Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[meltzerboy]

We are spiritual beings presently operating in material bodies with free will to decide which directions to take, toward the material or toward the spiritual. Baha’u’llah teaches that everything in creation is good, it is we who can make choices to misuse the gifts given to us.

A healthy ego is a good thing. An overinflated one can lead to more reliance on ‘self’ and less reliance on God. Wasn’t that the ‘sin’ of Lucifer?..in effect, “I don’t need God; I can become God.”

Baha’u’llah teaches that a misguided reliance on self and our animal nature will not lead to a happy ending after death, and that it will damage our souls.

“It is the first among all created things (the human soul) to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”

So, yes, left unchecked, the ego can destroy. Here us the counsel of Baha’u’llah from The Hidden Words:

“I desire communion with thee, but thou wouldst put no trust in Me. The sword of thy rebellion hath felled the tree of thy hope. At all times I am near unto thee, but thou art ever far from Me. Imperishable glory I have chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not thy chance.”

Baha’u’llah also says:

“They say: Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self.”

In Judaism, there is the belief in a good inclination and an “evil” inclination. The latter is not necessarily sinful, however. On the contrary, it is necessary to be selfish (i.e. self-focused) at times in the form of positive aggression for the purpose of living and thriving: for example during activities such as eating, sex, work, etc. It is only when the evil inclination is abused or misused that trouble begins. The task for us humans is to harness the evil inclination so that it does not dominate and destroy the self. Does the Baha’i faith think of the self in comparable terms?

 

[SteveVH]

You’re right in that Judaism DOES teach there is the possibility of separation from G-d, but based primarily on committing truly evil acts. IOW there is no teaching that we BEGIN life by being, in a sense, “separated” from G-d (i.e. due to original sin), or fallen, and that we thus need the sacrament bestowed by a Savior in the form of an atoning baptism to be redeemed from this original sin. OTOH, Torah study AND practice is, I suppose, a kind of salvation since those who are learned in Torah will most likely not fall into such evil behavior. Still, when the term “salvation” is used in the Hebrew Bible, it refers mainly to an earthly salvation in which the Jewish people (collectively more than individually) lead righteous lives obeying G-d’s commandments. Not that Jews, for the most part, reject the existence for all people of heaven and hell in the form of separation from G-d. Now is that clear?!

Well, I take it that you do believe in circumcision. Would it make a difference if a Jew was not circumcised? Are you not circumcised in order to enter into the covenant made between God and Abraham? And what happens to one who does not enter into this covenant?

We believe that the union between mankind and God was broken by the sin of Adam and Eve. In order to be in union with God we must enter into the new and everlasting covenant in Christ, through Baptism, as through a door. We must enter into the covenant. St. Paul said that Baptism has replaced circumcision as the means of entering into covenant with God.

 

[Nick44]

In Judaism, there is the belief in a good inclination and an “evil” inclination. The latter is not necessarily sinful, however. On the contrary, it is necessary to be selfish (i.e. self-focused) at times in the form of positive aggression for the purpose of living and thriving: for example during activities such as eating, sex, work, etc. It is only when the evil inclination is abused or misused that trouble begins. The task for us humans is to harness the evil inclination so that it does not dominate and destroy the self. Does the Baha’i faith think of the self in comparable terms?

You make an excellent point, one on which Baha’is would agree.

“Every imperfect soul is self-centred and thinketh only of his own good. But as his thoughts expand a little he will begin to think of the welfare and comfort of his family. If his ideas still more widen, his concern will be the felicity of his fellow citizens; and if still they widen, he will be thinking of the glory of his land and of his race. But when ideas and views reach the utmost degree of expansion and attain the stage of perfection, then will he be interested in the exaltation of humankind. He will then be the well-wisher of all men and the seeker of the weal and prosperity of all lands. This is indicative of perfection.” -Abdu’l-Baha

Also:

