Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[eddie_too]

why do people who HAVE HAD the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them reject Him and what is their fate?

how can God be any more persuasive about His teachings than by the Cross of Jesus Christ?

 

[tonyfish58]

the idea that God who created all, including justice, is Himself unjust is a leap I cannot make.

consequently, I reject in their entirety anyone whose theology results in an unjust God.

Eddie too - That was a heck of a long post trying to prove a “Just God” to which all here would already agree to?

Where did you get this idea? Are you concentrating on the negative too much dear Eddie?

The Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah are all the Holy Books of the Past condensed into small Meditations. reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/HW/index.html

The First is this

O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

The very next is this

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

God bless all with Justice and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

why do people who HAVE HAD the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them reject Him and what is their fate?

how can God be any more persuasive about His teachings than by the Cross of Jesus Christ?

That dear Eddie too is for you to sort out between you and God

May God Bless your Efforts to obtaining the answers.

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Jesus goes much further than that:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you.

The Baha’i writings have opened this even further, there are thousands of verses as to how we should be - Imagine if 150 years ago we put this Guidance of God in to practice. here is just but one

**You must manifest complete love and affection toward all mankind. Do not exalt yourselves above others, but consider all as your equals, recognizing them as the servants of one God. Know that God is compassionate toward all; therefore, love all from the depths of your hearts, prefer all religionists before yourselves, be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. You must not see evil as evil and then compromise with your opinion, for to treat in a smooth, kindly way one whom you consider evil or an enemy is hypocrisy, and this is not worthy or allowable. You must consider your enemies as your friends, look upon your evil-wishers as your well-wishers and treat them accordingly. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. Do not complain of others. Refrain from reprimanding them, and if you wish to give admonition or advice, let it be offered in such a way that it will not burden the bearer. Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts. Beware! Beware! lest ye offend any heart. Assist the world of humanity as much as possible. Be the source of consolation to every sad one, assist every weak one, be helpful to every indigent one, care for every sick one, be the cause of glorification to every lowly one, and shelter those who are overshadowed by fear.

In brief, let each one of you be as a lamp shining forth with the light of the virtues of the world of humanity. Be trustworthy, sincere, affectionate and replete with chastity. Be illumined, be spiritual, be divine, be glorious, be quickened of God, be a Bahá’í. ** Abdul’Baha

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PUP/pup-133.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[meltzerboy]

Jesus goes much further than that:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you.

Yes indeed, I am aware of that. Jesus is advocating love from the persecuted weaker toward the stronger. The Torah doesn’t quite go that far although it does say to be fair to one’s enemy, including their land and animals. This is love from the stronger toward the weaker who are in need. I was having this exact discussion on another thread.

 

[SteveVH]

So what purpose do these righteous actions serve then? If they cannot purify your soul why would a Christian do them and why are Christians condemned who carry out unrighteous or evil acts?

Righteous actions are a response to Love, that is why Christians do them. Those who carry out evil acts are rejecting Love. Please do not misunderstand. We believe that good works are absolutely necessary, as necessary as showing your spouse, in very real ways, that you love her. Our response to God’s grace is all important, but it is his grace that saves us. If we were stuck in a deep well, grace would be the rope lowered down to us. Without the rope all of our actions to save ourselves are in vain. We must, however, respond to the lowered rope by the work of pulling ourselves up to safety. But without the rope to begin with we are lost and no work will get us out of the hole.

I appreciate this analogy, being a happily married man myself, but I cannot see from your explanations with our actions through adhering to the Law (being inadequate) that this analogy is relevant.

What you are basically saying is that if I were to show my wife all the love in the world, shower her with selflessly sacrificial acts of love on an hourly basis, then it is not enough, and that I must declare my verbal love for her first.

Well, as you very well know, that is not at all what I said. I said just the opposite. If one does not follow up the verbal declaration with actual deeds then they never had love to begin with.

Firstly, Jews never went around not declaring their love for God.

Really? I seem to remember something about a golden calf. The entire book of Hosea is about Israel’s unfaithfulness, and God’s faithfulness. Please. The history of the Jews is a microcosm of the world. We are all unfaithful at times to God, which is why we need a Savior.

They revere Yahweh as much as you revere Jesus and I revere Baha’u’llah. Yet you are saying that this declaration was not sufficient in God’s eyes and all the loving, selfless and sacrificial expressions of that love was also not good enough either.

Which part of this story is loving?

The part where God himself becomes man, taking all the sins of the world upon himself and nailing them to the cross so that we might live with him forever. There has never been a love like this.

