Benedict XVI Clarifies Luther's teachings on Justification

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SIA said:
What does Paul say about it (sola fide) in Romans?
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Rom 2:13-16
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

😃
 
JonNC said:
Actually, works are part of our sanctification. Good works are part of our growth in grace. I don’t think Luther ever denied judgement at the end of the age. In fact Lutherans continue to adhere to the creed, which states He will return to “judge the living and the dead”. All he said was that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone.

Jon
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So what value did he place on works? Just as a byproduct of faith? Did they have sanctifying qualities? WIll we be judged by them?
 
guanophore said:
Rom 2:13-16
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

😃
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This is not what I was referring to. I was speaking of St. Paul saying that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
And so should we all.

As I know you have read in the catechism, the Church recognizes that sin on the part of Catholics was a contributing factor to the reformation.
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**Quoting Vatican II, indeed. To read some people, one could easily suppose that the Reformation was started out of sheer bloody-mindedness by the (alone blameworthy) Reformers, & that absolutely nothing was wrong in the CC before. **​

Imagine a Christian world that was united in faith and morals.
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**It might have even greater power for evil than it does now :eek: (a smiley for shuddering would be very useful). It will never happen, thats for sure - for if ever it did, there would be a split over something else. That’s human nature 😦 **​

 
graceandglory said:
Correction. St. Paul says, “In hope we were saved.”
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Does that translate into “BY hope we are saved.”?
Hope, as many understand the meaning of the word, will not save you. It is by Faith that we are saved. Hope follows as a sure Hope caused by that saving Faith given by God, but it is not Hope that saves anyone.

Many “hope” that God will save them, if they do good works etc. to convince God of their “worthiness” to be saved. That is the method of all false religions. True Christianity is the exception. It is God’s work that saves. We work out what God first works into us. That working out is still God’s work. We can’t boast of it later.
 
guanophore said:
No, the two are not mutually exclusive. Just because a person entered a right relationship with God (justification/state of grace) that does not mean they will remain in it.

I am curious, brkn1, what do you think Paul was talking about when he allowed that he himself could become “accursed” or “disqualified”. Are these references to a saved person?
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Paul was talking about works that we do after already being saved.
We get rewards for doing those works, if they abide in Christ.
If those works are found not to abide in Christ : “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
Paul was talking about being disqualified from “receiving a reward”, not losing his eternal salvation. See: (1 Corinthians 3:9-15)
 
MarcoPolo said:
So what value did he place on works? Just as a byproduct of faith? Did they have sanctifying qualities? WIll we be judged by them?
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More than just the byproduct of faith, they are the fruits of faith. You might check my first post on this thread concerning the value we place on works.
We are, afterall, Lutherans. We claim no merit toward salvation by our works. We recognise Christ as having all the merit. In response to His gift of grace, we are obliged to do the good works He has prepared us to do. To choose otherwise is to reject Him and His command. No one with true faith can do that.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
More than just the byproduct of faith, they are the fruits of faith. You might check my first post on this thread concerning the value we place on works.
We are, afterall, Lutherans. We claim no merit toward salvation by our works. We recognise Christ as having all the merit. In response to His gift of grace, we are obliged to do the good works He has prepared us to do. To choose otherwise is to reject Him and His command. No one with true faith can do that.
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That’s how I understand Luther to believe it too. And like I said I don’t think he believed works to have sanctifying qualities or that we would be judged on them. But rather as you said, our obligatory response to His will.
 
JonNC said:
More than just the byproduct of faith, they are the fruits of faith. You might check my first post on this thread concerning the value we place on works.
We are, afterall, Lutherans. We claim no merit toward salvation by our works. We recognise Christ as having all the merit. In response to His gift of grace, we are obliged to do the good works He has prepared us to do. To choose otherwise is to reject Him and His command. No one with true faith can do that.

Jon
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There is still an element of danger of going astray in that belief. Love, or charity, does not automatically proceed from faith, as St paul explained in 1 Corinthians:
First, one violates the primacy of love:
" …faith, hope and love. And the greatest of them is love"
Second, it is possible to have faith without love:
“…and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”

In logic the above concept is tantamount to a non-sequitur.

To say that love or good works automatically proceeds from faith is not supported by St Paul at all.
 
Chancellare said:
There is still an element of danger of going astray in that belief. Love, or charity, does not automatically proceed from faith, as St paul explained in 1 Corinthians:
First, one violates the primacy of love:
" …faith, hope and love. And the greatest of them is love"
Second, it is possible to have faith without love:
“…and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”

In logic the above concept is tantamount to a non-sequitur.

To say that love or good works automatically proceeds from faith is not supported by St Paul at all.
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Whatever happened to faith without works is dead? James certainly supports the idea that works (love) must proceed from faith, for it to be a living, real faith, and not a dead faith.
Sometimes we work too hard to see our differences, and not hard enough to see our similarities. Protestants are told here that we do not place any value on works. Here I am telling you that works are necessary, that they must proceed from faith, that faith must encompass hope and charity for it to be a living faith that justifies.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Whatever happened to faith without works is dead? James certainly supports the idea that works (love) must proceed from faith, for it to be a living, real faith, and not a dead faith.
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That’s precisely the danger of assuming that good works automatically proceeds from faith. Had it been automatic, there was no need for that verse as a warning. By that warning, James tells us that there is such a thing as faith without good works because there are instances where there is danger that faith does not automatically carry good works. Therefore we still need to work it out.

As St Paul also said: “work out your salvation with fear and trembling…”
 
Chancellare said:
That’s precisely the danger of assuming that good works automatically proceeds from faith. Had it been automatic, there was no need for that verse as a warning. By that warning, James tells us that there is such a thing as faith without good works because there are instances where there is danger that faith does not automatically carry good works. Therefore we still need to work it out.

As St Paul also said: “work out your salvation with fear and trembling…”
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Yes, good works will automatically proceed from a living faith. That doesn’t mean it is easy, or that it isn’t hard work.
You’re right, James is telling us there is such a thing as faith without good works. He calls it a dead faith. Anda dead faith does not save.

Jon
 
brkn1 said:
Paul was talking about works that we do after already being saved.
We get rewards for doing those works, if they abide in Christ.
If those works are found not to abide in Christ : “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
Paul was talking about being disqualified from “receiving a reward”, not losing his eternal salvation. See: (1 Corinthians 3:9-15)
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“Do you not know that in a race the runners all compete, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. 25 Athletes exercise self-control in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one. 26 So I do not run aimlessly, nor do I box as though beating the air; 27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.” 1 Cor 9:24-27

So you don’t think the prize is eternal life?

If a person can be saved without running, why bother to run at all?

Gal 1:8-9
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!

Paul seemed to believe that even he, or an angel from God could fall away from the faith, and be accursed.

Do you think one can be “accursed” and still be saved?
 
Chancellare said:
Can you please cite where is that exactly written in Paul’s teachings?
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While I mentioned James in this manner, I would point to Paul’s lament in Romans 7:19. He, by faith, is keenly aware and recognizes that he must do good works. Of course, we are all in sin, and often fail to do what we know as the regenerate we should do. Since that is the case, we have confession and Holy Absolution. You and I, the regenerate, know by the power of the Holy Spirit, that we must live out our faith, and work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Yes, good works will automatically proceed from a living faith. That doesn’t mean it is easy, or that it isn’t hard work.
You’re right, James is telling us there is such a thing as faith without good works. He calls it a dead faith. Anda dead faith does not save.

Jon
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If it is automatic then it is easy and it doesn’t require any work.

Good works are not automatic, which is why Jesus told us we must pick up our cross and follow him.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
If it is automatic then it is easy and it doesn’t require any work.

Good works are not automatic, which is why Jesus told us we must pick up our cross and follow him.
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Ok, I already said that. So, for clarity, let me restate that the regenerate become aware of the necessity of good works through the Holy Spirit.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Ok, I already said that. So, for clarity, let me restate that the regenerate become aware of the necessity of good works through the Holy Spirit.

Jon
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I must have missed it.

Nothing there I disagree with!
 
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