Believing in the True Jesus vs Baha'u'llah

[tonyfish58]

since this is a catholic website and there are guests on it trying to spread a non-Catholic faith

Dear eddie too - No one Spreads His Faith but God dear friend

You and I are but Gods Witnesses. We talk, we share, God Spreads as He Willeth.

Or - does a person think it is Man’s Power to change ones Heart? Does a person think ones Faith is of ones own doing?

If it is of God it will Endure, the best reflection as to why the Muslim Faith is in the World and still around Dear Friend in God, the source is the same Source that Catholics base their belief upon.

God Bless and regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

When (IF EVER) the Baha’i kingdom forms, arsonists will be burned alive at the stake like witches or thrown in human burning furnaces. So much love.

peace_at_last - Dear friend in God, such deception in Facts has been used by all that reject Religions of the Past.

In fact the same type of Deceptions were used against Muhammad, are you sure your Faith in Muhammad allows for these distortions?

… if you do judge, judge between them justly. Allah loves the just. (Surat al-Maida, 42)

You who believe! show integrity for the sake of Allah, bearing witness with justice. Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to taqwa. Fear [and respect] Allah. Allah is aware of what you do. (Surat al-Maida, 8)

Every nation has a Messenger and when their Messenger comes everything is decided between them justly. They are not wronged. (Surah Yunus, 47)

We sent Our Messengers with the Clear Signs and sent down the Book and the Balance with them so that mankind might establish justice. (Surat al-Hadid, 25)

Say: “My Lord has commanded justice…” (Surat al-A ‘raf, 29)

God Bless Just Replies and Love and Regards Always - Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

1- I am truly amazed at the level of reasoning in your arguments.

Dear peace_at_last - Because dear friend in God you are looking from an entirely different “Frame of Reference”.

One has to Look with the Eye of the Oneness of God that Embraces the Oneness of Mankind.

I have not the patience to explain this subject as it has many many writings and references, if you wish the answers are there and I invite you to look at this link;

bahai-library.com/momen_encyclopedia_covenant

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[peace_at_last]

peace_at_last;12474732:

When (IF EVER) the Baha’i kingdom forms, arsonists will be burned alive at the stake like witches or thrown in human burning furnaces. So much love.

peace_at_last - Dear friend in God, such deception in Facts has been used by all that reject Religions of the Past.

In fact the same type of Deceptions were used against Muhammad, are you sure your Faith in Muhammad allows for these distortions?

… if you do judge, judge between them justly. Allah loves the just. (Surat al-Maida, 42)

You who believe! show integrity for the sake of Allah, bearing witness with justice. Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to taqwa. Fear [and respect] Allah. Allah is aware of what you do. (Surat al-Maida, 8)

Every nation has a Messenger and when their Messenger comes everything is decided between them justly. They are not wronged. (Surah Yunus, 47)

We sent Our Messengers with the Clear Signs and sent down the Book and the Balance with them so that mankind might establish justice. (Surat al-Hadid, 25)

Say: “My Lord has commanded justice…” (Surat al-A ‘raf, 29)

God Bless Just Replies and Love and Regards Always - Tony

Dear Tony,
Deception, huh?! This is Baha’u’llah’s clear order: "“Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn"
You burn someone at a stake, in a furnace, by pouring petrol over them and setting them on fire, throwing them in a volcano … It’s better if you stop playing the victim and observe justice yourself.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Be careful, CITW. It is good for you to be here. You need to dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics, so it would be a shame for you to be banned for being uncharitable. So just take it down a wee bit, and you’ll be fine.

So you are okay with adultery, as long as the cuckolded spouse never finds out? Let’s say a man has cheated on his wife, just once, and it’s been a year now and she has no idea. She is quite happy with their marriage. He is happy too.

He professes, “I had a one night stand. It made me happy. No one got hurt. I used a condom. It was absolutely fine for me to do.”

You are ok with that? Really?

It didn’t harm anyone.

Careful…

More dishonesty on your part. I will have nothing to do with it. You are now on my ignore list.

Dear tonyfish58 you’re right, I ridicule a little,but you ChristIsTheWay and Servant 19 are such,lovely,polite and intelligent people that I feel guilty.I restarted this Thread in the hopes of showing you all some Catholic private revelations but there doesn’t seem to be much interest.So with that said it probably time to stop posting to this Thread because nobody is getting anywhere.

God bless you tonyfish58, ChristIsTheWay and Servant 19

God bless you, Techno. I’ve enjoyed our discussion. Be well.

 

[peace_at_last]

Dear peace_at_last - Because dear friend in God you are looking from an entirely different “Frame of Reference”.

