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Servant19
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Baha’is do not believe in reincarnation.
Just as John the Baptist was the “return” of the Prophet Elijah in His spirit and power, so also is Baha’u’llah the “return” of Jesus Christ in the glory of the Father.
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Just as John the Baptist was the “return” of the Prophet Elijah in His spirit and power, so also is Baha’u’llah the “return” of Jesus Christ in the glory of the Father.
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SteveVH
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Sorry, not even close.Hi there Steve, looking back, I am pretty sure that my post #756 address all the questions you posed in the previous posts. If not please advise of what you wish to discuss more deeply and I am happy to explore further
Please reconcile these quotes:
(Emphasis mine)
(Emphasis mine)
So Truth is Truth and is unchanging and it is contained “in its entirety” in Catholicism, but no longer true today. Please explain and please answer this directly.
Thanks.
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Techno2000
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That of course is you own Personal interpretation of that part of the Bible.Baha’is do not believe in reincarnation.
Just as John the Baptist was the “return” of the Prophet Elijah in His spirit and power, so also is Baha’u’llah the “return” of Jesus Christ in the glory of the Father.
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Servant19
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I see where the dichotomy exists. My apologies, and THANKYOU for pointing this out.
The reason why I said “no longer true today” is because the entirety of the truth of Catholicism is contained in the Baha’i Revelation. With sufficient study and sufficient immersion and application one will no longer see a difference between Catholic Truth and Baha’i Truth. For you this is a stretch, for Baha’is this is very much valid.
The inspired Word of God recorded by the Apostles and the direct Word of God recorded in the Baha’i Revelation are an “ocean of pearls”. Both contain meanings, symbols and life that have not been fully explored. What is contained in the Bible, after 2000 years of exploration has not even been touched upon, by the Church, by the expositions of Muhammad’s Revelation and even, I would add the Baha’i Revelation.
There will be moments in 1000 years from now that people will come realize what the FULL meaning of a given verse in the Bible is.
This is the Baha’i understanding of how the Holy Spirit works. The meanings are hidden. It is how we explore these verses and apply them to our lives more fully, and more perfectly, through the nurturing guidance of an All-Wise Holy Spirit, when we can discern the true meaning of that verse.
All that we can possibly know and understand comes from the outpourings of grace following from the Father and the tender mercies of the Holy Spirit. There is not one good thought or good action that comes from me or you, or any person alive on the planet today. It all comes from God.
He is the Controller, and He prescribes the correct measurement of grace to enable us to uncover the pearls found with the Bible, the Quran and the Baha’i Writings.
Hope that helps
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Servant19
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Techno2000
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Nope, that’s actually God’s interpretation
You are free to reject
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Techno2000
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First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.2 Peter 1:20Nope, that’s actually God’s interpretation
You are free to reject
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Michael1978
Guest
With all due respect, you don’t speak for God. Jesus IS God. He’s alive and well. Baha’u’llah’s corpse is in a tomb in Israel. Jesus will return in glory one day to judge the living and the dead. Repent and be baptized for the hour of His return is at hand. Peace.Nope, that’s actually God’s interpretation
You are free to reject
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SteveVH
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So let me see if I understand. The entirety of the ‘truth of Catholicism’ is contained in the Baha’i Revelation, but not in Catholicism.
I know I’m rather slow, Servant, but aside from the objective contradiction found in your words it also begs the question: If the entirety of the truth of Catholicism is “no longer true” then how can the truth of Catholicism be true in the Baha’i Revelation? How can it be “True” in one and “Not True” in the other when, as you stated, truth is unchanging?
I think you need a little study in the basics of philosophy.
If there is no difference then why does anyone need the “Baha’i Truth” at all? I’m sorry, Servant, but there is a dichotomy in practically everything you say.
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Techno2000
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Two separate Saints, two separate prayers, and you can buy two separate prayer cards.Baha’is do not believe in reincarnation.
Just as John the Baptist was the “return” of the Prophet Elijah in His spirit and power, so also is Baha’u’llah the “return” of Jesus Christ in the glory of the Father.
