benedict

[Gottle_of_Geer]

do you think that Bishop of Rome is infallible?

1. “[H]e is a man and may do sins and errors” - these are failings of the person, not errors of the holder of the office…​

1. …which is that of Pope, when infallibility is being exercised in a formal manner; for…
2. …as Bishop of Rome, the man can err; just as the man can err in preaching, or in other ways.
3. As a believer, he can be in error. He can perfectly well be a heretic.
4. …except in certain circumstances: such as when he is exercising the infallibility with which the Redeemer has endowed the Church; that he does as Pope, & not in the exercise of his other functions.

The Pope’s function in the Church is very extensive - & he is not infallible. Except in a very few things. Not because he is anything (he isn’t); but because God, Who is alone Great,

• protects the person
• who acts as Pope
• when he acts as Pope
• in certain exercises of his function in the Church
• so that those exercises of that function
• do not mislead the rest of the Church
• Can a Pope define an untruth as true ? No.
• Can he fall into heresy by (say) denying a dogma he has defined ? Of course. But not while defining it.
• Does the dogma of papal infallibility glorify the Pope ? No.
• Why not ? Because he is as much a needy wretch as any of the rest of us
• Has the dogma been used to glorify the Pope ? Probably, but that does not mean it can have no better use. It is absurd to take credit for what God, for His own Glory & Name, gives to his Church - so the Church cannot take any credit for being infallible. It is the Church’s infallibility which is exercised by the Pope; as well as by the bishops united with him, whether in an Ecumenical Council, or dispersedly throughout the world: & the infallibility of the Church is that of Christ.

This infallibility belongs to the whole Church -

• the bishops including the Pope exercise it by teaching
• the rest of us exercise it by believing
  Ultimately, we are all, whatever our part in the Church of Christ, taught by the same Christ, through His Holy Spirit. This is a consequence of our union with Him in His Body, the Church.

 

[Ilroy]

So it is the Catholic teaching that God takes away his Free Will to insure our safety?

Limited Free Will? A will incapable to choose love. Thats a scary thought.

More along the lines of, if a Pope is going to, or means to teach something errant as official on Faith or Morals, the Holy Spirit will do what is necessary to prevent this from happening up to and including the death of the Pope. God does not take away our free will.

 

[MelanieAnne]

For Ahmadhassan ~

For starters, this question does not belong in “non Catholic religions” because the subject is the leader of the Catholic Church.

Also, as a Muslim, perhaps you are not aware, so I will tell you, that Catholics have a great deal of respect, admiration, and affection for the Pope, or, as you call him, the Bishop of Rome. Many are revered. Please keep this in mind when speaking of the Pope.

I am sure you are able to understand this because I am sure that you have respect for the holy men of Islam and for Mohammed, the one you call your prophet.

 

[Verisimilitude]

do you think that Bishop of Rome is infallible?

Is Mohamet?

 

[french]

i will answer you from the bible ,i dont believe that prophets did that but ppl
Jeremiah 23:13 "Among the prophets of Samaria
I saw this repulsive thing:
They prophesied by Baal
and led my people Israel astray.

16 This is what the LORD Almighty says:
"Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the LORD.
36 But you must not mention 'the oracle of the LORD ’ again, because every man’s own word becomes his oracle and so you distort the words of the living God, the LORD Almighty, our God.

It is speaking of false prophets here.

In the Bible, some times it refers to false prophets, although it might not have the word “false.” Like in Deuteronomy 18 I think 23, it says “And if a prophet arises and speaks of some thing I have not commanded him, He shall be put to death.”

It is speaking of false prophets, and it is obvious, but some might think “Oh, so prophets can preach words other then God?” No, they can not! If they do, they are a false prophet!

need more ? i have a book about that ,as you know i`m egyptian ,so the book is in arabic but if you want it i cant translate it to you

Oh, so you are copying and pasting huh? If you can not find the info by yourself, then I do not find it worth debating you.

 

[jfallaw]

I think the poll is misleading. It doesn’t break it down to the following:

Is the Pope Benedict XVI infallible when teaching moral and faith?

To answer the question, when the Pope teachings on moral and faith issue, he is infallible.

He is not impeccable. He can sin and make mistakes.

I agree. The pope is a man just like any other, and can and does sin (hey, even the pope goes to confession). But the Spirit uses sinful man regardless. How could the Bible have been written, otherwise? The same book that says “all have sinned” was written by sinful men under the influence of the Spirit. The people who argue against infallibility by saying that the pope is a sinner must, by their own logic, claim that the Bible is not innerant, since it was written down by sinful men.

