Believing in the True Jesus vs Baha'u'llah

[Techno2000]

I doubt we’ll get very far with this. I’ll offer an explanation, which you will probably call “vague” or something similar. But I’ll bite.

Abdu’l Baha is the author I believe. You’re quoting Some Answered Questions, if I am not mistaken.

The meaning, as I understand it, is that God is ineffable. That is, the human mind can not conceive what the Divine Essence is. God is, in a sense, unknowable. To get ahead of ourselves, what we can know of God is what we see in His Manifestations. I hope my fellow Baha’is here can shed some more light on this. Please keep in mind that I have only been Baha’i for a year and a half. There is still so much more for me to learn. Please forgive me, friend.

OMG, Abdu’l Baha wrote this, and he is the same guy you all go to for interpretation of his Daddy Baha’u’llah writings, just this one line alone would baffle the scholars at the Vatican. Lets take it apart some more shall we…

 

[Servant19]

The Father is not Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah is a tomb in Israel. The Father is on His throne in Heaven and Jesus is seated at His right side.

Indeed He was.

Before He was born into this world, He was in heaven and Jesus was sitting at His right side.
While He walked the earth, He was also in heaven and Jesus was sitting at His right side.
When His physical body died, He was in heaven and Jesus was sitting at His right side.

This is from the memoirs of Hájí Muhammad Táhir. The words “Blessed Beauty” and “Blessed Perfection” are in reference to Baha’u’llah:

(and yes, before you all clamour and shout, Baha’u’llah was taken to live in relative comfort after 40 years of tortuous imprisonment in prisons you would not survive one day in today without taking the government to court):

On the evening that the Blessed Beauty, exalted be His glory, was to move to the Mansion of Bahjí, this servant and Nabíl-i-A’zam were staying at our residence, which was a room we both shared. It was situated on the upper floor of the Khán-i-Súq-i-Abyad. The room had five glass windows overlooking the road. We were both sitting at the windows looking out, waiting to behold His blessed Person as He passed by. It was nearly two hours after sunset, when we saw Him pass in front of our room riding on a special white donkey. A few steps behind Him, riding on, his donkey, was Khádimu’lláh (the Servant of God) Mírzá Áqá Ján. When He passed out of our sight, Nabíl suggested that we follow Him on foot to the Mansion to circumambulate it and then return home. With much enthusiasm I welcomed the suggestion. We both ran down the stairs immediately and walked quickly behind Him, keeping a distance of about fifty steps. That evening an oil lamp was burning inside the Mansion and we could see its light from outside. It was a very large oil lamp which had three wicks. I was familiar with this lamp because we {Hájí

Muhammad Táhir and Muhammad Khán-i-Balúch} had brought it with us to the Holy Land. It was presented to the Blessed Beauty by Hájí Siyyid Mírzáy-i-Afnán from Bombay. When the Blessed Perfection dismounted and went inside the Mansion, we walked toward the building in order to circumambulate. But when we came a little closer we saw to our amazement that the footpaths around the walls of the Mansion were packed with people, who were standing. Crowds had assembled around the four sides of the Mansion and we could hear their murmuring as well as their breathing. Of course we knew that no one had come from 'Akká to circumambulate the Mansion, and we two had gone there without permission. Anyhow, since there was no room to walk on the footpath we stepped back, and at a distance of about thirty steps from the Mansion we circumambulated. To do this we had to walk in some wheatfields and, as it happened, the ground had been recently watered, so we had to walk through muddy fields. As we circled the Mansion we could sense the presence of the multitude on the four sides of the building at some distance from us. In the end we prostrated ourselves on the ground opposite the Gate of the Mansion, and returned to 'Akká. On the way back heavy rain poured down on us, and just as we arrived at the gate of 'Akká, the guards were about to close it. Normally they used to close the gate every night four hours after sunset.

When we arrived home, Nabíl suggested that we ought not to sleep that night and instead keep vigil.* He said to me, 'I will compose poems and you make tea.' I made tea several times during the night and Nabíl was engaged in writing poetry. He was a gifted poet, he used to compose extemporaneously. By the morning, he had produced poems written on both sides of a large sheet of paper. We sent a copy of his poems, together with two sugar cones, to the Blessed Beauty. His poems were mainly about history, the history of Bahá'u'lláh's imprisonment, His banishment to Baghdád, Istanbul, Adrianople and 'Akká, the sufferings He had endured in the barracks, the story of the building of the Mansion by 'Údí Khammár, and 'Abdu'l-Bahá renting it to serve as a residence for the Blessed Perfection.