One has to Look with the Eye of the Oneness of God that Embraces the Oneness of Mankind.

I have not the patience to explain this subject as it has many many writings and references, if you wish the answers are there and I invite you to look at this link;

bahai-library.com/momen_encyclopedia_covenant

God Bless and Regards Tony

You posted a link about Baha’is being shunned under Baha’i rule which served no purpose but to further expose the contradictions in Baha’u’llahs words about the abolishment of any sort of shunning:
“Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished.” Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 95

 

[tonyfish58]

You posted a link about Baha’is being shunned under Baha’i rule which served no purpose but to further expose the contradictions in Baha’u’llahs words about the abolishment of any sort of shunning:
“Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished.” Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 95

Read the whole Tablet in Context and you will have your answer

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-43.html

This is Talking about the Shunning of people of other Religions - Not About One who accepts the religion and then Breaks the Covenant and gets a Lawful Sanction.

Dear friend in God with your aim you will only achieve your aim

May you aim be Just - God Bless and regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Dear Tony,
Deception, huh?! This is Baha’u’llah’s clear order: "“Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn"
You burn someone at a stake, in a furnace, by pouring petrol over them and setting them on fire, throwing them in a volcano … It’s better if you stop playing the victim and observe justice yourself.

Dear peace_at_last - What do you know about the implementation of this Law, what do you know about when and if it will be enacted, what do you know about any sundry Laws that would be applicable to these cases?

If you can answer those questions then you would see this is not a Just Post of that Law.

Again God Bless you and may Justice Prevail in all our Hearts - Regards Tony

 

[PRmerger]

More dishonesty on your part. I will have nothing to do with it. You are now on my ignore list.

Your dodge is simply evidence that you cannot refute the logic of what was presented, CITW.

All I did was apply your paradigm.

It appears that you see how wrong your paradigm is: “It’s fine as long as no one gets hurt!” is quite untenable.

It leaves you open to sanctioning adultery, as long as the spouse never finds out.

 

[peace_at_last]

Read the whole Tablet in Context and you will have your answer

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-43.html

This is Talking about the Shunning of people of other Religions - Not About One who accepts the religion and then Breaks the Covenant and gets a Lawful Sanction.

Dear friend in God with your aim you will only achieve your aim

May you aim be Just - God Bless and regards Tony

I read it again and again. It is very clear: “Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished.”

It clearly says WHATSOEVER, i.e. anything that is a cause of shunning, dissension, and division is now abolished. Period. Breaking the covenant clearly falls under the category of WHATSOEVER too.

The contradiction is glaring.

 

[peace_at_last]

Dear peace_at_last - What do you know about the implementation of this Law, what do you know about when and if it will be enacted, what do you know about any sundry Laws that would be applicable to these cases?

If you can answer those questions then you would see this is not a Just Post of that Law.

Again God Bless you and may Justice Prevail in all our Hearts - Regards Tony

Dear Tony,

Whenever and under whatever condition this law is enacted, the fact remains that under Baha’i law people will be burned alive. This is very clear. Throwing a bunch of misleading questions at me will change nothing.

 

[peace_at_last]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbt4naRYVf1qevqc5.gif

Your dodge is simply evidence that you cannot refute the logic of what was presented, CITW.

All I did was apply your paradigm.

It appears that you see how wrong your paradigm is: “It’s fine as long as no one gets hurt!” is quite untenable.

It leaves you open to sanctioning adultery, as long as the spouse never finds out.

Apparently, adultery and fornication are a means for the Universal House of Justice to cover its expenses:
bahaisects.wordpress.com/2014/07/14/bahais-committing-adultery-would-make-the-uhj-richest-organization-in-the-world/

 

[SteveVH]

Creation is made “in the image” of God.

Man is made in the image of God. All of creation reflects something of God, as a painting reflects something of the painter. But God breathed on man and made us different from every other creature. Only we are made in his image and likeness.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

• Genesis1:26-27)

If you believe God Himself came into Creation, then you are a pantheist.

No, Servant, pantheism would be if one believed creation and God were one and the same. We believe only God is divine and uncreated; all else is created, including Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. Why would you believe that an omnipotent God could not “come into creation”? What could possibly stop him if that was his will? He did, in fact, come into creation.

Creation is an “image” or a “reflection” of God’s attributes, everything in creation reflects something of God in the form of an attribute.