“In creation there is no evil; all is good. Certain qualities and natures innate in some men and apparently blameworthy are not so in reality. For example, from the beginning of his life you can see in a nursing child the signs of greed, of anger and of temper. Then, it may be said, good and evil are innate in the reality of man, and this is contrary to the pure goodness of nature and creation. The answer to this is that greed, which is to ask for something more, is a praiseworthy quality provided that it is used suitably. So if a man is greedy to acquire science and knowledge, or to become compassionate, generous and just, it is most praiseworthy… if he does not use these qualities in a right way, they are blameworthy”

‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Some Answered Questions, Chapter 57

 

[meltzerboy]

Well, I take it that you do believe in circumcision. Would it make a difference if a Jew was not circumcised? Are you not circumcised in order to enter into the covenant made between God and Abraham? And what happens to one who does not enter into this covenant?

We believe that the union between mankind and God was broken by the sin of Adam and Eve. In order to be in union with God we must enter into the new and everlasting covenant in Christ, through Baptism, as through a door. We must enter into the covenant. St. Paul said that Baptism has replaced circumcision as the means of entering into covenant with God.

Not all male Jews are circumcised yet they are Jews nonetheless if born of a Jewish mother (or a Jewish father, provided they are raised Jewish, according to some Reform rabbis). And there is no female circumcision in Judaism yet women are part of the covenant as well. Further, circumcision was not always practiced throughout Jewish history: for example, while the Jews were in the wilderness during the exodus. Moses himself had to be encouraged by his wife, Zipporah, to have their son circumcised. So Baptism is not exactly the equivalent of circumcision in this respect.

 

[SteveVH]

We are spiritual beings presently operating in material bodies with free will to decide which directions to take, toward the material or toward the spiritual. Baha’u’llah teaches that everything in creation is good, it is we who can make choices to misuse the gifts given to us.

A healthy ego is a good thing. An overinflated one can lead to more reliance on ‘self’ and less reliance on God. Wasn’t that the ‘sin’ of Lucifer?..in effect, “I don’t need God; I can become God.”

Baha’u’llah teaches that a misguided reliance on self and our animal nature will not lead to a happy ending after death, and that it will damage our souls.

“It is the first among all created things (the human soul) to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”

So, yes, left unchecked, the ego can destroy. Here us the counsel of Baha’u’llah from The Hidden Words:

“I desire communion with thee, but thou wouldst put no trust in Me. The sword of thy rebellion hath felled the tree of thy hope. At all times I am near unto thee, but thou art ever far from Me. Imperishable glory I have chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not thy chance.”

Baha’u’llah also says:

“They say: Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self.”

We believe that any disordered behavior has its origin in the original sin. It manifests itself in every conceivable way, through pride, greed, lust, envy, and down the list. The word is concupiscence, man’s tendency toward sin. And, it is self evident that all men and women suffer from this malady regardless of where one believes it originated. Human nature was changed forever. In a way, you could say that we need to be saved from ourselves.

 

[SteveVH]

Not all male Jews are circumcised yet they are Jews nonetheless if born of a Jewish mother (or a Jewish father, provided they are raised Jewish, according to some Reform rabbis). And there is no female circumcision in Judaism yet women are part of the covenant as well. Further, circumcision was not always practiced throughout Jewish history: for example, while the Jews were in the wilderness during the exodus. Moses himself had to be encouraged by his wife, Zipporah, to have their son circumcised. So Baptism is not exactly the equivalent of circumcision in this respect.

Okay. But there are some differences here in that one may validly claim to be a Jew while not practicing Judaism in the least. Aren’t you speaking more from a cultural standpoint than a religious standpoint? I know people who claim to be “born” Catholic and haven’t seen the inside of a Church since they were Baptized as an infant. I am speaking of those who follow the tenets of Judaism, not those who claim it only as a cultural heritage.

Baptism is absolutely required for a Christian.

 

[meltzerboy]

Okay. But there are some differences here in that one may validly claim to be a Jew while not practicing Judaism in the least. Aren’t you speaking more from a cultural standpoint than a religious standpoint? I know people who claim to be “born” Catholic and haven’t seen the inside of a Church since they were Baptized as an infant. I am speaking of those who follow the tenets of Judaism, not those who claim it only as a cultural heritage.