He then described the events of the evening Bahá’u’lláh went to the Mansion, and how we both followed Him,** the account of our circumambulation when we saw the souls of all the Prophets and Messengers and the Concourse on high assembled outside the Mansion, circumambulating the throne of their Lord.** In these poems Nabíl described in detail our keeping vigil, his own writing poems, and my making tea.

When His Blessed Person received the poems of Nabíl, He revealed a Tablet in honour of Nabíl and myself. In it He graciously accepted our pilgrimage to the Mansion, conferred upon Nabíl the title of Bulbul (Nightingale) and upon myself Bahháj (the Blissful).

.

 

[Techno2000]

Its a wonderful explanation dear brother

God bless you and your loved ones

.

Severely lacking

 

[Servant19]

OMG, Abdu’l Baha wrote this, and he is the same guy you all go to for interpretation of his Daddy Baha’u’llah writings, just this one line alone would baffle the scholars at the Vatican. Lets take it apart some more shall we…

Just shows how far behind the world is in their ability to read God’s Word then, if thats the case.

ChristIsTheWay has been a Baha’i for just over a year and already the Holy Spirit has enabled Him to decipher a religious Truth that the scholars at the Vatican would be baffled by, as you say…

I personally know of one of the scholars at the Vatican, and I know what he thinks and how he admires the Baha’i Writings. So I guess the common link is you. Are YOU being sincere in your motives Techno?

.

 

[Techno2000]

The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception.

What is this Divine Reality?

Why does it have be purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings ?

Why it can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence ?

What in the hell is meant by:" exempt from all conception" ?

 

[Servant19]

The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception.

What is this Divine Reality?

Why does it have be purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings ?

Why it can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence ?

What in the hell is meant by:" exempt from all conception" ?

What you fail to grasp dear friend, is that you are in actuality unwittingly mocking the Catholic AND the Bahai religions with your posts…

What is this Divine Reality? The Divine Reality in Catholicism is known as the Deus a se

Why does it have be purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings ?

Because the Deus a se is distinct from the concept of Deus pro nobis (God for us). Deus a se, according to Catholic teaching is the unknowable, inaccessible aspect of God. No matter how hard you try, for however long, as a human being, you can’t even get close to the Deus a se

Why it can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence ?
Because people of wisdom and intelligence are at the end of the day human beings. Now read the answer to the question above again

What in the hell is meant by:" exempt from all conception" ? No need to be so brash dear friend. The Deus a se is beyond even the imagination, the inspiration and the highest thought of human beings. Conception means to conceive things, through thought, imagination and inspiration. The Deus a se is beyond all of those things.

If this is still vague for you, I encourage you to study your own religion more

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[ChristIsTheWay]

Dear ChristsTheWay - Time is not a consideration Dear Friend

The questions posted above have been answered many times before Dear friend, this repetition is just to cause confusion.

I would consider this before answering any repeated question;

"…refrain, under any circumstances, from involving yourselves, much less the Cause, in lengthy discussions of a controversial character, as these besides being fruitless actually cause incalculable harm to the Faith…urged us not to engage in religious controversies,…the Bahá’í…should be concerned above all in presenting the Message, in explaining and clarifying all its aspects, rather than in attacking other religions. **He should avoid all situations that, he feels, would lead to strife, to hair-splitting and interminable discussions.
**
(From a letter dated 29 November 1937 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

I posted this as it is good advice to all Teachers of All Religions.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Perhaps you are right, dear friend. If one can not understand the clear and concise explanation of Abdu’l Baha, how on Earth am I supposed to explain it?

Its a wonderful explanation dear brother

God bless you and your loved ones

.

Thanks. God bless you and yours as well.

Severely lacking

Exactly as I predicted. As my explanation was not appreciated, I choose to bow out of this conversation on the Trinity. Perhaps we could discuss something new?

 

[PRmerger]

Of course not. But do no forget you are basing your faith on the writings of a mere man, not God Himself. These lofty claims made for the Catholic Church are all conjecture and nothing more.

Well, it is only “conjecture” in the same way that saying God created the universe is conjecture.

Or that saying “This foundation has met the requirements of physics and will withstand all the force it is required to support the building” is conjecture.

Or saying, “I vow to love my husband until death do us part” is conjecture.

