Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[TypesAndShadows]

Where did I paste a long text saying that woe will befall you??

I do find the text convincing, but within context.

I also find the Hindu texts saying similar things equally convincing but all within context dear friend

.

You replied to me replying to Tony Fish, and now you ask me where you said the thing that Tony Fish said? This is a confusion all of your own making.

If you aren’t going to read what I am replying to before responding to what I say, this really is not going to be a productive discussion.

 

[tonyfish58]

Can you see that these are different things?

Where in Baha’i teaching can I read Christ saying that he has more to say to people living after the Apostles received the Holy Spirit?

Dear TypesAndShadows - Thank you for pointing out the obvious difference. Yes dear friend in God, we all have a lot to learn when sharing a gift that Only our God has given us.

The question was answered in the quote posted, I will take it back to the actual statement

“…The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and** the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God…’**…”

I would like to share this thought as well

We beleive that the Bahá’í Faith does not contradict Christianity. We believe Bahá’u’lláh is the return of Christ and accept the teachings of the Bible in the same way we accept the Bahá’í Writings. It is not possible to be a Bahá’í and not accept Christ. We look at the Bible with the Keys supplied by Baha’u’llah. We believe the Key as promised in Daniel

"…As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.” “Know thou,” Bahá’u’lláh has moreover testified, “that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee.” (Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 109-110)

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Where in Baha’i teaching can I read Christ saying that he has more to say to people living after the Apostles received the Holy Spirit?

Tony already go you this quote two pages ago, in blue writing…

For your assistance I will post it again

The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said:** ‘Ye cannot bear it now**.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul…"

The whole Tablet to the Christian world is found here:
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Do bahai know what it entails to believe Mary is Immaculate?

 

[tonyfish58]

Tony engage with my arguments please. If you want to argue that Paul or John means something else, make the argument. Don’t give me platitudes.

Why doesn’t John say the logos became flesh with Moses if the logos is truly Moses? Isn’t it obvious from the text, from the entire NT, that Moses is not the Logos. That if the law came from Moses but grace came from Jesus then this implies they are different. We are told in Hebrews that Jesus is greater than Moses, counted more worthy of honour as creator than Moses who was merely a loyal follower. We are told in Saint Paul it not by the law anyone is saved, but through grace.

The Baha’i interpretation doesn’t take this into consideration.

Dear IgnatianPhilo - The answer is within what I posted dear friend in God. This has also been discussed on many occasions. We will not revisit it, but to post the main theme and a link to the explanation.

…“These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station…” Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

The Tablet needs to be read to understand the question you asked.

God Bless and regards Tony

 

[TypesAndShadows]

Dear TypesAndShadows - Thank you for pointing out the obvious difference. Yes dear friend in God, we all have a lot to learn when sharing a gift that Only our God has given us.

The question was answered in the quote posted, I will take it back to the actual statement

“…The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and** the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God…’**…”

I would like to share this thought as well

We beleive that the Bahá’í Faith does not contradict Christianity. We believe Bahá’u’lláh is the return of Christ and accept the teachings of the Bible in the same way we accept the Bahá’í Writings. It is not possible to be a Bahá’í and not accept Christ. We look at the Bible with the Keys supplied by Baha’u’llah. We believe the Key as promised in Daniel

"…As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.” “Know thou,” Bahá’u’lláh has moreover testified, “that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee.” (Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 109-110)

God Bless and Regards Tony

Thank you Tony, that is very interesting. So it’s a point of faith that you believe he meant this? Is it a point of faith that you believe he meant only this, rather than also meaning the more literal sense which was fullfilled a few months later? That is, is it Baha’i teaching that:

a) Jesus was not literally resurrected, body and soul, and spent time teaching his disciples the things they had misunderstood before his death. The passages in the Bible describing these encounters are either later interpolations, or have some spiritual meaning related to 19th century prophets which (and this is where I don’t follow) preclude them from having the literal meaning.

b) the Holy Spirit did not descend on the disciples at Pentecost, they were not filled with the gifts of the Holy Spirit including knowledge, they did not use this to go around preaching the complete Good News. All passages describing this, and the subsequent passages about them Baptising with the Holy Spirit, acting with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, etc, are later interpolations, or have some spiritual meaning related to 19th century prophets which precludes it having a literal meaning.

c) the Spirit of Truth is something other than the Holy Spirit.

d) the Bible is a poor source for what happened when Jesus came, and to the early Christian community.

Which of these do Baha’i believe?

