Bells ringing during the Consecration - OF Mass

[SmokeRing]

For the last several years, the Festa Italiana Mass shot cannons after the consecration of both species…I LOVED that.

Too bad they don’t do it anymore, but I kinda understand why…

That’s something that is not specified by the rubrics of the Mass.

 

[SmokeRing]

My parish doesn’t do it, but a few nearby parishes have them.** An Eastern Catholic Church I attend also has them.**

I like them! More!

I’m not sure why my parish doesn’t do it. I just figured that they were goofy.

On really? What sort of Eastern Catholic church? Do they actually ring the bells at the epiclesis and elevation of the chalice? If they do, that would be a prohibited abuse. A latinization. Do they use hand-held bell(s)? Depending on the church that too would likely a specifically prohibited latinization.

 

[Mark1970]

That is the epiclesis, where the Holy Spirit is called down upon the gifts of bread and wine.

Thanks - saved me from using the term and then having to explain it for the people who don’t know it.

 

[I_Thirst]

On really? What sort of Eastern Catholic church? Do they actually ring the bells at the epiclesis and elevation of the chalice? If they do, that would be a prohibited abuse. A latinization. Do they use hand-held bell(s)? Depending on the church that too would likely a specifically prohibited latinization.

I should have been clearer. They have bells, but they don’t use them as the Latin Rite uses them.

 

[JReducation]

The ringing of the bells has always had many variations to it, depending on the country, the religious order and the size of the congregation.

There are many stories about why they were introduced. Some of them have been commented on here. Another one that I heard was they they were introduced to awaken the monks, because they celebrated mass in the early hours of the morning. These men got up at 4:00.

I don’t know which story is true or if it’s all the above. I know that we don’t use them in our chapels, but we do use them in our parishes. That has always been the case since 1209. If someone else paid for them, we used them. If the friars had to pay for them, St. Francis did not allow them. He only allows the basics: a missal, a chalice, a patten, and the book of the Gospels.

The rules have never been consistent. That being said, I like the the triple set. Some places use one bell and it does not sound the same. The sound is less rich.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[anp1215]

I’ve never been to a Mass where the bells weren’t rung…I thought they were used at every Mass.

Interesting, learn something new every day I suppose.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yeah, I’ve never been to a Sanctus bell-less mass. Also at my home parish, the belltower bells are rung before every mass.

 

[JReducation]

I’ve never been to a Mass where the bells weren’t rung…I thought they were used at every Mass.

Interesting, learn something new every day I suppose.

Yeah, I’ve never been to a Sanctus bell-less mass. Also at my home parish, the belltower bells are rung before every mass.

Some places are too poor to afford them. They’re very expensive. They weren’t always expensive, because there were craftsmen who would make them in the local towns and villages. Those days are gone. Today, you have to buy them from companies.

When I was in the missions we used clappers. It takes a while to get used to the sound. That’s a sound that will wake you up, if you start to dose off.

Most of our conventual chapels don’t have them.

Look at some of these prices Church Supply Warehouse

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[YoungTradCath]

Some places are too poor to afford them. They’re very expensive. They weren’t always expensive, because there were craftsmen who would make them in the local towns and villages. Those days are gone. Today, you have to buy them from companies.

When I was in the missions we used clappers. It takes a while to get used to the sound. That’s a sound that will wake you up, if you start to dose off.

Most of our conventual chapels don’t have them.

Look at some of these prices Church Supply Warehouse

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes but…maybe I’m confusing Sanctus bells with something else. What I mean to say is that I’ve never been to a mass where bells weren’t rung at the consecration. Most of the time, these bells consist of a small handheld set of three bells connected. Those can’t cost that much, nothing past several hundred bucks.

Also, the parish that I attend rings the bells in the belltower before every mass. These bells are separate from the handheld ones used at the consecration. I HAVE been to many masses without these bells. I can see where these could approach many tens of thousands, if not several hundred thousand, dollars.