Baptism is absolutely required for a Christian.

From a religious standpoint, as well as a cultural one, if one is born of a Jewish mother or converts to Judaism, one is a Jew (and, in the case of a woman, so are her children) even if one becomes an apostate. Once you’re in, you’re in forever!

 

[SteveVH]

From a religious standpoint, as well as a cultural one, if one is born of a Jewish mother or converts to Judaism, one is a Jew (and, in the case of a woman, so are her children) even if one becomes an apostate. Once you’re in, you’re in forever!

Well, we learn something every day don’t we. Was circumcision an option in the day of Abraham?

 

[meltzerboy]

Well, we learn something every day don’t we. Was circumcision an option in the day of Abraham?

Probably not. I don’t want to suggest that circumcision, although not considered a sacrament, is a trivial matter in Judaism. Even the more liberal branches of Judaism practice the ritual. However, there have been instances when it was not practiced according to the Law, such as on the eighth day, due, for example, to health issues or environmental contingencies. And, most important, its absence does not mean one is automatically rejected as belonging to the Jewish people, for, in Judaism, the Written Torah is supplemented by the Oral Torah. The former paints the Law in bold brush strokes, whereas the latter fills in the finer details.

I think we should get back on track!

 

[SteveVH]

… in Judaism, the Written Torah is supplemented by the Oral Torah. The former paints the Law in bold brush strokes, whereas the latter fills in the finer details.

Sounds like Sacred Tradition to me.

 

[meltzerboy]

Sounds like Sacred Tradition to me.

Very much so.

 

[Techno2000]

And they came to Him and woke Him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing!"He said to them, “Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?” Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm. The men were amazed, and said, “What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”

 

[tonyfish58]

And they came to Him and woke Him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing!"He said to them, “Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?” Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm. The men were amazed, and said, “What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”

What was the reason for this post?

If it was trying to say that Jesus the Christ has Power over all that in in Heaven and On Earth. Then dear friend in God most that visit here would agree.

God bless and Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

What was the reason for this post?

If it was trying to say that Jesus the Christ has Power over all that in in Heaven and On Earth. Then dear friend in God most that visit here would agree.

God bless and Regards Tony

Would they ?

 

[Servant19]

Yeah, sorry to tell you this Servant, but Jesus is the Savior, not you or me. Without Christ it matters not what we do, we cannot enter heaven.

Well, I must state here Steve, that this presents a blatantly unjust God. How a theology can be entertained where an All-Just and All-Loving God can create a scenario where billions upon billions of people were, through no fault of their own, denied privileges which were given to sometimes less loving people after a Saviour revealed Himself, is a crime against humanity in any court of law today.

It’s a little like me being the leader of a country and willingly denying all the residents of my country any healthcare whatsoever. They just died if they got sick. Then one day, I sacrificed myself and when I died, all healthcare flooded into the country and the residents were provided life and health which they never knew existed.

Would you revere me and my actions as leader of this country??

This does not mean that we are not also required to do good works. Jesus didn’t tell us to believe in him and then sit on our couches. We must feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked, comfort the dying, house the homeless and a variety of other good works. But these things, though intrinsically good and righteous, in and of themselves cannot purify our souls. We remain sinners. THAT IS WHY WE NEED A SAVIOR (he said with emphasis, while not yelling. ).

So what purpose do these righteous actions serve then? If they cannot purify your soul why would a Christian do them and why are Christians condemned who carry out unrighteous or evil acts?

A verbal declaration that Jesus is God with nothing else would be like a verbal declaration that you love your wife, and then nothing else.

I appreciate this analogy, being a happily married man myself, but I cannot see from your explanations with our actions through adhering to the Law (being inadequate) that this analogy is relevant.

What you are basically saying is that if I were to show my wife all the love in the world, shower her with selflessly sacrificial acts of love on an hourly basis, then it is not enough, and that I must declare my verbal love for her first.