 

[Techno2000]

I have read thousands and thousands of NDEs on the web, and never has anyone ever written about seeing Baha’u’llah in Heaven.
nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

 

[SteveVH]

I have read thousands and thousands of NDEs on the web, and never has anyone ever written about seeing Baha’u’llah in Heaven.
nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

What in the world is that suppose to prove? Did they mention St. Pope John Paul, II? As Catholics we do not accept near death experiences as evidence of anything. What bothers me more is why you even make such a statement. Are you trying somehow to “prove” that Baha’u’llah is not in heaven when you know very well that we have no way of knowing?

 

[tonyfish58]

Dear friend in God - One should not make comment without knowing the facts. You are very very very and again very very very wrong with your accusations

Above is posted this;

“O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

One of the many thousand of passages about Love - To which the Bab, Baha’u’llah, Abdul’baha, Shoghi Effendi and now the Universal House of Justice Live and Breath by!

More at this link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-13.html

"Know thou of a certainty that Love is the secret of God’s holy Dispensation, the manifestation of the All-Merciful, the fountain of spiritual outpourings. Love is heaven’s kindly light, the Holy Spirit’s eternal breath that vivifieth the human soul. Love is the cause of God’s revelation unto man, the vital bond inherent, in accordance with the divine creation, in the realities of things. Love is the one means that ensureth true felicity both in this world and the next. Love is the light that guideth in darkness, the living link that uniteth God with man, that assureth the progress of every illumined soul. Love is the most great law that ruleth this mighty and heavenly cycle, the unique power that bindeth together the divers elements of this material world, the supreme magnetic force that directeth the movements of the spheres in the celestial realms. Love revealeth with unfailing and limitless power the mysteries latent in the universe. Love is the spirit of life unto the adorned body of mankind, the establisher of true civilization in this mortal world, and the shedder of imperishable glory upon every high-aiming race and nation.

Whatsoever people is graciously favoured therewith by God, its name shall surely be magnified and extolled by the Concourse from on high, by the company of angels, and the denizens of the Abhá Kingdom. And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love—the revelation of the Merciful—shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame.

O ye beloved of the Lord! Strive to become the manifestations of the love of God, the lamps of divine guidance shining amongst the kindreds of the earth with the light of love and concord.

All hail to the revealers of this glorious light!"

God bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

One of the many thousand of passages about Love - To which the Bab, Baha’u’llah, Abdul’baha, Shoghi Effendi and now the Universal House of Justice Live and Breath by!

More at this link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-13.html

"Know thou of a certainty that Love is the secret of God’s holy Dispensation, the manifestation of the All-Merciful, the fountain of spiritual outpourings. Love is heaven’s kindly light, the Holy Spirit’s eternal breath that vivifieth the human soul. Love is the cause of God’s revelation unto man, the vital bond inherent, in accordance with the divine creation, in the realities of things. Love is the one means that ensureth true felicity both in this world and the next. Love is the light that guideth in darkness, the living link that uniteth God with man, that assureth the progress of every illumined soul. Love is the most great law that ruleth this mighty and heavenly cycle, the unique power that bindeth together the divers elements of this material world, the supreme magnetic force that directeth the movements of the spheres in the celestial realms. Love revealeth with unfailing and limitless power the mysteries latent in the universe. Love is the spirit of life unto the adorned body of mankind, the establisher of true civilization in this mortal world, and the shedder of imperishable glory upon every high-aiming race and nation.

Whatsoever people is graciously favoured therewith by God, its name shall surely be magnified and extolled by the Concourse from on high, by the company of angels, and the denizens of the Abhá Kingdom. And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love—the revelation of the Merciful—shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame.

O ye beloved of the Lord! Strive to become the manifestations of the love of God, the lamps of divine guidance shining amongst the kindreds of the earth with the light of love and concord.

All hail to the revealers of this glorious light!"

God bless and Regards Tony

I think he said:

And yet not one act of love.

He wasn’t speaking of written passages. He was speaking of actions.

 

[tonyfish58]

I think he said: He wasn’t speaking of written passages. He was speaking of actions.

Then will you with Justice as a Christian show where this statement was wrong?

The First thing is one Lives by their own Word, those are powerful Words and Abdul’Baha was the embodiment of those Words, So How Much More Was THE Father! The Reveal-er of those Words.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Then will you with Justice as a Christian show where this statement was wrong?

I don’t think I said I had a problem with the statement. Although I have no idea who the “denizens of the Abhá Kingdom” are so I can’t comment on whether or not I agree with that portion. That wasn’t the point at all.