I’m aware that Baha’i believe there is no contradiction between Christianity and Baha’i, but I’m sure you’re aware that Christians disagree, and that we have already uncovered plaes where Baha’i teaching is not in accordance with Christian teaching. For example: the Christian teaching that the disciples had the fullness of the Truth, and that there were to be no prophets after Jesus (who was something fundamentally different from all other prophets). So I’m wondering what exactly you mean by “Christianity” when you say it agrees completely with Baha’i teaching. Is this like when Muslims say the Gospel completely agrees with the Koran, and then you realise they mean some version of the Gospel they believe existed long ago but was completely corrupted by Christians and all early versions destroyed?

 

[tonyfish58]

Do bahai know what it entails to believe Mary is Immaculate?

This link has lots of writings - bahaimosaic.blogspot.com.au/2010/10/mary-magdalene.html

Directives From the Guardian
107 JESUS (Virgin Birth of)

“With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the Kitáb-i-Iqán (Book of Certitude) page 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, ****Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. ****Also Abdu'l-Baha in Some Answered Questions’, Chap. 12, page 73, explicitly states that Christ found existence through the spirit of God which statement necessarily implies, when reviewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph.”

"We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately. His brothers and sisters would have been born in the natural way and conceived naturally."Directives From the Guardian
page 40

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TypesAndShadows]

Tony already go you this quote two pages ago, in blue writing…

For your assistance I will post it again

The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said:** ‘Ye cannot bear it now**.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul…"

The whole Tablet to the Christian world is found here:
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

.

Thanks for providing a more focused quote (as Tony did, below), and for a more informative description of the link.

 

[Servant19]

You replied to me replying to Tony Fish, and now you ask me where you said the thing that Tony Fish said? This is a confusion all of your own making.

If you aren’t going to read what I am replying to before responding to what I say, this really is not going to be a productive discussion.

Ummmm your post #361 is replying to my post not Tony’s



.

 

[Servant19]

Tony engage with my arguments please. If you want to argue that Paul or John means something else, make the argument. Don’t give me platitudes.

Why doesn’t John say the logos became flesh with Moses if the logos is truly Moses? Isn’t it obvious from the text, from the entire NT, that Moses is not the Logos. That if the law came from Moses but grace came from Jesus then this implies they are different. We are told in Hebrews that Jesus is greater than Moses, counted more worthy of honour as creator than Moses who was merely a loyal follower. We are told in Saint Paul it not by the law anyone is saved, but through grace.

The bahai interpretation doesn’t take this into consideration.

John did not say this about Moses because the Holy Spirit is All-Wise. The world was not ready for the “unity of the Manifestations of God” for another 2000 years.

It is only in this age, today, that we can finally grasp this understanding which was not revealed to John during his time.

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear IgnatianPhilo - The answer is within what I posted dear friend in God. This has also been discussed on many occasions. We will not revisit it, but to post the main theme and a link to the explanation.

…“These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station…” Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

The Tablet needs to be read to understand the question you asked.

God Bless and regards Tony

Sigh. Do you think talking like this will convince anyone here? Will make us more sympathetic to the bahai religion? Honestly it just makes me feel more convinced that there is no reasonable defence of their reading of the bible. You appeal to it and when the conversation gets tough, you back off immediately.

I want to ask you, sincerely and please answer me. How is it in the tradition of understanding the bible within Christianity we have been so oblivious to your view of it? No doubt you will say it is because your so called prophet revealed it and that it was impossible for us to have the true understanding. Lets grant that for the sake of argument, you have the fuller understanding, how do you explain the radical contradictions between our faiths then? You do not isolate salvation within Jesus, instead saying all the manifestations save (even though i can show from the new testament that this is impossible).

It is one thing to suggest there is no contradiction between the old and the new, yet clearly in the case of bahai there are radical contradictions between each new generation. You explain this by saying these are only social changes but they really are not. They have at the heart of them the differences on how we view God entirely. It seems tome useless to continue this conversation onwards, its only the same repeated arguments ad nauseum.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

John did not say this about Moses because the Holy Spirit is All-Wise. The world was not ready for the “unity of the Manifestations of God” for another 2000 years.

It is only in this age, today, that we can finally grasp this understanding which was not revealed to John during his time.

.

Tell me, since Moses revealed the law and is the logos. Does this law and subsequent following of it save?

I might also say that John didn’t say Moses was the Logos because John didn’t believe Moses to be the logos at all. There is nothing in the new testament hinting to such a view concerning Moses, rather that belongs to Jesus alone.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This link has lots of writings - bahaimosaic.blogspot.com.au/2010/10/mary-magdalene.html

Directives From the Guardian
107 JESUS (Virgin Birth of)

“With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the Kitáb-i-Iqán (Book of Certitude) page 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, ****Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. ****Also Abdu'l-Baha in Some Answered Questions’, Chap. 12, page 73, explicitly states that Christ found existence through the spirit of God which statement necessarily implies, when reviewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph.”