The most perfection reflection of ALL of God’s attributes is the Manifestation of God (Baha’u’llah, the Bab, Muhammad, Jesus, etc etc)

Jesus is “… the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.” (Hebrews 1:3)

Where your argument fails is that Jesus was not created. God assumed flesh while giving up none of his divinity. Neither Moses, nor Muhammad nor Baha’u’llah are divine. Jesus is. That is why he is different and why he and only he is the final and full revelation of God to mankind and why we have no need for another.

 

[tonyfish58]

I read it again and again. It is very clear: “Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished.”

It clearly says WHATSOEVER, i.e. anything that is a cause of shunning, dissension, and division is now abolished. Period. Breaking the covenant clearly falls under the category of WHATSOEVER too.The contradiction is glaring.

That dear friend is what happens when one looks with a closed mind, if a person already has an answer before they Judge, then they are bias in Judgement. The answer you got, I can tell you 100%, is not the clear answer.

I in no way wish you to change you, so God Bless you and may God give you all the Love that is His.

Thus the passage in context -

It is incumbent upon every man, in this Day, to hold fast unto whatsoever will promote the interests, and exalt the station, of all nations and just governments. Through each and every one of the verses which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed, the doors of love and unity have been unlocked and flung open to the face of men. We have erewhile declared—and Our Word is the truth—: “Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.” Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished. From the heaven of God’s Will, and for the purpose of ennobling the world of being and of elevating the minds and souls of men, hath been sent down that which is the most effective instrument for the education of the whole human race. The highest essence and most perfect expression of whatsoever the peoples of old have either said or written hath, through this most potent Revelation, been sent down from the heaven of the Will of the All-Possessing, the Ever-Abiding God. Of old it hath been revealed: “Love of one’s country is an element of the Faith of God.” The Tongue of Grandeur hath, however, in the day of His manifestation proclaimed: “It is not his to boast who loveth his country, but it is his who loveth the world.” Through the power released by these exalted words He hath lent a fresh impulse, and set a new direction, to the birds of men’s hearts, and hath 96 obliterated every trace of restriction and limitation from God’s holy Book. reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-43.html

God bless all and Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

what is most puzzling about the bahai teachings, as presented here by bahai, is that there are no negative consequences to never having heard of bahaullah.

all religions are from God, according to the bahai.

according to the bahai, at least those who post here, truth is relative. what is true for people a thousand years ago may or may not be true for the people of today.

i guess, it all depends on what the individual believes. this seems to be the primary shared truth of bahai. whatever you believe is good, but what bahaullah wrote is best. or, something like that.

i really think that if what bahaullah had to say was of significance it would not be so hard for his followers to explain it.

for example, the significance of Jesus Christ is profound and everlasting. Jesus is significant because He overcame death, He brought God’s forgiveness for our sins, He opened the gates of heaven to us sinners here on earth, He changed mankind’s relationship with almighty God, He sent the Holy Spirit for our guidance, He founded a Church and based it on apostolic succession, etc. etc. etc.

Jesus Christ’s significance is unchallengeable. bahaullah’s significance is unknowable, at least as regards to what his followers preach.

why can the followers of bahaullah not explain in their own words his significance to them?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbt4naRYVf1qevqc5.gif

Your dodge is simply evidence that you cannot refute the logic of what was presented, CITW.

All I did was apply your paradigm.

It appears that you see how wrong your paradigm is: “It’s fine as long as no one gets hurt!” is quite untenable.

It leaves you open to sanctioning adultery, as long as the spouse never finds out.

No dodge is intended. You’re a liar, that’s all. I said I can tolerate a wide range of beliefs, not practices like adultery. If you really think that adultery hurts no one as long as the spouse doesn’t find out, I suggest your moral compass is flawed. Dangerously so, but you are not interested in the truth. You are interested in scoring cheap points. This will be my last post to you, as you are now on my ignore list. So, you’re free to score some cheap points without me responding. Go ahead, have fun.

 

[Nick44]

It clearly says WHATSOEVER, i.e. anything that is a cause of shunning, dissension, and division is now abolished. Period. Breaking the covenant clearly falls under the category of WHATSOEVER too.

The contradiction is glaring.

