Okay. So which of the things I outlined are what Baha’i believe?
CommentsUmmmm your post #361 is replying to my post not Tony’s
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Yes but what implications does all this have practically in my life?
Hi Types, none of them.
The difference between Bahai and Christianity is no different to the difference between Judaism and Christianity.
The jews were saved under Moses? Have you not read how the jews failed to uphold the law? Why do you think Paul says this?
It means you must respond to the grace offered by God which became available through Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection. It means you must follow Christ and no other, and become a part of his mystical body, the Church.
When did I say that?
When did I say that?
When did I say that?
Judaism does not, and never has, required anyone to follow the Law perfectly. That is why on Yom Kippur, in the Kol Nidre prayer, even future promises and vows for the upcoming year are annulled with the hope of G-d’s mercy. This does not mean, however, that improvement in one’s faith in G-d and charitable interpersonal relationships is discouraged; on the contrary, this is the essence of spiritual growth and, as Hillel the Elder stated, the epitome of the entire Law: “That which is hateful to you do not unto another.” Note that Jesus changed this to the affirmative: “Love thy neighbor as well as thy enemy,” which, as I have been informed by a learned poster, can only be achieved by G-d’s grace.
Or is it that you are required to follow the law perfectly but realize that no can and therefore rely (as we all do) on God’s mercy? It would seem odd to have a law that no one was required to follow perfectly, but just “generally” (i.e. we shouldn’t lust a lot, but little is okay). Hope you understand what I mean.
The jews were saved under Moses? Have you not read how the jews failed to uphold the law? Why do you think Paul says this?
Gal 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified** by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
or
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.
Now it seems to me that Paul did not hold to your conception. They were not saved by what Moses revealed, because the law necessarily condemned them. Those faithful Jews were saved by faith which Moses did not reveal. How is it you can say that Moses brought salvation? He brought judgement upon us I would wager.
What I find most interesting is that you say the jews were saved only in the dispensation of Moses. Is Moses then after the Budha came not sufficient for Jews? Tell me since Jews are not saved today are Christians not saved as well?**
Wow…there is so much misunderstanding here. I feel I could post a few pages to provide a perspective you have completely missed I feel
I will try and provide a short and concise response for you …
There are two aspects to this perspective I would like you to consider, humbly…
If you are considered righteous under God, there is salvation, end of story. God doesn’t care what you label yourself. So during the times of Moses, righteousness was deemed an earnest striving to follow the Law. If you do that you you basically attain Gods presence.
- In the world to come, there is nothing corporeal, and no material substance; there are only souls of the righteous without bodies – like the ministering angels… The righteous attain to a knowledge and realization of truth concerning God to which they had not attained while they were in the murky and lowly body. (Mishneh Torah, Repentance 8)
So the end result?
- When we talk about salvation, we must consider that it all becomes fulfilled after death. The moment you die, you exist outside of time and space eternally. So as a Jew living in 500BC, having lived an earnest life following the Law, He would encounter Jesus (according to Christinaity anyway) and He would have already saved. Jesus existed in heaven before He was born.
Jews would have attained salvation BEFORE Jesus was manifested on earth.
The aspects relating to Jesus freeing the souls in the “bosom of Abraham” are all allegorical to declare the Salvific influence of Jesus. When we talk about souls and the afterlife, these things do not happen in space and time as they are recounted in the New Testament, they are recounted to assist in the spiritual understanding of the Message contained within Jesus’ Revelation.
What Jesus taught about the afterlife was a tremendous progression to what Moses taught about the afterlife, and it is this progressive Revelation that the Bahai Faith asserts today.
God, through His Messengers reveals specific assertions for mankind to focus on from age to age. During the Mosaic period, it was about the here and now, and our works, and righteous duties under God. With Jesus it was all of those things but with a spirit of Faith to imbue our works with the necessary lustre. A lamp is a lamp and it can be beautiful, but it is only when the candle is lit within it that the true lustre of that lamp becomes evident. But we must first build the lamp.
Moses built the lamp. Jesus lit the candle within it.