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Prayer to St. Elijah
O Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel,
You alone are God.
Your servant Elijah lived in your presence,
and acted on your Word.
Help us to drink from the well of his wisdom.
Shelter us in Cherith, and lead us to Carmel,
luring our hearts away from all false gods.
Open our eyes to the needs of those suffering.
Open our mouths to speak comfort and justice.
Open our hearts to your voice in the silence.
Send angels to strengthen us.
Send the rain of your grace to quench our thirst.
Let us break bread with the starving
and bring life to places of death and despair.
Send us as prophets to herald your Gospel.
Allow us to rise to you in paradise.
Those who met your son Jesus saw in him
the spirit of Elijah.
May Elijah lead us to your son.
We ask this in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Prayer to St. John the Baptist
God, You raised up St. John the Baptist to prepare a perfect people for Christ. Fill Your people with the joy of possessing His grace, and direct the minds of all the faithful in the way of peace and salvation. Grant that, as St. John was martyred for truth and justice, so we may energetically profess our Faith in You, and lead others to the Way, the Truth, and Eternal Life. Amen.
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Servant19
Guest
Let me help you then dear friend, quicken you a little if I may?So let me see if I understand. The entirety of the ‘truth of Catholicism’ is contained in the Baha’i Revelation, but not in Catholicism.
I know I’m rather slow, Servant, but aside from the objective contradiction found in your words it also begs the question: If the entirety of the truth of Catholicism is “no longer true” then how can the truth of Catholicism be true in the Baha’i Revelation? How can it be “True” in one and “Not True” in the other when, as you stated, truth is unchanging?
I think you need a little study in the basics of philosophy.
Let us take the concept of circumcision since it seems to be the flavour of the latter parts of this thread!
In Judaism, it is an act of removing the foreskin. The significance is that it is an “indispensible act of consecration and purification”…no circumcision means you go to Gehenna.
In Christianity, the fullness of this truth of circumcision is contained in baptism with water. It is an act of immersion in water to purify the body and the spirit and to imprint God upon the heart of the recipient.
In the Baha’i Faith, the fullness of this truth of baptism is contained in the following three prayerful acts:
- " Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds."
- “Let each morn be better than its eve and each morrow richer than its yesterday”
- Daily morning, evening and obligatory prayer and daily meditation upon the Word of God, found in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.
This is why all the above acts of repentance, consecration and purification are true, because within the realm of spirit, a single Truth can find a myriad expressions in this world of multiplicity.
Circumcision and baptism are both true, but the particular expressions is no longer required when Jesus came (in regards to circumcision) and when Baha’u’llah came (in regards to baptism by water)
This is one example. The underlying purpose behind ALL the seeming contradictions can be explained using the “concepts” enshrined in this example…
Not at all Steve. It requires a new mindset to be adopted. If you cannot understand the underlying Truth enshrined in the above example where circumcision has progressed to daily purification acts for the spirit of man, then its unfortunate. I am sincerely trying to help you
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Techno2000
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But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that person be condemned!Let me help you then dear friend, quicken you a little if I may?
Let us take the concept of circumcision since it seems to be the flavour of the latter parts of this thread!
In Judaism, it is an act of removing the foreskin. The significance is that it is an “indispensible act of consecration and purification”…no circumcision means you go to Gehenna.
In Christianity, the fullness of this truth of circumcision is contained in baptism with water. It is an act of immersion in water to purify the body and the spirit and to imprint God upon the heart of the recipient.
In the Baha’i Faith, the fullness of this truth of baptism is contained in the following three prayerful acts:
In 1000 years or so, a new Revelation will present itself from God, and it will have the fullness of this Baha’i truth enshrined within a different action.
- " Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds."
- “Let each morn be better than its eve and each morrow richer than its yesterday”
- Daily morning, evening and obligatory prayer and daily meditation upon the Word of God, found in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.
This is why all the above acts of repentance, consecration and purification are true, because within the realm of spirit, a single Truth can find a myriad expressions in this world of multiplicity.
