Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Nick44]

What is most important is that Christ conquered sin and death so that those who die with him may also rise with him. That is what shaped the direction of creation forever. The gates of heaven are now open, the price of admission has been paid.

Yes, that is the current Catholic/Christian understanding. In this day, Baha’u’llah has explained that being ‘saved’ is a two-fold process that requires both recognition and the following of the Divine instructions:

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

(Baha’u’llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 19)

Abdu’l-Baha further explained the meaning of this passage; he was asked how God would treat someone who had no knowledge of His Manifestation, yet performed good works:

“If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect. This verse does not mean that the souls separated from God are equal, whether they perform good or bad actions. It signifies only that the foundation is to know God, and the good actions result from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that between the good, the sinners and the wicked who are veiled from God there is a difference. For the veiled one who has good principles and character deserves the pardon of God, while he who is a sinner, and has bad qualities and character, is deprived of the bounties and blessings of God. Herein lies the difference.”

“Therefore, the blessed verse means that good actions alone, without the knowledge of God, cannot be the cause of eternal salvation, everlasting success, and prosperity, and entrance into the Kingdom of God.”

('Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 238)

 

[thegreypiper]

Yes, that is the current Catholic/Christian understanding. In this day, Baha’u’llah has explained that being ‘saved’ is a two-fold process that requires both recognition and the following of the Divine instructions:

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

('Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 238)

Funny that someone proclaiming a revelation “for this day” still writes in classical King James style English.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, that is the current Catholic/Christian understanding. In this day, Baha’u’llah has explained that being ‘saved’ is a two-fold process that requires both recognition and the following of the Divine instructions:

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

(Baha’u’llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 19)

“If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me." (John 14:23-24)

Abdu’l-Baha further explained the meaning of this passage; he was asked how God would treat someone who had no knowledge of His Manifestation, yet performed good works:

"If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect. This verse does not mean that the souls separated from God are equal, whether they perform good or bad actions.

It is sin that separates us from God, not a lack of knowledge. And there is sin that wounds and sin that is mortal. We believe that God has written his laws upon the heart of all mankind. Regardless of one’s access to revealed truth, one cannot escape the voice within. The secluded tribe in the darkest reaches of the Amazon knows that it is not right to steal or to kill or take another man’s wife or to bear false witness… God will judge them according to what they have and the choices made. But we must also acknowledge that God is love, and wherever love is present, so is he. If they love, God is in their midst in some way.

It signifies only that the foundation is to know God, and the good actions result from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that between the good, the sinners and the wicked who are veiled from God there is a difference. For the veiled one who has good principles and character deserves the pardon of God, while he who is a sinner, and has bad qualities and character, is deprived of the bounties and blessings of God. Herein lies the difference."

“Therefore, the blessed verse means that good actions alone, without the knowledge of God, cannot be the cause of eternal salvation, everlasting success, and prosperity, and entrance into the Kingdom of God.”

('Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 238)

So do we actually agree on this principle; that our works alone cannot bring us eternal salvation? That we depend upon the grace of God for our salvation? I feel like we just moved ten miles down the track :choocho:.

 

[Nick44]

Funny that someone proclaiming a revelation “for this day” still writes in classical King James style English.

There is a reason for that style of translation. From, bahai.com:

The process of translating the sacred writings into other languages is on-going. The standard for the work of translation into English was established by Shoghi Effendi, who headed the Bahá’í Faith from 1921 to 1957. Educated at Oxford, he was able to provide translations that reflect not only a brilliant command of the English language, but also an authoritative exposition of the Texts’ meaning.

In undertaking the challenge of finding an English style which would faithfully convey the exalted and emotive character of Bahá’u’lláh’s use of Persian and Arabic, Shoghi Effendi chose a slightly archaic form of English which echoes the King James version of the Bible. He also chose, in accordance with this style, to use the masculine pronoun for references to God–although Bahá’u’lláh’s teachings make clear that no gender can be attached to the Creator. Shoghi Effendi also chose to make extensive use of diacritical marks as a guide to the pronunciation of Arabic and Persian names, a practice that is followed throughout the Bahá’í community today.

The result is a style that acts as bridge between modern English and the Persian and Arabic style in which Bahá’u’lláh wrote. Accordingly, Shoghi Effendi’s English translations, and not the Arabic or Persian originals, are used for the work of translation into other Western languages.

 

[Nick44]

So do we actually agree on this principle; that our works alone cannot bring us eternal salvation? That we depend upon the grace of God for our salvation? I feel like we just moved ten miles down the track :choocho:.

