Benedict Altar Setting

[japhy]

It is just a preference he has - until he takes steps to make into some kind of enforceable practice does it make any real difference what parishes do or don’t adopt the same practice?

Perhaps it does make a difference to some people here. If it makes no difference to you, there’s no reason to make a fuss about it in this thread. I don’t think every parish needs to adopt the arrangement, although I think the arrangement, employed properly and with corresponding catechesis, would enrich the worship of a parish and help eliminate tendencies to make the priest a “performer” and the center of attention.

My parish is no less Catholic because my pastor does not use the same table setting as the Pope.

We’re not saying anything like that. You’re over-reacting.

And I strongly protest your use of the phrase “table setting”. This is the Altar of Sacrifice for the Holy Mass on which the Lord of the Universe is made present and is offered to the Father, not your dining room table.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Here I thought thread was discussing placement of items and not which way the priest faces.

You asked a question and I answered it with the opinion of the Holy Father on the matter.

Ad Orientem worship is the law of the Church. Right now there is nothing prohibiting a priest from celebrating facing the people but the law of the Church seems to assume that the priest is facing ad orientem while not specifically prohibiting versus populum.

Vatican II never mandated that the altars be turned around or that the priest should offer the Mass versus populum (facing the people) rather than ad orientem (towards the east). In fact, the language used in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal
(GIRM) seems to suggest that, while facing the people may be permitted, facing the altar is the norm.

In the GIRM there are several places where the priest is instructed when to turn around and face the people implying that he is not facing the people at other times:

** 1975 GIRM (superseded by the 2002 GIRM)

** ** 107.** The priest returns to the center and, facing the people and extending then joining his hands, pronounces the invitation: <Pray, brothers and sisters>. After the people’s response, he says the prayer over the gifts with hands outstretched.
At the end the people make the acclamation: .

** 115.** After the prayer the priest genuflects, takes the eucharistic bread, and, holding it slightly above the paten while facing the people, says: . With the people he adds, once only: <Lord, I am not worthy to receive
you>.

** 122.** Then, standing at the altar or at the chair and facing the people, the priest says, with hands outstretched: . There may be a brief period of silence, unless this has been already observed immediately after communion. He
recites the prayer after communion, at the end of which the people make the response:
.

** 2002 GIRM (the current one)**

** 124.** …Then, facing the people and extending his hands, the priest greets the people, using one of the formulas indicated. The priest himself or some other minister may also very briefly introduce the faithful to the Mass of the day.

** 146.** Upon returning to the middle of the altar, the priest, facing the people and extending and then joining his hands, invites the people to pray, saying, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren). The people rise and make their response: Suscipiat Dominus
(May the Lord accept). Then the priest, with hands extended, says the prayer over the offerings. At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.

** 157.** When the prayer is concluded, the priest genuflects, takes the host consecrated in the same Mass, and, holding it slightly raised above the paten or above the chalice, while facing the people, says, Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God). With the people he adds, Domine, non sum dignus (Lord, I am not worthy).

This is not to say that celebrating the Mass versus populum is not permitted. But it is not intended to be the norm. Vatican II did not change that. And Pope Benedict seems to intend to restore Ad Orientem worship to the Church.

James

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Perhaps it does make a difference to some people here. If it makes no difference to you, there’s no reason to make a fuss about it in this thread. I don’t think every parish needs to adopt the arrangement, although I think the arrangement, employed properly and with corresponding catechesis, would enrich the worship of a parish and help eliminate tendencies to make the priest a “performer” and the center of attention.

We’re not saying anything like that. You’re over-reacting.

And I strongly protest your use of the phrase “table setting”. This is the Altar of Sacrifice for the Holy Mass on which the Lord of the Universe is made present and is offered to the Father, not your dining room table.

It is sad to see that trying to answer questions when an alternate view is presented is seen as ‘over-reacting’.

I am sorry you protest such as simple phrase used to describe the use of non vital items.

Setting is the term used in the title of the thread, and I borrowed table as used in: newadvent.org/cathen/01346a.htm

Altar (in Liturgy)

In the New Law the altar is the table on which the Eucharistic Sacrifice is offered.

 

[Jakub]

Eilish,

A simple yes or no and comment is all that is needed, I’ve seen others suspended or banned that had showned better tact, respect and charity than you.

Makes me wonder…

 

[japhy]

It is sad to see that trying to answer questions when an alternate view is presented is seen as ‘over-reacting’.

Eilish, you said “My parish is no less Catholic because…” No one in this thread said anything implying that! Your statement seemed (to me) very defensive, an over-reaction.

