Believing in the True Jesus vs Baha'u'llah

[tonyfish58]

I think the issue here is that the Baha’i already Believe that the Church was indeed the intended Line of Christs Revelation. Upon the Rock of Peter it was to be based.

Unfortunately the Covenant, though obvious, was overrun by other thoughts based on Mans want for Power and Control and Christs Faith was Split and then Split and Then Split. Thus its ability to be a Uniting Force has been lost for all times. The same happened to Muhammad and His Faith. This is all recorded in the Bible and Koran, so it should not be a surprise.

The Catholic Church will never be able to bring back all those in Christ under the banner of “Being One in Christ”. The division is not reversible.

Thus the Message of Baha’u’llah as promised by Jesus the Christ in the Bible and Mohammad in the Koran. The Word of God in this day has given us the means of being united as One People under One Faith and a Covenant that will not be Broken, many have tried, all have failed and will continue to fail.

Mans want for Power and Prestige always tries to rend the Word of God to suit the agenda of Man, But God is the best of Planners and whenever He sends His Plan we always try to put our Wills above His Will.

Today is as obvious as it was in the Days of Moses and the Day of Christ and the Day of Muhammad.

One can choose to be of the Pharisees or of the Believer, it is each of us that has to make the choice and answer for that choice.

God Bless every one to make the right choice - Regards Tony

 

[Michael1978]

How do I know the Baha’i Faith is true? I’ve already posted my story. Make of it what you will.

As I recall it was based on your feelings and opinion, yes?

 

[Michael1978]

I think the issue here is that the Baha’i already Believe that the Church was indeed the intended Line of Christs Revelation. Upon the Rock of Peter it was to be based.

Unfortunately the Covenant, though obvious, was overrun by other thoughts based on Mans want for Power and Control and Christs Faith was Split and then Split and Then Split. Thus its ability to be a Uniting Force has been lost for all times. The same happened to Muhammad and His Faith. This is all recorded in the Bible and Koran, so it should not be a surprise.

Then you make Jesus out to be a liar when he told Peter that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church that He founded.

 

[tonyfish58]

As I recall it was based on your feelings and opinion, yes?

Dear Michael1978 - Faith will be always only Supported by the Heart and its connection with the Spirit of God.

Thus no Person can Prove Faith.

Each person is on a different journey with each experiencing their own confirmations.

No discussion on this aspect can Prove Faith for others.

After the Manifestation/Prophet has left this earth, The Pure Word of God is the only other thing we can turn to with 100% confidence in its Purity.

In Christianity, that is the Bible.

In Muslim it is the Koran.

In Baha’i, it is those books, and the writings of the Bab, Baha’u’llah and the Interpretation writings of Abdul’Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Then you make Jesus out to be a liar when he told Peter that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church that He founded.

The Church is still here dear Michael1978, I will suggest it will fulfill its destiny some time soon in the Future.

But this is my vision!

I see the Catholic Church will lead all Christians in the way back into Christ, and that is through Baha’u’llah.

This may sound radical, but I see it more and more being so - God Bless you all

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Michael1978]

Dear Michael1978 - Faith will be always only Supported by the Heart and its connection with the Spirit of God.

Thus no Person can Prove Faith.

Each person is on a different journey with each experiencing their own confirmations.

No discussion on this aspect can Prove Faith for others.

After the Manifestation/Prophet has left this earth, The Pure Word of God is the only other thing we can turn to with 100% confidence in its Purity.

In Christianity, that is the Bible.

In Muslim it is the Koran.

In Baha’i, it is those books, and the writings of the Bab, Baha’u’llah and the Interpretation writings of Abdul’Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Catholics are not people of the Book. The three pillars of our Faith are Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the living Magisterium of the Church. So, no, we were not left with a book but with a living Church that traces its roots to Jesus and Peter all the way up to Pope Francis.

 

[Michael1978]

The Church is still here dear Michael1978, I will suggest it will fulfill its destiny some time soon in the Future.

But this is my vision!

I see the Catholic Church will lead all Christians in the way back into Christ, and that is through Baha’u’llah.

This may sound radical, but I see it more and more being so - God Bless you all

God Bless and Regards Tony

You are incorrect. Your sayings are antithetical to the teachings of the Church:

73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.