Firstly, Jews never went around not declaring their love for God. They revere Yahweh as much as you revere Jesus and I revere Baha’u’llah. Yet you are saying that this declaration was not sufficient in God’s eyes and all the loving, selfless and sacrificial expressions of that love was also not good enough either.

Which part of this story is loving?

Why do you think that the Catholic Church is the largest charity organization in the world? Why do you think we are required to take part in the sacraments and give of our time, talent and treasure? If we don’t put flesh on the words of the Gospel then it is nothing more than words on page.

There’s nothing different here to what all adherents of all the major global religions believe needs to be done

In short, we must become transformed by Love so that we may be united to God. It is Christ who transforms us, not ourselves. It is Christ whose very nature is the union of God with man. It is Christ who heals, who forgives, who strengthens us. And it is Christ hidden in the distressing disguise of the poor and suffering all over the world. "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

This is the only difference between Judaism and Christianity. Jesus lit the lamp. The grace of transformation. And this is progressive revelation. It is the change of consciousness instilled by this knowledge revealed by Jesus that provided impetus for Christians to find an inner, spiritual significance to their deeds, and to offer fortitude and resolve when an easier option to “not bother” was available.

Now just because God provided this knowledge through the Revelation of Jesus Christ and transformed millions towards this new paradigm does not mean that heaven was closed to all people before this paradigm shift.

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion but it doesn’t matter. Jesus condensed the law into two: To love God with all our heart, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

As to progressive revelation, certainly revelation progressed from one prophet to the next. God revealed himself over time, in parts, finally culminating in the ultimate fulfillment of those prophecies in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God’s only Word. He is the Savior promised to Adam and Eve, the Lamb that God promised to provide after Abraham demonstrated his faithfulness by his willingness to offer his only son as a sacrifice. He is the unblemished Lamb foreshadowed at the Passover, who saves us from death.

Please read above. I hope you can answer my questions

It has been accomplished. It is finished. There will be no further revelation nor do we have a need for further revelation.

No, my dear friend, it is far from finished. And it will continue beyond Baha’u’llah too, just as it continued beyond Moses, the Old Testament Prophets and Jesus and Muhammmad. As a student of both Christianity and the Baha’i Faith I can see it as clear as the midday sun!

The Catholic Church are even teaching things that are indicative that God’s guidance is unfinished. They are teaching about the need for a united Global Authority etc etc. These things are not specified in the Bible, the Letters of the Church Fathers or the Apostles, the Church simply sees the need for such things to be taught. The guidance has been given in its completion for such advancements by Baha’u’llah. The sooner it is realised, the sooner they can come under the shadow of and become citizens of the new Jerusalem.

.

 

[Servant19]

these are servant’s words explaining what Bahaullah can give us that we cannot live without:

"*Baha’u’llah takes away the “me” from everything you wrote above.

I have no care about myself, and every single day, through Baha’u’llah, I remove more of my “self”, the “me” and replace it with the Light of God.

Like a candle, as it gives of it self, it’s light becomes more radiant, and in its sacrifice it rejoices.

There is no “me” in Baha’u’llah"*"

in response I write, this spirit of self-sacrifice was not a new idea introduced in to the world by Bahaullah.

I can think of no reason why anyone would think or pretend or imagine that self-sacrifice was introduced to the world by Bahaullah.

…except that in this post (and several others you have posted):

through faith in Jesus Christ I have been freed from slavery to sin and given the promise of eternal life, what more do I need?

I have pondered Bahaullah and the bab and what their followers say and even some of what Bahaullah wrote. I find nothing in those words that can add to my freedom or my hope.

I testify before all, that Jesus Christ has saved me from my sins and given me hope of eternal life.

I likewise testify before all that I can find nothing in the writings of Bahaullah than could be considered of importance to me. I have asked his followers to provide something that makes Bahaullah of importance to mankind. they have not provided anything.

after receiving the forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life through faith in Jesus, what am I missing.

unlike the bahai, I am able to provide a succinct summary of the importance of faith in Jesus to every human being.

ponder all of this in your hearts and ask the Holy Spirit what is most reasonable the forgiveness of sins and hope of eternal life given you by Jesus; or, the clanging of an empty bell, sounding out nothing of significance, that are the words and writings of Bahaullah.

