Benedict and Harry Potter

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Writer said:
Right… I have problems with the series, too, but the bottom line is that there are elements of Christian imagery within these tales–white stag, etc–and it is fiction, folks. I worry about where these kind of protestations will lead… Are the Chronicles of Narnia or Lord of the Rings the next books to be condemned or censored? Just makes me nervous… My daughter’s love for reading was perhaps sparked by the Harry Potter series.
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Well, the Christian allegories in the Chronicles of Narnia are a bit too staggering to simply ignore and chalk up to “just another book on magic”

As for elements of Christianity in Harry Potter, I’m curious as to where?
 
TimOliv said:
Well, the Christian allegories in the Chronicles of Narnia are a bit too staggering to simply ignore and chalk up to “just another book on magic”

As for elements of Christianity in Harry Potter, I’m curious as to where?
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I dont really see them HOWEVER one can have a fascinating discussion on all the Catholic allegories in LTR. Elven Bread for instance.
 
estesbob said:
I dont really see them HOWEVER one can have a fascinating discussion on all the Catholic allegories in LTR. Elven Bread for instance.
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Alright, Bob, let me help you out:

Let’s just look at the character of Aslan. The following is true of him:
  1. He’s the son of a distant king
  2. He was present when the ancient laws governing Narnia were written
  3. He sacrifices himself for the sake of someone who wronged him
  4. During that sacrifice, he is sheared of his mane
  5. His sacrifice rightly atones for the wrong done
  6. He comes back from the dead
  7. He leaves a man named Peter in charge when he leaves
  8. He promises to come back someday
Now, let’s examine the character of Jesus. Shall we consider the truth of the following:
  1. He’s the Son of God
  2. He was present at the creation of the universe
  3. He sacrificed himself for the sake of humanity, which wronged him
  4. During that sacrifice, he was stripped of his garmnets
  5. His sacrifice rightly atones for the sins of man kind
  6. He came back from the dead
  7. He left a man named Peter in charge when He left
  8. He promised to come back someday
Perhaps that can get the ball rolling with parallels between Narnia and Christianity.
 
PopePaddy said:
Alright, Bob, let me help you out:

Let’s just look at the character of Aslan. The following is true of him:
  1. He’s the son of a distant king
  2. He was present when the ancient laws governing Narnia were written
  3. He sacrifices himself for the sake of someone who wronged him
  4. During that sacrifice, he is sheared of his mane
  5. His sacrifice rightly atones for the wrong done
  6. He comes back from the dead
  7. He leaves a man named Peter in charge when he leaves
  8. He promises to come back someday
Now, let’s examine the character of Jesus. Shall we consider the truth of the following:
  1. He’s the Son of God
  2. He was present at the creation of the universe
  3. He sacrificed himself for the sake of humanity, which wronged him
  4. During that sacrifice, he was stripped of his garmnets
  5. His sacrifice rightly atones for the sins of man kind
  6. He came back from the dead
  7. He left a man named Peter in charge when He left
  8. He promised to come back someday
Perhaps that can get the ball rolling with parallels between Narnia and Christianity.
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Paddy:

I was talking about Harry Potter. Narnia was written specifically to tell the story of Jesus.
 
I find it so interesting that Narnia and Middle-Earth dwellers are so ready to condemn Harry Potter.
Besides, I know some people who were children and watched Thundercats, which also contains magic in it. AFAIK, they’re all still Christians!
 
estesbob said:
Paddy:

I was talking about Harry Potter. Narnia was written specifically to tell the story of Jesus.
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Okay. Sorry to have misunderstood you. I found it hard to believe that something like that could have flown over anyone’s head. 😃
 
rocklobster said:
I find it so interesting that Narnia and Middle-Earth dwellers are so ready to condemn Harry Potter.
Besides, I know some people who were children and watched Thundercats, which also contains magic in it. AFAIK, they’re all still Christians!
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To whom, exactly, are you referring? I do not believe I have said anything tantamount to a condemnation of Harry Potter, and, certainly, if my words have been interpreted to mean that those who do read HP books are not Christian, I have been misinterpreted.

I suppose there are some people posting in this thread who walk that fine line, but I don’t think they really manage to cross it. Few of us really believe that Harry Potter de-Christianizes. Some of us may think that it corrupts, or that it has the potential to corrupt (as I think), but not that it entirely and instantly makes someone no longer a Christian.
 
rocklobster said:
I find it so interesting that Narnia and Middle-Earth dwellers are so ready to condemn Harry Potter.
Besides, I know some people who were children and watched Thundercats, which also contains magic in it. AFAIK, they’re all still Christians!
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I don’t think anyone here ever claimed that there was a magical vortex that sucked in the souls of Christian Children to feast upon. However, your’s is a mentality that is shared by many. It is the school of thought whereby, “Well I used to watch Bewitched, and I don’t worship the devil,” however, the fact remains that there is a huge difference between Thundercats, Bewitched and things like Harry Potter. Thundercats. None of us are cats, the fiction level is high enough to distinguish between reality and fiction. Harry Potter presents, as the primary focus, magic. It presents the abilities of three children using magic and sorcery. Three children. They are kids who like just like the children who are reading the books.