Baha’u’llah made the whole of humanity one lamp and lit the candle within it.
WE ARE ONE.
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This site is a new site that develops an online platform for Electronics Engineering tutorials by videos and articles. Not just theoritically but also practically. This is you right begin to make yourself proffesional and enhance your electronics understanding skills. best-electronics-tutorials.comThe True Jesus - A big task to determine, or is it?
Could it not be simple, God is Pure Love
Pure Love knows no Division.
Thus the Pure Word Which flows from this Love also knows no Division.
If Division is caused by Ones Understanding of the Word then the path is Lost.
It is for us to know our Hearts, Our Hearts must embrace all mankind with the Love God Gives to all.
Romans 12:4
Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function,
**
Romans 6:5
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.**
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
Colossians 3:13-14
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Psalm 133:1
How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!
God Bless and Regards Tony
Directly contradicts the resurrection of the body. Which is fine for you, but heresy for me.
And we are only considered righteous in Christ who, being sinless, paid the price for our sins with his own life. And that is because “Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
So we basically get an A for effort and that is the means of our salvation? Poor Jesus. Someone should have told him before he went to the trouble of suffering and dying for us.
I do understand what you are saying. We should certainly try our best and aim for human perfection, rather than setting out to practice the Law only in part. But if we err on our path toward holiness and righteousness, as surely we will since we are human and not divine, G-d can forgive us if we repent and, in the case of sins committed against our fellow man, seek forgiveness from him and change our behavior. One is able to grow and improve over time with the goodness that G-d has bestowed upon our soul from birth, having been created in His image. In addition, Moses states in Deuteronomy that to follow the Law is not so daunting as it may appear at first and prophets such as Isaiah have stated that sin against G-d and His Law can be wiped clean by means of sincere atonement.
meltzerboy I like that summary!
When you state:
…it is saying that it is the action of Jesus that saves, not my actions…
…you need to clarify what it means to be saved “through” Christ. If it requires me to do something other than verbally declare that Jesus is God and go to church every sunday, then what else?
Far from it, I consider the soul a spiritual body which is perfectly in alignment with Pauline theology.
There are many many millions who were and are “in Christ” but were and are far from righteous in the eyes of God. So it is deduced that the term “in Christ” must be clarified fully.
There is no effort at all without the Holy Spirit. The reason you wake up and go to work every morning is because of God, so effort goes a long way, and volition is given by the Holy Spirit.
I believe that Judaism and the Baha’i faith have several points of similarity. One essential difference, however, is that, for Judaism, the Torah is the first and last Written Law of G-d and contains all the essential elements of righteous living for humankind. The Jewish faith is not quite as ecumenical as the Baha’i faith although it does believe in the sanctity of all human life and a divine judgment based not so much on adherence to the Jewish religion as on moral behavior toward others.
Thanks for the explanation.Yeah, sorry to tell you this Servant, but Jesus is the Savior, not you or me. Without Christ it matters not what we do, we cannot enter heaven. This does not mean that we are not also required to do good works. Jesus didn’t tell us to believe in him and then sit on our couches. We must feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked, comfort the dying, house the homeless and a variety of other good works. But these things, though intrinsically good and righteous, in and of themselves cannot purify our souls. We remain sinners. THAT IS WHY WE NEED A SAVIOR (he said with emphasis, while not yelling.
).A verbal declaration that Jesus is God with nothing else would be like a verbal declaration that you love your wife, and then nothing else.
Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion but it doesn’t matter. Jesus condensed the law into two: To love God with all our heart, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourselves.
You mean in alignment with your interpretation of Pauline theology. I’m not going here with you again. We have discussed this till I’m blue in the face. Believe whatever you choose.
Of course it is in the eyes of God, that goes without saying. And Scripture tells that none are righteous, not even one. We can assume that this is “in the eyes of God” since it is Scripture.
All people are saved through Christ, even if they are not aware of it in this life.
What is most important is that Christ conquered sin and death so that those who die with him may also rise with him. That is what shaped the direction of creation forever. The gates of heaven are now open, the price of admission has been paid.
