Spirit, a significant piece of information which is widely known to be Christian teaching in both Tradition and Scripture. It just makes one question why this would be left out of the equation when considering whether or not Jesus was “really” from heaven, materially and spiritually. The significance is that Jesus, in his very nature, was the union of man with God; fully man and fully God.

I will say that the author of this piece does give some good advice. Don’t try to pretend that things that are plainly stated in our Scriptures do not exist. We know they do and we’re not stupid (to put it another way. ) This is the first time I have read a Baha’i apologetics piece focused on how to convert Christians. Interesting. He even gives you the formula to follow - the principle of Ta’wil:

zahir=1

batin=70

zahir+batin=TRUTH

It will be interesting to see if it is put into practice, and if that is the true motive for Baha’i posters on the forum (to convert Christians).

In any case, thanks for the link. I have to say I enjoyed reading it.

Steve