Oh how I wish they would bring back into common usage the wall-mounted bell rung to signify the beginning of mass. At the parish I attend, someone has to actually stand at the front of the church so that he can see when Father is ready to start the mass. Father will do a thumbs-up to tell the guy that he’s ready, all the while the guy is craning around to see. Then, the guy has to thumbs-up the organist because he’s up on the choir loft. It would be much easier, I think, and many times more elegant, for Father to tell an altar boy to go ring the (hypothetical) wall-mounted bell, so none of that would be necessary.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

They are no more expensive in a church supply catalog than a nice candlestick. You can find a typical set of four altar bells in lower-priced catalogs like Autom for around $70. More expensive bells run around $300-500. You can also purchase something called shaft bells or harness bells at places which sell horse tack. They are the exact same cup bells with three clappers, but mounted to a straight metal bar instead of a fancy handle, and those average about $40.

In my diocese, I don’t know of any parish which does NOT use altar bells. In fact, many parishes here have two sets, one on either side of the altar.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Some places are too poor to afford them. They’re very expensive. They weren’t always expensive, because there were craftsmen who would make them in the local towns and villages. Those days are gone. Today, you have to buy them from companies.

They are no more expensive in a church supply catalog than a nice candlestick. You can find a typical set of four altar bells in lower-priced catalogs like Autom or Almy’s for around $70. Cheaper sets run around $35, but have thinner-walled bells are are quieter. You can also purchase something called shaft bells or harness bells at places which sell horse tack. They are the exact same cup bells with three clappers, but mounted to a straight metal bar instead of a fancy handle, and those average about $40.

In my diocese, I don’t know of any parish which does NOT use altar bells. In fact, many parishes here have two sets, one on either side of the altar.

 

[JReducation]

Again, we’re looking at this from our American perspective. In the USA, a parish can afford $50.00+ for a set of bells. In a developing nation, $50.00 is one month salary for the common man. Things like this have to be imported, which makes them more expensive.

There was no way that Franciscans were going to justify this to their Holy Father. The local people made these wooden clappers that are tied with leather. As I said, it takes a while to get used to the sound, but eventually, you don’t even notice.

In our conventual chapels, we don’t use them, unless someone donates them, for the same reason. Every extra penny that comes in goes into the food pantry for the poor, the baby room for the unborn, and other needs of the poor.

You have to remember, our founder was the man who gave away the missal to be sold for money to buy food for the poor and then had the brothers walk several miles, in the snow, to go to mass, because they didn’t have a missal in the house. This is the same man who asked the pope to give the order a simple form of the mass, because the form that was in use required too many books, had too much luxury and set the priest apart from the non ordained friars. His motto was simplify simplify simplify.

I don’t see our people putting out a lot of money for bells, unless it’s donated for that purpose. In parishes, it’s different, because parishes generate their own money. Franciscans who serve in parishes only get a stipend. Almost everything goes back into the parish. If the parish has the money, they buy such things.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[anp1215]

Again, we’re looking at this from our American perspective. In the USA, a parish can afford $50.00+ for a set of bells. In a developing nation, $50.00 is one month salary for the common man. Things like this have to be imported, which makes them more expensive.

There was no way that Franciscans were going to justify this to their Holy Father. The local people made these wooden clappers that are tied with leather. As I said, it takes a while to get used to the sound, but eventually, you don’t even notice.

In our conventual chapels, we don’t use them, unless someone donates them, for the same reason. Every extra penny that comes in goes into the food pantry for the poor, the baby room for the unborn, and other needs of the poor.

You have to remember, our founder was the man who gave away the missal to be sold for money to buy food for the poor and then had the brothers walk several miles, in the snow, to go to mass, because they didn’t have a missal in the house. This is the same man who asked the pope to give the order a simple form of the mass, because the form that was in use required too many books, had too much luxury and set the priest apart from the non ordained friars. His motto was simplify simplify simplify.