Narnia tells the story of Jesus through (very transparent) allegory.

No one said that Harry Potter will steal your soul. What was presented is that the present craze over Harry Potter is most definitely an “easy-in” for Wiccan or Pagan Practices which, whether some of you “enlightened” folks want to admit or not, IS becoming a problem these days.

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_45_15/ai_58050620

csufresno.edu/Collegian/archive/2006/04/19/features/wicca.shtml
 
findarticles.com/p/articl…15/ai_58050620

Yikes!

What bothers me here is the number of Catholics that have been duped. My son attended a high school / college discernment camp over the summer and was told about the “good Catholic wiccans” at another parish. :eek: He debated all weekend.

BTW: The boy who told of the “good Catholic wiccans” was also into Harry Potter and it’s defense.

U
 
CathCentrist said:
That doesnt mean HP is bad in my eyes
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No one said it is bad. The issue isn’t whether the book is good or bad. The whole point of the thread is do we agree with the Vatican opposing the book. Yes, I support the Vatican’s move. While the book may be very well written, the focus of it being in witchcraft makes the book one which should not be put on the “Developing Young Catholic’s Reading List”
 
"IF a little girl learns that dragons and snakes are “good misunderstood” creatures and have played at being a mother to a baby dragon what will she make of the statutes of the Blessed Virgin standing on the serpent the devil."

In the HP books, snakes are not good, they are the symbol of Slytherin house, which is for the baddies. And Voldemort has a snake that is sort of like a familiar. His sign --the dark mark – is a snake with a skull. Dragons are not cute, they are dangerous.

Harry is an orphan, who his parents died to save his life, and his mother’s love saved him from the curse of the evil one. It left a mark on him,a scar, the mark where a curse bounced off, as it were, which is like baptism, where your parent’s love marks you and saves you from the evil one.

His scar is symbolic of faith.

In the stories he has choices, as we have choices in life. He usually choses the good, although he doesn’t always act perfectly, even as none of us can.

The source of his magic is rebirth (born again/reserection) and holiness, viz what I said earlier about his wand.

You guys need to read these books and study them. It is all there and way way more. It is no more evil and occult than the Narnia books, it is just more subtle in its message.

Even were you to disagree with me, who can respect your opinion when you haven’t read the books? You should be embarrassed to criticize when you are so ignorant of the topic.
Seriously.
 
As a side note, I’ve just been through the so far released news for book 7, and I’m fairly sure the resultant wave of anticipation that will probably not abate for days as absolutely nothing to do with what any political or religious figure thinks, and at least very little to do with my apparent satanic leanings (these being assumed as leanings I possess because I read the books).

In fact, I can explain the actual reason in four words: I’m a titanic geek.

Really is that simple.
 
shirleytowers said:
Who can respect your opinion when you haven’t read the books?
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It’s also as simple as that. People who don’t know what they are talking about and get all their info from biased, second-hand sources can yelp all they want, but I don’t listen.
 
Before we all start burning effigies here, let me just say this.

Will reading Harry Potter suck your soul via vortex into hell?

I highly doubt that.

However, I think a very large chunk of the problem (and why the church opposes the Harry Potter series) is in how kids are presented this information.

So your kid read Harry Potter and still identifies as Catholic years later. This isn’t surprising. Because your folks drew a line in the sand for them saying “Reality on this side, fantasy on that side” but ALSO, “This is your faith, they aren’t Greek Myths meant to entertain, this is Catholicism”

But there are folks out there who don’t teach their children about the faith (they rely exclusively on CCD for that). Now you have a kid receiving various (name removed by moderator)uts. A book (like all fiction books) written as though the fictional story and characters were real (I do not know of any work of fiction which mentions in the storyline that it is fiction, afterall) is telling them of a world of wizards, magic and things like that, while once a week they sit in a classroom just like the ones at school and listen to a teacher tell them of Heaven, Hell, Life Everlasting, Virgin Births, Miracles, Seas Parting, Serpents being cast out and the like. Their parents (name removed by moderator)ut ends the moment they buy the books, pay for the movie, or drop them off at CCD. Dumping a kid at the door of the local church isn’t raising a child in the faith.

So now you have a kid whose family identifies “Church” as something you go to just once a week (sometimes) and Jesus and Mary as being restricted to a CCD Classroom, while every single day they are reading their Harry Potter.

Now that I have established I am not opposed to the books in and of themselves, let me simply say that I agree with the Vatican opposing these books. Why? Because there are many books that a child can read that will help them grow in faith. The Vatican is not Oprah’s Book Club, they do not recommend whichever book seems popular, especially when it involves elements that, were they to become too deeply rooted in a child (particularly ones who are not being educated properly or being nurtured in their faith) could lead them away from the church.