I am sorry you protest such as simple phrase used to describe the use of non vital items. Setting is the term used in the title of the thread, and I borrowed table as used in: newadvent.org/cathen/01346a.htm

What, exactly, is non-vital? The altar is necessary. At least two candles are necessary. A crucifix is necessary. If these things are omitted, one really has to ask why! The arrangement is also important; perhaps not of equal necessity, but still important enough that the Pope is doing something about it, and has written about it in the past. The altar arrangement he is employing is connected to the orientation of the Mass.

And I still think your use of “table setting” is out of line. You’re using a secular phrase for a sacred object and its preparation. The Catholic Encyclopedia uses the word “table” in describing the altar, but it does not equate the altar to just a table nor treat the words interchangeably. Technically speaking, it is the top of the altar that is the “table” (or mensa).

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Eilish, you said “My parish is no less Catholic because…” No one in this thread said anything implying that! Your statement seemed (to me) very defensive, an over-reaction.

It was in response to ‘reclaiming Catholic identity…’ - our identity is fine, thank you very much.

What, exactly, is non-vital? The altar is necessary. At least two candles are necessary. A crucifix is necessary. If these things are omitted, one really has to ask why! The arrangement is also important; perhaps not of equal necessity, but still important enough that the Pope is doing something about it, and has written about it in the past. The altar arrangement he is employing is connected to the orientation of the Mass.

And I still think your use of “table setting” is out of line. You’re using a secular phrase for a sacred object and its preparation. The Catholic Encyclopedia uses the word “table” in describing the altar, but it does not equate the altar to just a table nor treat the words interchangeably. Technically speaking, it is the top of the altar that is the “table” (or mensa).

Please don’t over analyze the word choice. TIA.

So back to the thread - the items are not vital in terms of the thread - especially if there have always been candles and a crucifix present.

 

[blackrobe]

I am always amazed for those who believe architecture is more important than the liturgy.

Architecture and design are part of the liturgy.

JSA+

 

[japhy]

So back to the thread - the items are not vital in terms of the thread - especially if there have always been candles and a crucifix present.

Different placements of the candles and crucifix can have different effects. I’d say a crucifix on the altar has a different effect than a crucifix off to the side and behind the altar. (In my parish, the crucifix near the altar is immensely dwarfed by the enormous “resurrectrix” on the wall behind the altar.)

So, this thread is about whether or not your parish has adopted this particular altar arrangement.

 

[Brendan]

We’ve had that type of setting ( 6 candles and an altar crucifix) for years.

 

[Brendan]

No, and no plans to do it. That setup would not fit the building design, it would stand out like a sore thumb.

Ah yes, how terrible it would be if people noticed a crucifix in a church, especially one that the priest happened to be looking at when he said Mass

 

[CradleCath]

We’ve had that type of setting ( 6 candles and an altar crucifix) for years.

We are now blessed to be part of a parish in which the Church has never been gutted, the main altar is still there as is the Communion Rail, so the Crucifix is still above the main altar &, of course, the candles are there. As you can see if you click on my link, it’s a small & not particularly wealthy Church…but, it’s the only one in the city that is debt-free. The Holy Spirit has given much wisdom to our pastor.

bp3.blogger.com/_46HciPiKfB8/Rz9DuyMfDVI/AAAAAAAAABs/eQoHpOp4ikA/s1600-h/100_3083.jpg

Perhaps some of you wonder why this little parish makes me so happy. Here’s just a hint of some of the abuses I’ve been through. For a dozen years, at my previous parish, for Holy Thursday, the reenactment of Our Lord’s last supper, the “liturgy committee” decided on homemade altar bread.

This isn’t an issue when it’t made of the approved recipe, but the first year it was “tasteless”, so somoene got the bright idea to add a little honey to the mix.

So for 12 years, on Holy Thursday, when we were supposed to receive our Lord and Savior, we got a “cookie” served out of a basket lined with a linen napkin like an Italian restaurant.

 

[CradleCath]

**
So back to the thread - **

Do you always respond like this, when you’ve been caught in a ‘mistake’?

 

[James0235]

Here I thought thread was discussing placement of items and not which way the priest faces.

When discussing the “Benedictine” altar arrangement it is not possible to completely separate the discussion from ad orientem worship. According to the Holy Father ad orientem worship is the ideal. The Benedictine altar arrangement is a stand in for it in parishes where the priest facing God in worship is not possible.

James

 

[muffinmojo]

[Edited]

I wish my parish would do this- I’ve seen the altar crucifix in storage, and the priest is very traditional. For special holidays, Easter, the visit of the bishop(yes there were seven then), he puts out the six candles, but he seems to really LOVE making a division between ‘Low’ and ‘High’ Mass- no incense, only three severs during ordinary time, and so on, but on holidays, incense, 12 severs in red cassocks, and so on. Sigh…It’d be so nice to see the benedictine arrangement, or even better, ad orientem worship. I don’t know how to ask for this though, as I am a very new Catholic and parish member, plus I’ve never actually talked to the priest except for a few partial sentences and single words here and there.