You can believe what you wish, but you are mistaken to think this is something taught or accepted by the Church.

 

[tonyfish58]

Catholics are not people of the Book. The three pillars of our Faith are Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the living Magisterium of the Church. So, no, we were not left with a book but with a living Church that traces its roots to Jesus and Peter all the way up to Pope Francis.

Michael1978 - If one day it is Found by the Church that Baha’u’llah is indeed the one promised by Jesus and the Bible, then it would have to be considered that the Book was the Ultimate Truth.

God bless your choices and Faith

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

You are incorrect. Your sayings are antithetical to the teachings of the Church:

**73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him. **

You can believe what you wish, but you are mistaken to think this is something taught or accepted by the Church.

Michael1978 - If you find out that in this verse “The Father” was indeed Baha’u’llah, would that not Change a meaning or two for you?

Baha’u’llah (The Glory of God") has Come in the “Station of The Father”, not of “The Son”.

John 14:27"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29"Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.…

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Michael1978]

Michael1978 - If one day it is Found by the Church that Baha’ullah is indeed the one promised by Jesus and the Bible, then it would have to be considered that the Book was the Ultimate Truth.

God bless your choices and Faith

Regards Tony

Jesus is the One promised. Sacred Scripture is inerrant----the same Sacred Scripture that you quote in the previous post—and was declared so by the Church long before Baha’ullah was born. Jesus founded our Church and He is the end of Revelation.

6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Galatians 1:6-9

 

[Michael1978]

Michael1978 - If you find out that in this verse “The Father” was indeed Baha’u’llah, would that not Change a meaning or two for you?

Baha’u’llah (The Glory of God") has Come in the “Station of The Father”, not of “The Son”.

John 14:27"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29"Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.…

God Bless and Regards Tony

The Father is not Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah is a tomb in Israel. The Father is on His throne in Heaven and Jesus is seated at His right side.

Let us read the verses preceding the one’s you quoted so that you can see that the Holy Spirit is one to whom Jesus is referring:

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[Techno2000]

Mystical City of Refuge
"I have not revealed these mysteries in the primitive Church, because they are so great, that the faithful would have been lost in the contemplation and admiration of them at a time when it was more necessary to establish firmly the law of grace and of the Gospel. Although all mysteries of religion are in perfect harmony with each other, yet human ignorance might have suffered recoil and doubt at their magnitude, when faith in the Incarnation and Redemption and the precepts of the new law of the Gospel were yet in their beginnings.

On this same account the person of the incarnate Word said to his disciples at the last supper: “Many things have I to say to you; but you are not yet disposed to recieve them” (John 6, 12). These words He addressed to all the world, for it was not yet capable of giving full obedience to the law of grace and full assent to the faith in the Son, much less was it prepared to be introduced into the mysteries of his Mother. But now, mankind has greater need for this manifestation, and this necessity urges Me to disregard their evil disposition. And if men would now seek to please Me by reverencing, by living, and studying the wonders, which are intimately connected with this Mother of Piety, and if they would all begin to solicit her intercession from their whole heart, the world would find some relief. I will not longer withhold from men this mystical City of refuge; describe and delineate it to them, as far as thy shortcomings allow. I do not intend that thy descriptions and declarations of the life of the Blessed Virgin shall be mere opinions or contemplations, but reliable truth. They that have ears to hear, let them hear. Let those who thirst come to the living waters and leave the dried-out cisterns; let those that are seeking for the light, follow it to the end. Thus speaks the Lord God Almighty!" (Vo1 1., The Mystical City of God: Life of the Virgin Mother of God, manifested to Sister Mary of Jesus of Agreda) themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

CITW, everything here is the opinion of a man.

There is no God Speaking here.

It’s like your dismissal of what’s being written here as “just electronic”. Is there any other way we could discuss here on the CAFs?

Of course not. But do no forget you are basing your faith on the writings of a mere man, not God Himself. These lofty claims made for the Catholic Church are all conjecture and nothing more.

As I recall it was based on your feelings and opinion, yes?

No, it was based on a series of dreams I had that could only have been supernatural in origin. The disagreement here is whether or not it was God or the Devil that sent me the dreams. Obviously, I think and believe that it was God.