I will of course retract the last comment about Bahaullah if anyone or anything reveals to me what Bahaullah gave that I need.

…you mention the word “I” or “me” several times in relation to Jesus, and what He has done for you. (and please don’t get me wrong, this is wonderful that you have this)
God does not have to do things FOR me, it is I that do things FOR Him
In fact I pray daily that He might bless me with showerings of tests and tribulations to cleanse me from the burnish of self…

This provision of salvific redemptionism is commonplace in Christianity, and Baha’u’llah has revealed that we must elevate ourselves beyond this spirit of self towards a spirit of self-less.

also, we can be pretty sure that Bahaullah does not come from God because Bahaullah does not bow to Jesus and st. paul said everyone on earth, above the earth and below the earth should bow to Jesus.

Except that Baha’u’llah IS Jesus

.

 

[meltzerboy]

…except that in this post (and several others you have posted):

…you mention the word “I” or “me” several times in relation to Jesus, and what He has done for you. (and please don’t get me wrong, this is wonderful that you have this)
God does not have to do things FOR me, it is I that do things FOR Him
In fact I pray daily that He might bless me with showerings of tests and tribulations to cleanse me from the burnish of self…

This provision of salvific redemptionism is commonplace in Christianity, and Baha’u’llah has revealed that we must elevate ourselves beyond this spirit of self towards a spirit of self-less.

Except that Baha’u’llah IS Jesus

.

Hillel the Elder reconciled the self and the self-less by stating: “If I am not for myself, who is for me? But if I am for myself alone, what am I? And if not now, when?” This is otherwise known in Proverbs as “Do not plot harm against thy neighbor” and by Jesus as “Love thy neighbor as thy self.”

 

[Techno2000]

Hillel the Elder reconciled the self and the self-less by stating: “If I am not for myself, who is for me? But if I am for myself alone, what am I? And if not now, when?” This is otherwise known in Proverbs as “Do not plot harm against thy neighbor” and by Jesus as “Love thy neighbor as thy self.”

Jesus goes much further than that:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you.

 

[SteveVH]

Well, I must state here Steve, that this presents a blatantly unjust God. How a theology can be entertained where an All-Just and All-Loving God can create a scenario where billions upon billions of people were, through no fault of their own, denied privileges which were given to sometimes less loving people after a Saviour revealed Himself, is a crime against humanity in any court of law today.

God is perfectly just. And if it was only God’s justice that was in play none of us would ever reach heaven because we have all sinned and nothing imperfect or in the least unholy can enter heaven. Justice demands that we suffer the consequence of our sins. If we were dependent only upon God’s justice we would all be condemned. But God is also merciful and in order that we, who are sinful, may have eternal life, God’s only begotten Son offered the perfect sacrifice to satisfy Justice. He took the place of us.

As far the “billions upon billions” of people who lived before Christ, his sacrifice extends to them as well. That is why he went to free them after his death and before his resurrection. His sacrifice is eternal and everyone, from Adam to the last person ever born on this planet have been redeemed by his sacrifice. Whether or not they are saved is dependent upon their response to the grace offered.

I’ll have get to the rest of your post later - just ran out of time.

 

[eddie_too]

the idea that God who created all, including justice, is Himself unjust is a leap I cannot make.

consequently, I reject in their entirety anyone whose theology results in an unjust God.

the RCC has explained in its theology that Jesus did not reveal to us the fate of those who through no fault of their own have never known Him.

we do know that those who accepted God but could not know Jesus because He had not yet become Incarnate had, after Jesus death and prior to His Resurrection, the Gospel preached to them by Jesus Himself and as a result were able to enter heaven. could this occur again? speculate to your heart’s content, but sacred scripture and the teachings of the apostles are silent on this question.