If you want to call those things conjecture, then so be it.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Well, it is only “conjecture” in the same way that saying God created the universe is conjecture.

Or that saying “This foundation has met the requirements of physics and will withstand all the force it is required to support the building” is conjecture.

Or saying, “I vow to love my husband until death do us part” is conjecture.

If you want to call those things conjecture, then so be it.

The truth of Catholicism is not so well established as the examples you provide. But to each his own, I suppose. God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

The truth of Catholicism is not so well established as the examples you provide. But to each his own, I suppose. God bless.

It is absolutely as well established. Even more so.

At any rate, whatever you have objected to with Catholicism would apply equally to the Bahai faith, so that puts you in a predicament as a believer, right?

 

[Servant19]

It is absolutely as well established. Even more so.

At any rate, whatever you have objected to with Catholicism would apply equally to the Bahai faith, so that puts you in a predicament as a believer, right?

I actually think ChristIsTheWay’s experience is not too dissimilar to the Apostle Paul’s experience. An experience like that puts one in a cognitive dissonance, as it did with Paul, but as with Paul, my dear brother CITW went with his experience, and luck for him that he did

.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

It is absolutely as well established. Even more so.

At any rate, whatever you have objected to with Catholicism would apply equally to the Bahai faith, so that puts you in a predicament as a believer, right?

Like I said, to each his own. God bless.

I actually think ChristIsTheWay’s experience is not too dissimilar to the Apostle Paul’s experience. An experience like that puts one in a cognitive dissonance, as it did with Paul, but as with Paul, my dear brother CITW went with his experience, and luck for him that he did

.

Thank you, Servant. I never thought of my experience being like that of Paul before. I did see a bright light, my Lord standing in it, and Him calling out to me to follow Him. I feel very lucky, indeed!

 

[PRmerger]

Like I said, to each his own. God bless.

Some of the “owns” though are wrong.

I don’t think it’s right to give permission, for example, for someone to say “My religion preaches that women are stupid.”

I certainly wouldn’t apply your logic and shrug and say, “Well, to each his own!”

Would you? Really?

 

[Servant19]

Some of the “owns” though are wrong.

I don’t think it’s right to give permission, for example, for someone to say “My religion preaches that women are stupid.”

I certainly wouldn’t apply your logic and shrug and say, “Well, to each his own!”

Would you? Really?

Well we keep on asking this question, what teaching in the Baha’i Faith results in social harm, as per the example you provided?

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[Techno2000]

What you fail to grasp dear friend, is that you are in actuality unwittingly mocking the Catholic AND the Bahai religions with your posts…

What is this Divine Reality? The Divine Reality in Catholicism is known as the Deus a se

Why does it have be purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings ?

Because the Deus a se is distinct from the concept of Deus pro nobis (God for us). Deus a se, according to Catholic teaching is the unknowable, inaccessible aspect of God. No matter how hard you try, for however long, as a human being, you can’t even get close to the Deus a se

Why it can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence ?
Because people of wisdom and intelligence are at the end of the day human beings. Now read the answer to the question above again

What in the hell is meant by:" exempt from all conception" ? No need to be so brash dear friend. The Deus a se is beyond even the imagination, the inspiration and the highest thought of human beings. Conception means to conceive things, through thought, imagination and inspiration. The Deus a se is beyond all of those things.

If this is still vague for you, I encourage you to study your own religion more

.

You forgot to tell ChristIsTheWay about the Deus a se.

 

[Servant19]

You forgot to tell ChristIsTheWay about the Deus a se.

He knows more about Deus a se than anyone on this thread, including me.

I’m sure he will pray for you too…

.

 

[Techno2000]

He knows more about Deus a se than anyone on this thread, including me.

I’m sure he will pray for you too…

.

Ok, Servant19 can you give me the page number in the Catechism
of the Catholic Church of this Deus a se… please.

 

[Servant19]

Ok, Servant19 can you give me the page number in the Catechism
of the Catholic Church of this Deus a se… please.

Nope, I can’t (hint, it’s not in there)

Now go out and search dear brother, search!!

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(p.s. I’m not making this Deus a se up)

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[Techno2000]

That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

What does… multiplicity are properties of creatures; mean ?

What does… contingent existences; mean ?

What does… not accidents which happen to the self-existent.; mean?

 

[Techno2000]

Nope, I can’t (hint, it’s not in there)

Now go out and search dear brother, search!!

.

(p.s. I’m not making this Deus a se up)

.

I know because its too mysterious