Believing without direct verification

[inocente]

So if it says in Corinthians that the risen Jesus was seen by 500 people, we must not take a literal view of that. Which I don’t. Yet so many here will do so.

Who is the fundamentalist in that case?

Hi, my name’s inocente, I’ll be your fundamentalist today.

“After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.” - 1 Cor 15

Btw that’s not exactly 500, it’s > 500. Paul could be talking of some kind of small scale Fátima, but I think not. He uses the same word ὤφθη three times. The original Greek is translated as appeared, perceived, or saw. He uses that word for when Christ appeared to him also, “as to one abnormally born”. I’m also born again. Christ appeared to me also. Not as some shimmering whatsit, all glowing and mystical, but as in revealed, as in revelation. An epiphany. A sudden insight, a revelatory manifestation. So I think that’s maybe what Paul means because he continues:

“For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect.”

By grace. More than 500. That was one doozy of an alter call. Can I get an amen?

 

[goout]

We treat them as being less than reliable.

You do this in everyday life when it comes to important matters. Why not here?

Well if you’re anything like me or any other person who has lived, you are a contradiction.
Most of us have witnesses who say we are the greatest thing since the flush toilet.
And, at the same time we have witnesses who say we are Hitler’s lost brother and they can’t stand us.

And we earn those contradictions by sometimes being nice and sometimes not so nice.
That makes you and I a walking breathing contradiction.

In spite of the contradictory witness about yourself, I think you would still say “I Am”. Right?

So contradiction is not the mother of all refutations of reality. Contradiction is simply a fact of life to be dealt with. It should not cause fear or skepticism, per se…
Contradiction doesn’t begin to disprove the truth of Christ any more than it disproves you.

 

[tonyrey]

According to this argument there has to be absolute unanimity for an account to be true yet the larger the number of observers the more likely it is for some to be mistaken or even sceptical at the outset. In such cases it is more reasonable to be open-minded and consider the context in which these events occurred and the implications of the belief that they are false. Is it likely that an international organisation based on human rights and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity which has lasted for more than two thousand years is derived from a pack of lies, superstition and/or self-deception?

It is significant there is no response to these** facts** which are far more compelling than mere opinions…

And again, we are not talking about a numerical discrepancy. We are talking about reports that contradict each other. That do not agree with each other. That say different things.

According to this argument there has to be absolute unanimity for an account to be true yet the larger the number of observers the more likely it is for some to be mistaken or even sceptical at the outset - nor is everyone equally observant or accurate. If there were no discrepancies it could be argued - and it is more likely - that the accounts were devised to deceive…

 

[tonyrey]

Well if you’re anything like me or any other person who has lived, you are a contradiction.
Most of us have witnesses who say we are the greatest thing since the flush toilet.
And, at the same time we have witnesses who say we are Hitler’s lost brother and they can’t stand us.

And we earn those contradictions by sometimes being nice and sometimes not so nice.
That makes you and I a walking breathing contradiction.

In spite of the contradictory witness about yourself, I think you would still say “I Am”. Right?

So contradiction is not the mother of all refutations of reality. Contradiction is simply a fact of life to be dealt with. It should not cause fear or skepticism, per se…
Contradiction doesn’t begin to disprove the truth of Christ any more than it disproves you.

Neat!

 

[Bradski]

Not as some shimmering whatsit, all glowing and mystical, but as in revealed, as in revelation. An epiphany. A sudden insight, a revelatory manifestation. So I think that’s maybe what Paul means…

A reasonable interpretation. Yet not one I have ever heard before in this forum. In every other case, this figure is thrown up as one of the proofs that the resurection happened. To paraphrase:

‘He was seen by 500 hundred people. It says so in the bible. Were they all lying? Were they all mistaken? That’s not credible, so therefore Jesus must have risen.’

All my arguments have been opposing those who do take it literally. I should point them to your post when it next comes up.

 

[Bradski]

So contradiction is not the mother of all refutations of reality. Contradiction is simply a fact of life to be dealt with. It should not cause fear or skepticism, per se…
Contradiction doesn’t begin to disprove the truth of Christ any more than it disproves you.

I’m not sure that I’ve seen a post where anyone has said: ‘there are contradictions, therefore it disproves the truth of Christ’. Maybe I missed it…

But you are right. Contradiction is a fact of life which definately needs to be dealt with. And it should, almost as a matter of course, cause a degree of skepticism. Or at the very least, a pause for thought. An honest appraisal of the facts.

You have plenty to deal with. Lots of opportunity for practice.