Steve, yes, indeed, we do agree! May we endeavor to find other points of agreement.

 

[SteveVH]

Funny that someone proclaiming a revelation “for this day” still writes in classical King James style English.

Sounds holier. Joseph Smith did the same thing.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, yes, indeed, we do agree! May we endeavor to find other points of agreement.

Indeed.

 

[tonyfish58]

So do we actually agree on this principle; that our works alone cannot bring us eternal salvation? That we depend upon the grace of God for our salvation? I feel like we just moved ten miles down the track :choocho:.

Dera SteveVH - That has always been so has it not? I have never seen it as any other way?

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Funny that someone proclaiming a revelation “for this day” still writes in classical King James style English.

Nick supplied the reason why this is so above.

I am smiling though, as to what language one may think the Bible was revealed in

I would hope that people know that any Bible in “Classical King James style English” is also but a Translation.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Dera SteveVH - That has always been so has it not? I have never seen it as any other way?

God Bless and Regards Tony

From what do we need to be saved, Tony?

 

[tonyfish58]

From what do we need to be saved, Tony?

The biggest thing in the world today Steve is self, the one thing that Clouds us from what is of God and that breeds all Ignorance, pride, Godliness, unbelief, disunity, prejudice, Liberty etc etc, so…

Well lets face it, in the end we need to be saved for our own self. Thank God for Christ and His Prophets!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Nick44]

Today, Baha’is are celebrating the birth of the Bab (Oct 20, 1819). We recognize Him as an independent Manifestation of God, founder of the Babi Faith, and also the Herald of Baha’u’llah.

Here is a prayer revealed by the Bab, set to music: (beautiful Christian art displayed in the video)

youtube.com/watch?v=Uew7CnKX0MY

 

[SteveVH]

Nick supplied the reason why this is so above.

I am smiling though, as to what language one may think the Bible was revealed in

I would hope that people know that any Bible in “Classical King James style English” is also but a Translation.

God Bless and Regards Tony

It’s not the translation that is in question, but rather the style of writing. When the King James Bible was written Elizabethan English was common. Not so in the era of Baha’u’llah. We find the same thing with the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. Except he did a terrible job of writing in that genre.

I think Nick did a good job explaining and I don’t really have a problem with it.

As far as the Bible is concerned, you are correct. It was translated from Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek, written in a time and culture very far from most of us, with Hebraic idioms and Rabbinical writing styles that evoked meanings very difficult to translate or understand in modern day English. This is precisely why we do not read the Scriptures as a news paper or scientific manual. And it is precisely why we must read it through the lens of Sacred Tradition, in light of the understanding always held by Church who produced it.

This is why it is particularly frustrating when one unfamiliar with the doctrines of Christianity presumes to take up our holy Book and tell us what it means and that the Church Jesus himself founded has had it wrong for 2000 years.

 

[SteveVH]

The biggest thing in the world today Steve is self, the one thing that Clouds us from what is of God and that breeds all Ignorance, pride, Godliness, unbelief, disunity, prejudice, Liberty etc etc, so…

Well lets face it, in the end we need to be saved for our own self. Thank God for Christ and His Prophets!

God Bless and Regards Tony

I asked FROM what do we need to be saved, not FOR what. If one needs to be saved it is because they are in danger. Of course we are saved for ourselves. But why do we need to be saved in the first place? What is it that places us in danger and what is that danger? And I am speaking about eternal things, not temporary.

 

[eddie_too]

these are servant’s words explaining what Bahaullah can give us that we cannot live without:

"*Baha’u’llah takes away the “me” from everything you wrote above.

I have no care about myself, and every single day, through Baha’u’llah, I remove more of my “self”, the “me” and replace it with the Light of God.

Like a candle, as it gives of it self, it’s light becomes more radiant, and in its sacrifice it rejoices.

There is no “me” in Baha’u’llah"*"

in response I write, this spirit of self-sacrifice was not a new idea introduced in to the world by Bahaullah.

I can think of no reason why anyone would think or pretend or imagine that self-sacrifice was introduced to the world by Bahaullah.

also, we can be pretty sure that Bahaullah does not come from God because Bahaullah does not bow to Jesus and st. paul said everyone on earth, above the earth and below the earth should bow to Jesus.

 

[SteveVH]

The biggest thing in the world today Steve is self, the one thing that Clouds us from what is of God and that breeds all Ignorance, pride, Godliness, unbelief, disunity, prejudice, Liberty etc etc, so…

Well lets face it, in the end we need to be saved for our own self. Thank God for Christ and His Prophets!