the theology of the RCC tells us that these people who accepted God but died not knowing Jesus because He had not yet come were existing in a state of natural happiness until Jesus preached the Gospel to them.

the RCC posits that this is also true for unbaptized infants, that they exist in a state of natural happiness and may well be true for those who, since the Incarnation, have accepted God to the fullest extent of His revelation to them, but there may be another explanation. like I said, this is a very speculative area of theology, primarily because Jesus and the sacred scripture and the apostles have not readily addressed it.

most of this is considered speculative theology. this speculative theology derives from what we do know.

we know God is perfect in every way. we know that human justice does not allow for people to be punished for acts that they could not control. so, some theologians combine the two concepts (among other concepts, but this is not a theological treatise, it is just a blog post) and arrive at theories about how a perfectly just Creator might address the innocence of those who through no fault of their own never believe in Jesus and His salvation. but in truth, this whole issue is important only to people who are fighting not to believe in Jesus. for those who believe in Jesus and the hope of eternal life, questioning God is not recommended or pursued. for them, the promise of eternal life through faith in Jesus is enough.

it is difficult for me to imagine how God could be any more just than to become man and offer His human life on the Cross so that those born in to sin and darkness might recognize God’s infinite love for each of them and choose Him; while He simultaneously respects each human’s free will.

God did not introduce evil in to the physical world, man did that. why did God wait until “the fullness of time” to Incarnate Himself has never been explained. another opportunity for the theologians to speculate to their heart’s content.

what we do know is that there is nothing more to long for after being given the gift of eternal life except fulfillment of the promise. after that, all else is trite. having said that, what all the gift of eternal life entails is infinite and reveals itself to every human being over time.

finally, on a little different point, I see no reason to believe that Bahaullah is Jesus reincarnated.

on this point, on one hand the bahai preach that Bahaullah is the Father. then on another hand the bahai preach that Bahaullah is the one (sometimes translated the Comforter)Jesus spoke of in John 16. on the third hand, the bahai preach that Bahaullah is Jesus, not the Father and not the Comforter unless of course the bahai are saying that the Father and the Comforter and Jesus and Bahaullah are all one and the same person. I suspect that IS what the bahai preach, that the Father, the Comforter, Jesus and Bahaullah are all the same person. the bahai also throw in Moses and Krishna and a host of others as all being the same person.

this of course contradicts the teachings of Jesus and of the apostles and of the RCC. personally, I can not think of a single good reason to accept the concept that Moses, Krishna, Mohammed, Jesus, the Father and the Comforter are all the same person while I can think of multiple reasons to reject such a concept.

the best reason to reject the bahai preaching is that it is empty. it produces nothing good in the world unless it is building on the good that has already been given to mankind. in this sense, the bahai can be cast along with the other non-Christian belief systems that Vatican II declared have elements of truth and goodness in their teachings.

through out the history of mankind there have always been men who believed in and taught of a one world government as the bahai claim is one of the essential teachings of Bahaullah. the same is true of the doctrine of love and self-sacrifice that is epitomized by the Cross of Christ. it can easily be demonstrated that anything else Bahaullah taught and the bahai preach is nothing new.

for example, since the earliest times of Christianity, there have been people who claimed Jesus was not God. there have been people who have claimed that God is not a Trinity. the bahai teach both of those things. it is nothing new. Jesus Himself encountered those same confused people, as did the apostles and their successors as is obvious even in the present time.

whereas, Jesus gives us the gift of eternal life. eternal life is salvation in Jesus Christ. personally, I do not really need anything more than eternal life.

all of the above might lead someone to ask why God would incarnate again as Bahaullah if He, God, has already provided mankind with the greatest gift imaginable – eternal life in Jesus Christ. that is what I ask, not just of the bahai, but of anyone who claims they follow a Jesus who is not the Jesus of the new testament.

I know this post is way too lengthy for a blog, but i had a lot to say. i have to thank the bahai for stimulating my mind with their devotion to Bahaullah and bab even as i reject their preaching where it deviates from that of the RCC.