 

[Techno2000]

Michael1978 - If one day it is Found by the Church that Baha’u’llah is indeed the one promised by Jesus and the Bible, then it would have to be considered that the Book was the Ultimate Truth.

God bless your choices and Faith

Regards Tony

tonyfish58, can you show me where in the Bible Jesus made this promise of Baha’u’llah.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Here, Micheal1978, is my story one more time:

Anyways, to answer your question I must describe a very personal experience of mine. Last year, I had a series of dreams. A long bearded man kept calling to me while surrounded by the most beautiful light I have ever seen. He told me to follow Him now, for He was the return of Jesus Christ. Each time I woke up, I had no idea what this dream meant. My priest didn’t, either. Finally, after about a week of these dreams I woke up with a word on my lips, “Baha’i.” I had never heard of the Baha’i before but I immediately searched the web. I wasn’t too sure of the spelling but God guided me to the Wikipedia page on the Baha’i Faith. I read through it and seemed like a most wonderful discovery but I was still unsure. Then I clicked on the link for the article on Baha’u’llah. In that page, I saw a photograph of Baha’u’llah. He looked exactly like the man in my dreams. I started crying because I had discovered something so beautiful, so meaningful and it was a Person. I found my way to the USA Baha’i website and made my declaration. As for specifics that I see as advantages, I come to see the merit of the Baha’i explanation of the Trinity, the Baha’i idea of successive messengers of God, the unity of the human race, the unity of religion, the unity of God, and so much more to be advantages. I mean this with absolute respect for my former faith tradition, Catholicism. Anyways, I know this probably confused you more than it explained anything but that’s my story. God bless.

 

[Techno2000]

I come to see the merit of the Baha’i explanation of the Trinity

THE TRINITY

113
Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.
The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence. 1
God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion 114 of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man 2 is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.
Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. 115
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved.

You can’t be talking about this convoluted mess, lets go through it line by line.

 

[Techno2000]

The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception.

What in the world is that supposed mean and who wrote this?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception.

What in the world is that supposed mean and who wrote this?

I doubt we’ll get very far with this. I’ll offer an explanation, which you will probably call “vague” or something similar. But I’ll bite.

Abdu’l Baha is the author I believe. You’re quoting Some Answered Questions, if I am not mistaken.

The meaning, as I understand it, is that God is ineffable. That is, the human mind can not conceive what the Divine Essence is. God is, in a sense, unknowable. To get ahead of ourselves, what we can know of God is what we see in His Manifestations. I hope my fellow Baha’is here can shed some more light on this. Please keep in mind that I have only been Baha’i for a year and a half. There is still so much more for me to learn. Please forgive me, friend.

 

[tonyfish58]

Please keep in mind that I have only been Baha’i for a year and a half. There is still so much more for me to learn. Please forgive me, friend.

Dear ChristsTheWay - Time is not a consideration Dear Friend

The questions posted above have been answered many times before Dear friend, this repetition is just to cause confusion.

I would consider this before answering any repeated question;

"…refrain, under any circumstances, from involving yourselves, much less the Cause, in lengthy discussions of a controversial character, as these besides being fruitless actually cause incalculable harm to the Faith…urged us not to engage in religious controversies,…the Bahá’í…should be concerned above all in presenting the Message, in explaining and clarifying all its aspects, rather than in attacking other religions. **He should avoid all situations that, he feels, would lead to strife, to hair-splitting and interminable discussions.
**
(From a letter dated 29 November 1937 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

I posted this as it is good advice to all Teachers of All Religions.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

I doubt we’ll get very far with this. I’ll offer an explanation, which you will probably call “vague” or something similar. But I’ll bite.

Abdu’l Baha is the author I believe. You’re quoting Some Answered Questions, if I am not mistaken.

The meaning, as I understand it, is that God is ineffable. That is, the human mind can not conceive what the Divine Essence is. God is, in a sense, unknowable. To get ahead of ourselves, what we can know of God is what we see in His Manifestations. I hope my fellow Baha’is here can shed some more light on this. Please keep in mind that I have only been Baha’i for a year and a half. There is still so much more for me to learn. Please forgive me, friend.

Its a wonderful explanation dear brother

God bless you and your loved ones

.