The First thing is one Lives by their own Word, those are powerful Words and Abdul’Baha was the embodiment of those Words, So How Much More Was THE Father! The Reveal-er of those Words.

Where did that come from?

Never mind, why don’t we move on.

 

[tonyfish58]

Then will you with Justice as a Christian show where this statement was wrong?

The First thing is one Lives by their own Word, those are powerful Words and Abdul’Baha was the embodiment of those Words, So How Much More Was THE Father! The Reveal-er of those Words.

God Bless and Regards Tony

The whole Story is at this Link The Revelation of Baha’u’llah (4 Volumes around 450 pages each)

peyman.info/cl/index.html?home=H

I would recommend you read this story from Page One of Volume 1 to Page 458 of Volume 4.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Although I have no idea who the “denizens of the Abhá Kingdom” are

I would explain it as - Inhabitants of the Spiritual Realm. As on earth man has reached many levels of knowledge and understanding, so it is in the spiritual worlds of God. To me this passage reflects 3 Levels of attainment unto God. (These are my ideas!)

Where did the comment come from Me reflecting on Justice.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

What in the world is that suppose to prove? Did they mention St. Pope John Paul, II? As Catholics we do not accept near death experiences as evidence of anything. What bothers me more is why you even make such a statement. Are you trying somehow to “prove” that Baha’u’llah is not in heaven when you know very well that we have no way of knowing?

What I’m saying is that they have seen
the Light as God or the Light as Jesus Christ.

 

[Servant19]

God is perfectly just. And if it was only God’s justice that was in play none of us would ever reach heaven because we have all sinned and nothing imperfect or in the least unholy can enter heaven. Justice demands that we suffer the consequence of our sins. If we were dependent only upon God’s justice we would all be condemned. But God is also merciful and in order that we, who are sinful, may have eternal life, God’s only begotten Son offered the perfect sacrifice to satisfy Justice. He took the place of us.

As far the “billions upon billions” of people who lived before Christ, his sacrifice extends to them as well. That is why he went to free them after his death and before his resurrection. His sacrifice is eternal and everyone, from Adam to the last person ever born on this planet have been redeemed by his sacrifice. Whether or not they are saved is dependent upon their response to the grace offered.

I’ll have get to the rest of your post later - just ran out of time.

I would have no problem in a God that sends all those that have sinned to hell and all those that have not sinned to heaven (this is very simplistic, I know) from the beginning of time.

But what you are failing to address Steve, is the “changing of the goalposts” which is being presented by Christian theology. The injustice arises from the proposal that “this is good enough now, but it was not good enough then”

.

 

[Servant19]

Where do some Catholics develop these “half cup empty” approaches to other peoples Faiths from???

It seems almost every day, the Baha’is are defending a new attack from a different Catholic which is based almost completely on false knowledge.

Baha’u’llah spent about 40 years of His life as a prisoner, culminating in what was commonly known as the worst prison on the planet in Akka. He was released in 1879 from this prison finally, and yes He did live the last small portion of His earthly life in relative comfort, but to say “Bahá’u’lláh spent his days writing about goodness while living in a mansion” is a blatant exaggeration simply to promote an agenda to tarnish.

It’s sad, it really is…

.

 

[Servant19]

What I’m saying is that they have seen
the Light as God or the Light as Jesus Christ.

If NDE’s are of interest to you then there are several Baha’i experiences, none more elaborate as that of Reinee Pasarow:

near-death.com/pasarow.html

.

 

[Servant19]

One of the central themes of the Baha’i religion is a concept termed “accompaniment”

This means to love another to such a degree that you would selflessly sacrifice your own will and desires to bring out the best and choicest fruits of the Spirit within others.

Abdu’l-Baha (the eldest son of Baha’u’llah) is the result of that act from Baha’u’llah…

Baha’u’llah so loved His son that He essentially created the Perfect Exemplar in Abdu’l-Baha. Such was His kindness towards His son that in Abdu’l-Baha we have the example by which all human beings should model their lives.

You want to learn about the acts of kindness of Baha’u’llah, read about the life of Abdu’l-Baha.

I am in no wise saying here that Baha’u’llah Himself was not loving…how else would thousands upon thousands sacrifice their earthly needs to dedicate all that they have to serve Him?

Tony has given you a wealthy resource above. The 4 volumes are filled with first hand recollections and diary entries of those who saw Baha’u’llah for who He was. Go read it, if your request is genuine.

Even a brief browse will reveal great insights

.