"We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately. His brothers and sisters would have been born in the natural way and conceived naturally."Directives From the Guardian
page 40

God Bless and Regards Tony

I’ll repeat my question. Do you know what “immaculate” entails?

 

[Servant19]

Thank you Tony, that is very interesting. So it’s a point of faith that you believe he meant this? Is it a point of faith that you believe he meant only this, rather than also meaning the more literal sense which was fullfilled a few months later? That is, is it Baha’i teaching that:

a) Jesus was not literally resurrected, body and soul, and spent time teaching his disciples the things they had misunderstood before his death. The passages in the Bible describing these encounters are either later interpolations, or have some spiritual meaning related to 19th century prophets which (and this is where I don’t follow) preclude them from having the literal meaning.

b) the Holy Spirit did not descend on the disciples at Pentecost, they were not filled with the gifts of the Holy Spirit including knowledge, they did not use this to go around preaching the complete Good News. All passages describing this, and the subsequent passages about them Baptising with the Holy Spirit, acting with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, etc, are later interpolations, or have some spiritual meaning related to 19th century prophets which precludes it having a literal meaning.

c) the Spirit of Truth is something other than the Holy Spirit.

d) the Bible is a poor source for what happened when Jesus came, and to the early Christian community.

Which of these do Baha’i believe?

I’m aware that Baha’i believe there is no contradiction between Christianity and Baha’i, but I’m sure you’re aware that Christians disagree, and that we have already uncovered plaes where Baha’i teaching is not in accordance with Christian teaching. For example: the Christian teaching that the disciples had the fullness of the Truth, and that there were to be no prophets after Jesus (who was something fundamentally different from all other prophets). So I’m wondering what exactly you mean by “Christianity” when you say it agrees completely with Baha’i teaching. Is this like when Muslims say the Gospel completely agrees with the Koran, and then you realise they mean some version of the Gospel they believe existed long ago but was completely corrupted by Christians and all early versions destroyed?

It’s not too complicated Types.

Revelation is brought forth to humanity based upon the capacity of humanity to understand it and to utilize to advance civilization, both materially and spiritually.

Everything revolves around this.

It’s the reason why God sent all the Old Testament Prophets and why He will always send future Prophets also.

.

 

[Servant19]

Tell me, since Moses revealed the law and is the logos. Does this law and subsequent following of it save?

I might also say that John didn’t say Moses was the Logos because John didn’t believe Moses to be the logos at all. There is nothing in the new testament hinting to such a view concerning Moses, rather that belongs to Jesus alone.

I’m sure you would agree that telling the Jews that all their Saints spent their lives in hell until Jesus came and freed them, is nothing short of rude…

Of course Moses offered salvation…

John only believed what the Holy Spirit revealed to Him. The focus was on Jesus and Jesus alone…
.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I’m sure you would agree that telling the Jews that all their Saints spent their lives in hell until Jesus came and freed them, is nothing short of rude…

Of course Moses offered salvation…

John only believed what the Holy Spirit revealed to Him. The focus was on Jesus and Jesus alone…
.

So a Jew following the law is saved by his obedience to the law? Have you ever read the book of Galatians?

Also its an understatement to say the focus was on Jesus, the entire perception of reality was focused on Jesus of which Moses played a part in preparing.

 

[tonyfish58]

I’ll repeat my question. Do you know what “immaculate” entails?

My understanding dear friend is Free from Sin

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

because your so called prophet revealed it

IgnatianPhilo - I will leave it here dear friend. Those words quoted above are as to why we will not find truth together. I apologize that I lead you to those words.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

So a Jew following the law is saved by his obedience to the law? Have you ever read the book of Galatians?

Also its an understatement to say the focus was on Jesus, the entire perception of reality was focused on Jesus of which Moses played a part in preparing.

You misunderstand. Jews were saved only during the Dispensation of Moses.

When Jesus came and said “I am”…all humanity was dead and were in need of Jesus for a new life… Including the Jews.

.

 

[Techno2000]

I’m sure you would agree that telling the Jews that all their Saints spent their lives in hell until Jesus came and freed them, is nothing short of rude…

Of course Moses offered salvation…

John only believed what the Holy Spirit revealed to Him. The focus was on Jesus and Jesus alone…
.

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX