Benedict blames Vatican II ??

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In the US before Vatican II candidates were asked/screened regarding homosexuality/lesbianism…Check

After Vatican II the Church had a don’t ask, don’t tell, (suede) policy…Check

This was meant to bring the Church to a more open view of normal and updated society. And show the Church as accepting of people from all walks of life…Check
Not being familiar with Church policy during the first half of the 20th Century, I would ask that you explain or provide references for those statements. What would lesbian tendencies have to do with the priesthood? And if there was a policy change, did it occur BECAUSE of Vatican II or was it coincidental? And any screening that occured was likely ineffective, since there are records of abuse and pedophilia in the 50’s and even earlier (the Irish report indicates evidence going back to the 30’s). Also, the emphasis on homosexual priests disregards heterosexual priests who preyed on girls or who had relationships with women. Controlling for sexual orientation does not totally eliminate the problem. The document you quoted talks about “deep seated tendencies”, which can be found in any sexual orientation. Recent stories about politicians and sports personalities are examples of that.

My concern is that Benedict should be facing the issue squarely, rather than trying to deflect scrutiny or find spurious explanations. Others have said the same in this thread. The attempts by the Church to reduce the damage by refusing to face reality just makes it worse, as it appears to indicate there is a lot more being hidden. The way it is being handled, we are likely to see one or two headlines per week for the next few months as more revelations and accusations occur.

Buckle up; it will be a bumpy ride.
 
Not being familiar with Church policy during the first half of the 20th Century, I would ask that you explain or provide references for those statements. What would lesbian tendencies have to do with the priesthood? And if there was a policy change, did it occur BECAUSE of Vatican II or was it coincidental? And any screening that occured was likely ineffective, since there are records of abuse and pedophilia in the 50’s and even earlier (the Irish report indicates evidence going back to the 30’s). Also, the emphasis on homosexual priests disregards heterosexual priests who preyed on girls or who had relationships with women. Controlling for sexual orientation does not totally eliminate the problem. The document you quoted talks about “deep seated tendencies”, which can be found in any sexual orientation. Recent stories about politicians and sports personalities are examples of that.

My concern is that Benedict should be facing the issue squarely, rather than trying to deflect scrutiny or find spurious explanations. Others have said the same in this thread. The attempts by the Church to reduce the damage by refusing to face reality just makes it worse, as it appears to indicate there is a lot more being hidden. The way it is being handled, we are likely to see one or two headlines per week for the next few months as more revelations and accusations occur.

Buckle up; it will be a bumpy ride.
The Pope is facing it square on. 80 - 83% of the sexual assaults where on adolescent boys post pubescent meaning they were homosexual assaults. If you do everything possible to keep those with homosexual tendencies away from the near occasion of sin it should significantly reduce the frequency of occurrence.

Check this:

PUSH FOR CELIBACY IMPLIES GAY GUILT
March 23, 2010

Catholic League president Bill Donohue addresses the spate of articles on priestly celibacy:

Reports in Ireland and Germany of decades-old cases of priestly sexual abuse have triggered an array of articles, surveys and talk-show discussions on the need for the Catholic Church to end the celibacy requirement. The implication, of course, is that more heterosexuals, and less homosexuals, would therefore be drawn to the priesthood, thus alleviating the problem.

The reasoning is sound: as we have seen from several studies—including the one just released by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops—80 percent of the victims are male. Just as important, the majority of the victims are post-pubescent. In other words, we are talking about homosexuality, not pedophilia.

Those who fancy themselves progressive would never, of course, say there is a homosexual link to priestly sexual abuse. But they know it to be true in their heart of hearts. For example, no one seriously believes that pedophiles would be inclined to marry if celibacy were lifted—they are not interested in adults. But surely homosexuals would find the seminaries and parishes less attractive if most of the men were married.

So as not to be misunderstood, it is nonsense to say that homosexuality causes sexual abuse. Moreover, it is both untrue, and unfair, to say that most gay priests are molesters. They are not. But it is also true that most of the molesters are gay. Is this not the unstated predicate of progressives pushing for an end to celibacy? Why else recommend doing away with it?

In short, the only difference between most progressives and most conservatives on this issue is that the latter are not afraid to identify the elephant in the room.
 
I disagree with you. If you look at what is going on all over the world in all manner of institutions, you see that the press has pretty well tried to make the Catholic Church the scapegoat for all this scandal.

Loos of respect…Frankly, I respect him more for the way he’s dealing with it all and it in no way affects my respect for and love for the Catholic Church.

I have however lost virtually all respect for …
  • The yellow journalist press (TV, radio, print, and internet) all over the world.
  • The Anti-Catholic bashers, regardless of who they are, who have jumped on this to vilify our most holy faith, while lacking the integrity to apply the same scrutiny to the n-C cases of same (which equal and are more current than those coming to light in our own communities) as well as and especially in the educational systems right here in the U.S.
His Holiness in no way blamed Vatican II. He does, and right so, point out that the misinterpretation (Read: “Spirit of Vatican II”) of that council was one of a series of factors that has allowed this and many other problems to come about.

I wouldn’t misinterpret what you have quoted above. What is said speaks for itself, no more and no less.
But it seems like such a minor point, and doesn’t address the problem or its solutions, that it would have been better if Benedict had left the reference to Vatican II out. It seems like a very flimsy excuse for something that was clearly happening for many years prior to that council.

As to the press, why shouldn’t they report it? They aren’t making the news, they are providing information. And if you look at the various media, the mainstream sources (newspapers, news mags and TV) are not going into great depth (however, that seems to be changing as the new and shocking revelations occur and as it gets closer to the “top”). Most of the details and in depth reporting is found in the electronic media, including many Catholic websites!

There may be some segments of the media that are pouncing on this to attack the Church, but that will occur in any case. I haven’t noticed any obvious tendency in the mainstream media to attack anyone. They are reporting what is being revealed by others (including Catholic sources) and they are asking some of the questions that many others are asking. And the “scapegoat” line does not compute, since it is the one who is accused that looks for a scapegoat, not the one reporting the crime.

For those of you who were around in the 70’s, this whole thing reminds me a lot of how the Nixon gang operated in attacking the media and looking for “enemies”, rather than facing up to reality.

As Pogo wisely said before that, and as Benedict with his intelligence and wisdom should realize, “the enemy is us.”
 
The Pope is facing it square on. 80 - 83% of the sexual assaults where on adolescent boys post pubescent meaning they were homosexual assaults. If you do everything possible to keep those with homosexual tendencies away from the near occasion of sin it should significantly reduce the frequency of occurrence.
I don’t have the same understanding of geometry as you. It is a strange looking “square”. It looks more like a maze to me, with Benedict (and other Bishops) stuck in the middle of it trying to get out.

However, I agree with your latter point. I only wish someone in authority had thought the same way 50 or 60 years ago. As I am sure the many victims wish as well.
 
I disagree with you. If you look at what is going on all over the world in all manner of institutions, you see that the press has pretty well tried to make the Catholic Church the scapegoat for all this scandal.

Loos of respect…Frankly, I respect him more for the way he’s dealing with it all and it in no way affects my respect for and love for the Catholic Church.

I have however lost virtually all respect for …
  • The yellow journalist press (TV, radio, print, and internet) all over the world.
  • The Anti-Catholic bashers, regardless of who they are, who have jumped on this to vilify our most holy faith, while lacking the integrity to apply the same scrutiny to the n-C cases of same (which equal and are more current than those coming to light in our own communities) as well as and especially in the educational systems right here in the U.S.
His Holiness in no way blamed Vatican II. He does, and right so, point out that the misinterpretation (Read: “Spirit of Vatican II”) of that council was one of a series of factors that has allowed this and many other problems to come about.

I wouldn’t misinterpret what you have quoted above. What is said speaks for itself, no more and no less.
👍👍

the world is coming against the holy father because of what the holy father is doing to protect the Faith.
 
I disagree with you. If you look at what is going on all over the world in all manner of institutions, you see that the press has pretty well tried to make the Catholic Church the scapegoat for all this scandal.

Loos of respect…Frankly, I respect him more for the way he’s dealing with it all and it in no way affects my respect for and love for the Catholic Church.

I have however lost virtually all respect for …
  • The yellow journalist press (TV, radio, print, and internet) all over the world.
  • The Anti-Catholic bashers, regardless of who they are, who have jumped on this to vilify our most holy faith, while lacking the integrity to apply the same scrutiny to the n-C cases of same (which equal and are more current than those coming to light in our own communities) as well as and especially in the educational systems right here in the U.S.
His Holiness in no way blamed Vatican II. He does, and right so, point out that the misinterpretation (Read: “Spirit of Vatican II”) of that council was one of a series of factors that has allowed this and many other problems to come about.

I wouldn’t misinterpret what you have quoted above. What is said speaks for itself, no more and no less.
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
I just read the Pope’s letter to the Church of Ireland. I also read the 30 page Executive Summary of the Irish Commission that investigated the conditions and abuses in Catholic run children’s institutions, which was published almost a year ago. Warning: One needs a strong stomach (and perhaps a shot of Irish Whiskey) to get through it.

There was one paragraph in Benedict’s letter that somewhat surprised and befuddled me. Here is what he says:

To me it sounds like the Pope is blaming Vatican II, or at least how the documents were interpreted, as a major contributor to the problem! Perhaps I am misreading this. It doesn’t seem like VII should have had any affect on “penal approaches to canonically irregular situations.” Rather, I would have thought that the attitude of openness in VII would have encouraged priests, religious and even the laity to take more definitive action, both within the church and in the secular legal system.

And when one reads that evidence of sexual abuse and coverups go back to the 1930’s, with written reports of individual occurrences filed in Rome starting at least in the 1950’s, blaming it on the actions or non-actions of those responsible within the Church during the 1970’s and 1980’s, and basing it on following the spirit of VII, seems like quite a stretch. No one in a position of responsibility in the last 30-40 years seems to want to admit that the Church failed, totally and continuously; that their greatest concern was to protect the instititutional church, with little thought for the victims, whether past or future.

And then to try to place some of the fault on Vatican II. Wow!

At least Benedict got the part about “loss of respect for the church” right. And now through continuing obtuseness and denial they are only making it worse.
No, he is saying that the way some implimented what Vatican II wanted was influenced strongly by social currents of the time instead of carefully seeking the best expression of the Gospel message.
 
The problem is, and always has been, about homosexual priests. If Vatican II is to be blamed it will only further cloud the real problem.
 
I just read the Pope’s letter to the Church of Ireland. I also read the 30 page Executive Summary of the Irish Commission that investigated the conditions and abuses in Catholic run children’s institutions, which was published almost a year ago. Warning: One needs a strong stomach (and perhaps a shot of Irish Whiskey) to get through it.

There was one paragraph in Benedict’s letter that somewhat surprised and befuddled me. Here is what he says:

To me it sounds like the Pope is blaming Vatican II, or at least how the documents were interpreted, as a major contributor to the problem! Perhaps I am misreading this. It doesn’t seem like VII should have had any affect on “penal approaches to canonically irregular situations.” Rather, I would have thought that the attitude of openness in VII would have encouraged priests, religious and even the laity to take more definitive action, both within the church and in the secular legal system.

And when one reads that evidence of sexual abuse and coverups go back to the 1930’s, with written reports of individual occurrences filed in Rome starting at least in the 1950’s, blaming it on the actions or non-actions of those responsible within the Church during the 1970’s and 1980’s, and basing it on following the spirit of VII, seems like quite a stretch. No one in a position of responsibility in the last 30-40 years seems to want to admit that the Church failed, totally and continuously; that their greatest concern was to protect the instititutional church, with little thought for the victims, whether past or future.

And then to try to place some of the fault on Vatican II. Wow!

At least Benedict got the part about “loss of respect for the church” right. And now through continuing obtuseness and denial they are only making it worse.
When I read that it sounds like he is saying that Vatican II was in many ways misinterpreted. By no way is he laying blame out on those people that were there. He was there at the Counsel after all, not as a bishop or cardinal but a theologian assisting them. Personally, I think catholics who have been with the times know that the misinterpretation of Vatican II has gotten us to the places where we are. And it is not really the Counsel he points at but the way the reform that it inspired was carried out.
 
Pope Benedict was not blaming Vatican II; he was emphasizing the mis-interpretation of Vatican II.

This is something many of us have been doing for 40 years.😦

I don’t believe that all of the priests who have scandalized the Church have been homosexuals (although I suspect that the majority were); I believe many of them to have been pedophiles.:knight2:

:highprayer:
 
Sorry, I’m not buying what anyone is trying to sell here. No one, other than a very few sick fringe people, have ever condoned raping children, and making the jump from birth control, promiscuity, divorce, homosexuality and abortion to child abuse and or rape is asinine in my opinion.
I’m not defending anyone who committed these terrible acts or anyone who helped cover them up. These abuse cases are a scandal for all Christians, not just Catholics. People who aren’t Christian will question whether or not they should become a Christian if this appears to be indicative of the leaders’ behavior. With that being said, our society, including many within the Church, are much more tolerant or approving of actions that were considered evil or sinful a few generations ago. Artificial birth control was considered sinful by all Christian churches until 1930 when the Anglican Church first approved its use. Since that time, more and more people have accepted it as a normal thing to do, not realizing what it would lead to. Next we began to see more and more marital infidelity and widespread sexual promiscuity inside and outside marriage. A large increase in the number of divorces followed. Next was the legalization of abortion where 4000 unborn children are killed every single day. Next was the widespread use of pornography which has destroyed the lives of countless people of all ages, especially women and young children. We are seeing more people accepting the homosexual lifestyle and all of its harmful effects. Now there are groups fighting for the “right” to sexual relations with children, blood relatives, etc. all in the name of “freedom”. Many so-called Christians, some of them leaders in the Catholic Church and other churches, are guilty of accepting these perverted beliefs and using their influence to further them. Yes, no one (at this time) will openly admit their support for sexually abusing others, but many have already done so in their hearts. We’re like the frog in the slowly boiling pot of water - our morals and society as a whole are slowly being destroyed. Our only hope is in the Lord Who we know will triumph in the end. .
 
No, he is saying that the way some implimented what Vatican II wanted was influenced strongly by social currents of the time instead of carefully seeking the best expression of the Gospel message.
I agree with you about what Benedict is saying here; but what does it have to do with the issues of ongoing abuse starting well before Vatican II and how those in charge from the parish level on up strove to cover up the problem and protect the abusers rather than the innocent? Taking a cheap shot at the Council seems beneath the Pope.

After reading over his letter to the Church in Ireland and the Irish Commission report, I have been reviewing the Church’s own report on the problems in Ireland and responses made to complaints against priests (which I would think could be extrapolated to the U.S. and other countries as well). They roundly chastise the behavior and action (or more correctly, inaction) of those who had the power to rectify the problems, all the way up to the Bishops. No indication in this very comprehensive report of a change in attitude or behavior following Vatican II.

What did change was that victims and their families began taking it public, by filing criminal complaints, civil suits, or going to the press. The Church could no longer keep it secret. One of the more interesting revelations in this report is that several Bishops and other administrators deliberately destroyed records of cases to “protect privacy”. Just whose “privacy” they were protecting wasn’t stated.

How is that a “best expression of the Gospel message”?
 
Maybe he is saying that canon law should have been followed.
In the years after Vatican II, many in the hierarchy dismissed doing things “by the book” --i.e., canon law, as too old school, in favor of a more “pastoral” approach. Not doing things by the book was a mistake.
 
Maybe he is saying that canon law should have been followed.
In the years after Vatican II, many in the hierarchy dismissed doing things “by the book” --i.e., canon law, as too old school, in favor of a more “pastoral” approach. Not doing things by the book was a mistake.
Perhaps. In the report on Ireland, a whole section is dedicated to reviewing canon law and other rules and “orders”. The commission noted that the leaders of the Irish Church (which included several Doctors of Canon Law) did not follow the rules of the Church at any time, whether the Canon Law of 1917, or the later revisions. In many cases, the people with authority and responsibility were not even aware of which Church laws and rules applied! Analogous to a District Attorney or Judge not knowing the laws or even where to find them. And there is the implication that some did not want to follow the law, but worked around it to protect the Church from the glare of the embarrassing truth.

Not doing things by the book WAS a mistake, but it doesn’t seem that a pastoral approach was used in its place. The testimony of victims and others involved reveal the callousness and insensitivity of the those representing the Church toward their victimized brothers and sisters in Christ. Benedict is right, that neither Canon Law nor the Gospel were much in evidence in handling these issues.
 
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