I don’t see our people putting out a lot of money for bells, unless it’s donated for that purpose. In parishes, it’s different, because parishes generate their own money. Franciscans who serve in parishes only get a stipend. Almost everything goes back into the parish. If the parish has the money, they buy such things.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Interesting. At the parish I used to attend, there was a handbell group. Sometimes they would play at Mass. Very lovely. Anyway, they had practice very Thursday night in the church, at the same time RCIA class was going on (in the meeting room). They had a lot of bells, and they had to wear gloves when using them. I remember someone saying that set cost something around 9,000 dollars. I wonder if those were the same bells they used during the consecration.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Again, we’re looking at this from our American perspective. In the USA, a parish can afford $50.00+ for a set of bells. In a developing nation, $50.00 is one month salary for the common man. Things like this have to be imported, which makes them more expensive.

In the poorest parts of the world, people make do with the best that they can. In the South Pacific, outside bells are commonly fashioned from discarded welding tanks. In Mexico the consecration is often announced with large bottle rockets. Most of the people on this board live in North America or Europe, where altar bells and other liturgical items are often owned but never used, or could be easily purchased by most parishes.

 

[JReducation]

Interesting. At the parish I used to attend, there was a handbell group. Sometimes they would play at Mass. Very lovely. Anyway, they had practice very Thursday night in the church, at the same time RCIA class was going on (in the meeting room). They had a lot of bells, and they had to wear gloves when using them. I remember someone saying that set cost something around 9,000 dollars. I wonder if those were the same bells they used during the consecration.

There is definitely an art to making them sound rich. Did you just say $9K? For hand bells?

Do you realize how many diapers we can buy with $9K?

In the poorest parts of the world, people make do with the best that they can. In the South Pacific, outside bells are commonly fashioned from discarded welding tanks. In Mexico the consecration is often announced with large bottle rockets. Most of the people on this board live in North America or Europe, where altar bells and other liturgical items are often owned but never used, or could be easily purchased by most parishes.

Correct me if I’m wrong; but I sense a bite in your post, which is not necessary. I started by saying that there was not a consistent norm on the use of the bells. I then went on to explain that the difference in usage was due to religious orders, customs, countries and resources.

Finally, I also said that those parishes that can afford them, can have them, unless there is a regulatioin why they cannot. To the best of my knowledge, I know of only one religious community that would not use them, because they view this as an unnecessary expense . . . but I don’t think they run any parishes. If you attend mass at a conventual chapel, you might not find them for the same reason.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Correct me if I’m wrong; but I sense a bite in your post, which is not necessary. I started by saying that there was not a consistent norm on the use of the bells. I then went on to explain that the difference in usage was due to religious orders, customs, countries and resources.

Finally, I also said that those parishes that can afford them, can have them, unless there is a regulatioin why they cannot. To the best of my knowledge, I know of only one religious community that would not use them, because they view this as an unnecessary expense . . . but I don’t think they run any parishes. If you attend mass at a conventual chapel, you might not find them for the same reason.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

No bite to you personally, but I am weary of the liturgical minimalism and iconoclasm that has infected the Church in North America. Not only bells (which the GIRM does not require but states may be used) but sacred art, music, and overall liturgical reverence have all but disappeared in many places. It is true that most of these things are not required for a valid Mass, but they serve to remind us of our heavenly goal.

 

[JReducation]

No bite to you personally, but I am weary of the liturgical minimalism and iconoclasm that has infected the Church in North America. Not only bells (which the GIRM does not require but states may be used) but sacred art, music, and overall liturgical reverence have all but disappeared in many places. It is true that most of these things are not required for a valid Mass, but they serve to remind us of our heavenly goal.

I think that the problem is a clash of cultures, not a disagreement in values. While I agree with what you say, I also see the liturgy from the perspective of one who belongs to an international religious community with an 800-year history, one who has been on three continents and five countries. When I see some posts and comments about liturgy, I cringe; because they often make absolute statements about things that are not absolutes.

I think of the many people whom I’ve met along the way who do things differently. I think of our brothers and sisters who have a rich tradition that embraces 114 countries, 1.7 million Franciscans and spans 800 years. I think of the many other religious and diocesan clergy in other parts of the world with very different situations. The fact that people belong to the same Church and know nothing about the rest of the Church is sad. Today, we make a great effort to study world cultures, international business, international law, and to stay on top of the news around the world. Yet, we know so little about the Church beyond our backyard.