Circumcision and baptism are both true, but the particular expressions is no longer required when Jesus came (in regards to circumcision) and when Baha’u’llah came (in regards to baptism by water)
This is one example. The underlying purpose behind ALL the seeming contradictions can be explained using the “concepts” enshrined in this example…
Not at all Steve. It requires a new mindset to be adopted. If you cannot understand the underlying Truth enshrined in the above example where circumcision has progressed to daily purification acts for the spirit of man, then its unfortunate. I am sincerely trying to help you
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Sam
Guest
The Baha’i teachings certainly do not dispute that Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth and the light.”
On the other hand, Jesus also said He had many thing to tell us and that another would come to fulfill that role.
How do we reconcile the above two statements? In one of at least three ways as follows:
- The way, truth and life claim was true for the Dispensation of Jesus. Since Jesus, there have been other Manifestations of God.
- The Manifestations of God (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Baha’u’llah etc.) are in reality One, in the sense that God spoke through Them all, but just in different ages. So in turning to any One of Them, we in fact turn to all of Them.
- In speaking this way, Jesus was speaking with the Voice of God. That doesn’t mean that He was literally God, but that He spoke with the authority invested in Him by God to speak on His behalf.
The same is true of the body of Christ. The body was not the Reality of Christ. God spoke through that Body, but is in fact an invisible Reality somewhere else. This would explain why the Bible states that “God has not been seen at any time.”
Jesus (the human being, the person of Christ) clearly differentiated Himself from God in stating that “God is greater than I.”
meltzerboy
New member
Except that this is NOT the Christian dogma, as I understand it. According to Christian belief, Jesus is both fully human AND fully divine. He is NOT a Manifestation of G-d, an avatar, a voice who uses His body to convey the message of G-d. This belief is so fundamental to the core of Christianity that any other doctrine is and has been throughout the ages regarded as heretical.
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Servant19
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Of course not dear Techno.
I don’t interpret prophecy. No Bahai interprets prophecy…
Our Lord BAHA’U’LLAH is the fulfillment, interpreter and provider of ALL prophecy…
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Servant19
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If this is not Christian dogma then it contradicts Peter:
2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory"
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Servant19
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I do not deny Peters words, nor do I deny Jesus.
I swear by mighty God, I am amongst the resurrected in this mighty Day of Judgement!
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ChristIsTheWay
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Amen!!!
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Sam
Guest
True, that’s the position of the Church, I fully agree and do not deny it. May I kindly and respectfully urge you to at the same time consider that the Gospel teaches us to “be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.” 1 Peter [3:13].
The Baha’i writings themseves teach that faith without reason is mere superstition. And mere dogma, without a sound basis of reasoning, is just that: dogma.
That said, Baha’u’llah too teaches that Jesus is at once human and divine. What we understand this to mean. however, is that He embodies all of the attributes of God, not that He is literally God Himself. Therein lies the difference.
If you take a mirror and point it at the sun, when you look into the mirror, you see the sun. Someone standing some distance away may be tempted to confuse the mirror with the sun and say that the mirror IS the sun, whereas the mirror only reflects the image of the sun; it isn’t the sun itself. Likewise, Jesus manifested the light of God in every way, but He was not God Himself.
That’s a view that accords with reason, and moreover makes sense of all of the statements of Jesus, who it should be pointed out never claimed to be God Himself. Such an idea cannot be reconciled with reason.
The following passage from the Baha’i writings is in reference to Baha’u’llah. However, it could just as well apply to Jesus:
“The divinity attributed to so great a Being and the complete incarnation of the names and attributes of God in so exalted a Person should, under no circumstances, be misconceived or misinterpreted. The human temple that has been made the vehicle of so overpowering a Revelation must, if we be faithful to the tenets of our Faith, ever remain entirely distinguished from that “innermost Spirit of Spirits” and “eternal Essence of Essences” – that invisible yet rational God Who, however much we extol the divinity of His Manifestations on earth, can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in the concrete and limited frame of a mortal being. Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá’í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God – both of which the utterances of Bahá’u’lláh emphatically repudiate and the fallacy of which they expose.” - Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 112-113
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