Harry Potter = Evil? No
Harry Potter + Poor Education + Poor Example = Bad? Yes
Vatican? Good
 
TimOliv said:
Well, the Christian allegories in the Chronicles of Narnia are a bit too staggering to simply ignore and chalk up to “just another book on magic”

As for elements of Christianity in Harry Potter, I’m curious as to where?
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Sorry for the late response… A few years ago, I sat in a lecture at a university in Seattle where a Christian writer discussed all of the Christian imagery in this book. I found it mildly interesting, but I didn’t make any great effort to save the information she gave–nor her name. I don’t want to be a defender of the Harry Potter books, but I just don’t think we should be too hasty in our condemnation of them.
 
I was fortunate enough to discover a marvelous podcast series - “The Secrets of Harry Potter” by Father Roderick Vanhogen - at the time I was reading “Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince”.

Episode 3 is very apropos to this discussion thread.
Episode description:
‘Thu, July 14th, 2005 - Vatican Radio clears up the confusion about Pope Benedict’s alleged condemnation of the Harry Potter series! Listen to a special podcast in which a Vatican official says that there’s nothing wrong with Harry Potter.’
Episode link:
catholicinsider.com/podcasts/SHP-02.mp3
Series link:
sqpn.com/scripts/harrypotter.php

Father Roderick addresses the more recent comments made by the Vatican Exorcist during his Daily Breakfast Podcasts, most recently during the episode for September 8th
libsyn.com/media/dailybreakfast/DB-160.mp3

In "The Secrets of Harry Potter” podcasts, Father Roderick discusses the various religious themes and symbols used by JK Rowling in the Harry Potter books.

Fr. Roderick VonHogen is a Dutch priest (Roman Catholic) from the Archdiocese of Utrecht. He works in four parishes in the city of Amersfoort. He regularly spends time in Rome including 2 years at the The Pontifical Gregorian University studying social communications.

Go with Love, Go with God!
 
TimOliv said:
Well, the Christian allegories in the Chronicles of Narnia are a bit too staggering to simply ignore and chalk up to “just another book on magic”

As for elements of Christianity in Harry Potter, I’m curious as to where?
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Here’s a link that may help. It focuses on the second book Chamber of Secrets. Its pretty long but you can page down to the heading 'Chamber as a morality play" (almost to the end) and that should give you a pretty good idea.

chamber of secrets

There are more articles by John Granger at hogwartsprofessor.com.
 
Its a work of fiction…geez louise you all…

“Snap out of it!”

I watched every episode of Dark Shadows in the late 60’s early 70’s. Never missed it. I liked it so much that at the age of 12, I said that if I had a daughter I would name her “Sarah”, after the little girl who lived in the doll house. Yep, did that. She is 21 now.

I read Edgar Allen Poe as a teen. My favorite movie in high school, was Carrie.

Then I grew up. We all do.

I have seen Harry Potter…and thought it was cute. When the movies came out on DVD, my son rented it…we watched it…yeah…whatever.

If you don’t like it, don’t read it.
 
Shirleytowers said: Who can respect your opinion when you haven’t read the books?

to which liberalsaved responded:
Liberalsaved said:
It’s also as simple as that. People who don’t know what they are talking about and get all their info from biased, second-hand sources can yelp all they want, but I don’t listen.
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I think that’s a very flippant way to disregard what’s been posted on this forum by many concerned Catholics.

I especially appreciated the posts by Bones IV.

Liberalsaved, did you read what was posted? And about what was found within HP that twisted Catholic belief?

Shirleytowers, saying I or anyone else have to read HP to have an opinion about them is wrong. That’s like saying that I have to practice promiscuity to see if it’s bad for my marriage, or that my children should experiment with drugs or alcohol to find the evil in it. After all, not every kid who tries drugs or alcohol grows up to become a druggie or an alcoholic, right?

Anyone can practice prudence. Mine comes from understand and reading something else: the Catholic Catechism. I’ll repeat what someone else posted here.

*Paragraph 2117

All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity*.

Have either one of you read this in your Catechism? What’s your response and justification for reading Harry Potter other than “I like it.”?

I don’t see how anyone can read this paragraph and think that* just reading about it* is permissible.

I have to assume you don’t have the grace to discern the evil in this book, and that maybe you’re a cafeteria catholic who chooses what’s “right for me.”

Maybe you could appeal to logic: the woman Rowling is an effective storyteller. For any writer to be an effective storyteller, they have to research their material to make their story believable and authentic. Any clues as to what she researched and incorporated into her books to draw you into her story?

Dump the books, read the Catechism and any other Catholic lit if you’re interested in the progression of your soul. Do the same for your children.

And for anyone who says, “They made my kid read,” I’d like to know how many books on saints your children have read. It should be more than 10, if they’re able to pick up one of those monster HP books.

What about the Catholic Catechism? Have they gotten started on that?

Begin with paragraph 2117…

SC
 
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