I think it’s good for people to have a liturgical celebration that lifts the heart and mind to God and that points to eternity. At the same time, it is important that all of us be well educated in that which is outside of our corner of the Church, if for no other reason, to be knowledgeable of Catholic culture.

There is a risk of seeing Catholic culture only from our reality. This can happen to those who lean toward tradition as well as those who lean toward creativity.

Personally, I believe that there is no need to be creative in liturgy. You can’t improve on what is already holy. However, I also believe that every Catholic should be knowledgeable about our rich Catholic liturgical tradition and diversity. We no longer live in a world where people are isolated from others. Today, we have the means of communication, such as what we’re using right now. There is no reason why a Catholic should not know what different religious orders do at mass, what different cultures do, what different Churches do or what the choices are.

To remain in the mindset that says, "I’m in this place and what happens over there has nothing to do with me”, is very limiting. St. John Baptist de La Salle once told his brothers to bring culture into the heart of good Catholics. By bringing culture into the heart and mind of good Catholics, they would be serving the command of Christ “that all may be one.” John de La Salle understood that unity depended on knowledge and understanding. It depended on stepping outside of our space and looking around.

In matters of liturgy, St. Francis always said, “Simpler, simpler, simpler”. Cluny said, “Richer, richer, richer”. Both are right. That’s why they have co-existed in the same Latin Church for 800 years. Most people don’t know this; because we didn’t have the means to know it. We knew what we experienced. As I said above, today, because of the gift of the means of communication, we can know Francis and Cluny. We should know about both and appreciate their contribution to the Church.

By knowing both, we can adapt to different circumstances without distress. We can have a very elaborate and well choreographed liturgy or we can have a very simple and austere liturgy. Both can be equally holy and equally beautiful, while they are different kinds of beauty, just as the sun and the moon are both beautiful, but very different.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[SmokeRing]

Some places are too poor to afford them. They’re very expensive. They weren’t always expensive, because there were craftsmen who would make them in the local towns and villages. Those days are gone. Today, you have to buy them from companies.

When I was in the missions we used clappers. It takes a while to get used to the sound. That’s a sound that will wake you up, if you start to dose off.

Most of our conventual chapels don’t have them.

Look at some of these prices Church Supply Warehouse

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Bronze bells have historically been quite expensive. I suspect they are far more affordable today then in centuries past. The only exception might be if one did not shop and actually paid the exorbitant prices (for everything) many church goods places try to charge. One the other hand one should be able to find some decent brass bells (at a non-church supply source) for very little money.

Clappers typically take the place of sanctus bells even today at Holy Thursday Mass.

 

[SmokeRing]

Interesting. At the parish I used to attend, there was a handbell group. Sometimes they would play at Mass. Very lovely. Anyway, they had practice very Thursday night in the church, at the same time RCIA class was going on (in the meeting room). They had a lot of bells, and they had to wear gloves when using them. I remember someone saying that set cost something around 9,000 dollars. I wonder if those were the same bells they used during the consecration.

C’mon – that for a set (a dozen or more) of tuned handbells. They’re musical instruments. Quite different from sanctus bells.

 

[SmokeRing]

Correct me if I’m wrong; but I sense a bite in your post, which is not necessary. I started by saying that there was not a consistent norm on the use of the bells. I then went on to explain that the difference in usage was due to religious orders, customs, countries and resources.

Finally, I also said that those parishes that can afford them, can have them, unless there is a regulatioin why they cannot. To the best of my knowledge, I know of only one religious community that would not use them, because they view this as an unnecessary expense . . . but I don’t think they run any parishes. If you attend mass at a conventual chapel, you might not find them for the same reason.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The use of sanctus bells is defined in the GIRM.

I suspect just about any parish, even parishes in poor African countries and other impoverished places in this world could obtain a set of sanctus bells if that was something important to them.