Covenant-breakers are extremely rare and few in number, but the instructions to the Baha’is as to how they are to be treated is crystal clear:

“Bahá’u’lláh and the Master (Abdu’l-Baha) in many places and very emphatically have told us to shun entirely all Covenant-breakers as they are afflicted with what we might try and define as a contagious spiritual disease; they have also told us, however, to pray for them. These souls are not lost forever… It follows therefore that God will forgive any soul if he repents. Most of them don’t want to repent, unfortunately. …Also, it has nothing to do with unity in the Cause; if a man cuts a cancer out of his body to preserve his health and very life, no one would suggest that for the sake of “unity” it should be reintroduced into the otherwise healthy organism! On the contrary, what was once a part of him has so radically changed as to have become a poison.”
(From a letter dated 30 November 1944 written on behalf of the Guardian (Shoghi Effendi) to an individual believer)

As I said, it is a very rare occurrence and in no way applies to those who voluntarily leave the Faith or simply don’t believe in it:

“People who have withdrawn from the Cause because they no longer feel that they can support its Teachings and Institutions sincerely, are not Covenant-breakers—they are non-Bahá’ís and should just be treated as such. Only those who ally themselves actively with known enemies of the Faith who are Covenant-breakers, and who attack the Faith in the same spirit as these people, can be considered, themselves, to be Covenant-breakers…”
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian, March 30, 1957)

 

[tonyfish58]

what is most puzzling about the bahai teachings, as presented here by bahai, is that there are no negative consequences to never having heard of bahaullah.

Dear eddie too - Again all these have been answered on many occasions. I will give you some short answers

Once a person is made aware of Baha’u’llah and His message, the consequence is that of a person in the same situation that rejects Christ, that is Spiritual Death. There is much more on this subject.

all religions are from God, according to the bahai.

All True Religion is from God - Yes (By the Fruits you shall know them)

according to the bahai, at least those who post here, truth is relative. what is true for people a thousand years ago may or may not be true for the people of today.

This is not correct - This has been explained in detail many times before, thus this is either an attempt at deception or one did not look at the previous explanations given.

i guess, it all depends on what the individual believes. this seems to be the primary shared truth of bahai. whatever you believe is good, but what bahaullah wrote is best. or, something like that.

The vagueness in this statement shows no attempt of being charitable to other beliefs

i really think that if what bahaullah had to say was of significance it would not be so hard for his followers to explain it.

It has been explained, it is not hard - The Promised One of All Previous Scripture, the “Return of Christ” in the Bible has been Fulfilled by the Revelations of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Quite significant would you not say?

for example, the significance of Jesus Christ is profound and everlasting. Jesus is significant because He overcame death, He brought God’s forgiveness for our sins, He opened the gates of heaven to us sinners here on earth, He changed mankind’s relationship with almighty God, He sent the Holy Spirit for our guidance, He founded a Church and based it on apostolic succession, etc. etc. etc.

All that and sooooo much more!

Jesus Christ’s significance is unchallengeable. bahaullah’s significance is unknowable, at least as regards to what his followers preach.

If one thinks they Know the True Significance of Christ, then they may find they are not very humble. This statement is applicable to all men.

What is knowable is in the Word from God. History has proved time and again that we think we know what it means only to find out we were wrong.

why can the followers of bahaullah not explain in their own words his significance to them?

Also done many times before - The Way the Truth and the Life dear Friend in God.

We also feel this of All Gods messengers/Prophets, we deny not one of them, to deny One is to deny All

May Jesus the Christ Bless us all with His Promised Light.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

No dodge is intended. You’re a liar, that’s all. I said I can tolerate a wide range of beliefs, not practices like adultery. If you really think that adultery hurts no one as long as the spouse doesn’t find out, I suggest your moral compass is flawed. Dangerously so, but you are not interested in the truth. You are interested in scoring cheap points. This will be my last post to you, as you are now on my ignore list. So, you’re free to score some cheap points without me responding. Go ahead, have fun.

Your personal attacks (“You are a liar”) are going to get you banned if you persist, which would be a shame as you have much to learn about the Christian faith. The fact is that PR has proven your paradigm “it’s fine as long as no one gets hurt” to be in error.

So lets talk about “beliefs”. Do you think that if one is following a false set of doctrines or beliefs that it doesn’t hurt anyone?

Islam claims that Jesus was never crucified or resurrected.

Christianity claims that he was crucified and rose bodily from the dead.

Islam claims that Jesus was just a prophet.

Christian claim that Jesus is God, just as fully as the Father is God.

In the face of these glaring contradictions how can you accept both as true? And if one is false, do you believe that it hurts no one to believe in this false doctrine?

Thanks.

Steve

 

[Nick44]

This is Baha’u’llah’s clear order: ““Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn”.

Baha’u’llah also allows for life imprisonment as an option, too, The law you referenced is not yet in effect, and how and when it will be applied will be determined by the Universal House of Justice, who will decide these matters with justice, and with all possible mitigating factors considered.

God is not a mean ogre, but He does reveal laws suitable to the times and the peoples concerned. Muhammad Himself was the epitamy of justice and mercy, yet the Qur’an contains several no-nonsense punishments:

“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.”
Qur’an 5:33