God Bless and Regards Tony

After looking at your response again, are you saying that it is our ego? Our “self” was created by God and is precious to him. It is what has happened to our “self” that is the problem. We believe that problem is sin and man’s proclivity to sin. That is what Christ came to save us FROM.

 

[meltzerboy]

I asked FROM what do we need to be saved, not FOR what. If one needs to be saved it is because they are in danger. Of course we are saved for ourselves. But why do we need to be saved in the first place? What is it that places us in danger and what is that danger? And I am speaking about eternal things, not temporary.

I believe I know the answer but I am also interested in the origin regarding how Christianity developed the concept of (eternal) salvation from hell due to sin, a concept not part of Judaism: whether directly from Jesus, the Apostles, the Hebrew Bible, the Gospels, the Church, or from all these sources? Put another way, Judaism does not believe we are doomed or lost in the first place so there is no need for a Savior to remedy the situation. As you most likely know, in Judaism (and in the Hebrew language), the Messiah is not the equivalent of Savior.

 

[SteveVH]

I believe I know the answer but I am also interested in the origin regarding how Christianity developed the concept of (eternal) salvation from hell due to sin, a concept not part of Judaism: whether directly from Jesus, the Apostles, the Hebrew Bible, the Gospels, the Church, or from all these sources? Put another way, Judaism does not believe we are doomed or lost in the first place so there is no need for a Savior to remedy the situation. As you most likely know, in Judaism (and in the Hebrew language), the Messiah is not the equivalent of Savior.

We received it from all of the above. Below are some Scripture verses from both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. I am sure there is much in the early Church Fathers as well, but I haven’t looked.

“And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” (Isaiah 66:24)

“Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.” (Daniel 12:2)

“This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah. Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.” (Psalms 49:13-14)

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels …” (Matthew 25:41)

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.” (Mark 9:43)

I do find it a little odd that Judaism doesn’t teach everlasting separation from God, considering what is written in the OT. How do you interpret those passages?

 

[meltzerboy]

We received it from all of the above. Below are some Scripture verses from both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. I am sure there is much in the early Church Fathers as well, but I haven’t looked.

“And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” (Isaiah 66:24)

“Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.” (Daniel 12:2)

“This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah. Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.” (Psalms 49:13-14)

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels …" (Matthew 25:41)

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.” (Mark 9:43)

I do find it a little odd that Judaism doesn’t teach everlasting separation from God, considering what is written in the OT. How do you interpret those passages?

You’re right in that Judaism DOES teach there is the possibility of separation from G-d, but based primarily on committing truly evil acts. IOW there is no teaching that we BEGIN life by being, in a sense, “separated” from G-d (i.e. due to original sin), or fallen, and that we thus need the sacrament bestowed by a Savior in the form of an atoning baptism to be redeemed from this original sin. OTOH, Torah study AND practice is, I suppose, a kind of salvation since those who are learned in Torah will most likely not fall into such evil behavior. Still, when the term “salvation” is used in the Hebrew Bible, it refers mainly to an earthly salvation in which the Jewish people (collectively more than individually) lead righteous lives obeying G-d’s commandments. Not that Jews, for the most part, reject the existence for all people of heaven and hell in the form of separation from G-d. Now is that clear?!

 

[Nick44]

… are you saying that it is our ego? Our “self” was created by God and is precious to him. It is what has happened to our “self” that is the problem. We believe that problem is sin and man’s proclivity to sin. That is what Christ came to save us FROM.

We are spiritual beings presently operating in material bodies with free will to decide which directions to take, toward the material or toward the spiritual. Baha’u’llah teaches that everything in creation is good, it is we who can make choices to misuse the gifts given to us.

A healthy ego is a good thing. An overinflated one can lead to more reliance on ‘self’ and less reliance on God. Wasn’t that the ‘sin’ of Lucifer?..in effect, “I don’t need God; I can become God.”

Baha’u’llah teaches that a misguided reliance on self and our animal nature will not lead to a happy ending after death, and that it will damage our souls.

“It is the first among all created things (the human soul) to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”

So, yes, left unchecked, the ego can destroy. Here us the counsel of Baha’u’llah from The Hidden Words:

“I desire communion with thee, but thou wouldst put no trust in Me. The sword of thy rebellion hath felled the tree of thy hope. At all times I am near unto thee, but thou art ever far from Me. Imperishable glory I have chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not thy chance.”

Baha’u’llah also says:

“They say: Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self.”