 

[jfallaw]

I think the poll is misleading. It doesn’t break it down to the following:

Is the Pope Benedict XVI infallible when teaching moral and faith?

To answer the question, when the Pope teachings on moral and faith issue, he is infallible.

He is not impeccable. He can sin and make mistakes.

I agree. The pope is a man just like any other, and can and does sin (hey, even the pope goes to confession). But the Spirit uses sinful man regardless. How could the Bible have been written, otherwise? The same book that says “all have sinned” was written by sinful men under the influence of the Spirit. The people who argue against infallibility by saying that the pope is a sinner must, by their own logic, claim that the Bible is not innerant, since it was written down by sinful men.

 

[YADA]

Why would 33 [at this time] vote in a poll that is completely irrelevent and has ‘zero’ relevancy to the office of Pope and to the Catholic teaching on infallability? A poll that misrepresents impeccability [sp?] with infalibiity?

Why even post a response?

I understand why the discussion, explaining what infalibility means but why cast the “choice”?

 

[BelFarfalla]

Why would 33 [at this time] vote in a poll that is completely irrelevent and has ‘zero’ relevancy to the office of Pope and to the Catholic teaching on infallability? A poll that misrepresents impeccability [sp?] with infalibiity?

Why even post a response?

I understand why the discussion, explaining what infalibility means but why cast the “choice”?

I did not and will not vote for exactly that reason. The poll it ‘fixed’ to produce either to two wrong responses. I’ll have nothing to do with it.

 

[YADA]

That was my thought…I was surpised to see that 30 people had actually posted a response…

 

[Tonks40]

I did not and will not vote for exactly that reason. The poll it ‘fixed’ to produce either to two wrong responses. I’ll have nothing to do with it.

Same here. Vey misleading

 

[GregoryPalamas]

i will answer you from the bible ,i dont believe that prophets did that but ppl
Jeremiah 23:13 "Among the prophets of Samaria
I saw this repulsive thing:
They prophesied by Baal
and led my people Israel astray.

16 This is what the LORD Almighty says:
"Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the LORD.
36 But you must not mention 'the oracle of the LORD ’ again, because every man’s own word becomes his oracle and so you distort the words of the living God, the LORD Almighty, our God.

need more ? i have a book about that ,as you know i`m egyptian ,so the book is in arabic but if you want it i cant translate it to you

Are you saying that this applies to Muhammad? Could be, but I never heard anyone say so.

CDL

 

[paarsurrey]

these are failings of the person, not errors of the holder of the office…

Hi
I am sorry to state that this “infallibility” of the Clergy is a common strategy in almost every religion of the world to establish their hold on the masses and deprive them of the endowment of free will, reason and logic. Whether in the official capacity or in person, in my opinion, it is the same old and wearied tactics having no roots in the OTBible.
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for Himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational/reasonable/logical questions, of course we are not discussing here pure Mathematics or Physics, and we are mostly concerned with the every day moral, Spiritual and religious issues, and a religious worthwhile book must resolve such issues, if it is truthful to its purpose. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try filling the void by putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is hence left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise, anybody’s guess.

 

[exoflare]

Hi
I am sorry to state that this “infallibility” of the Clergy is a common strategy in almost every religion of the world to establish their hold on the masses and deprive them of the endowment of free will, reason and logic. Whether in the official capacity or in person, in my opinion, it is the same old and wearied tactics having no roots in the OTBible.
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for Himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational/reasonable/logical questions, of course we are not discussing here pure Mathematics or Physics, and we are mostly concerned with the every day moral, Spiritual and religious issues, and a religious worthwhile book must resolve such issues, if it is truthful to its purpose. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try filling the void by putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is hence left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise, anybody’s guess.

WHY do you keep bringing this up?? Nobody claimed that the Bible answered every rational question… and NO other book on the face of the earth does either. Just give it a rest already!

 

[YADA]

And yet that is exactly what you claim for Muhammad and Islam, even if you do not use the term…

Muhammad received direct contact from God and/or Angel who “told” him what to say, so he could repeat it to someone who wrote it down. Then sometime later scattered pieces, dictated at various times [and not necessarily in Quranic order] were gathered by others after Muhammad and yet the message is pure, infallable, it is perfect…

Muhammad is last prophet and best and most holy ptophet. The Christians and Jews messed up the message of their prophets but the Moslems have remained true to the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran…

The Quran is the only ‘infallable’ book, the Jewish and Christian Scriptures are corrupt…

What you are saying is that Allah was not able to get his message right the first two times [picked the wrong people I guess] but that “The third time was the Charm”…

I am sorry bit I do not find your postings persuasive, nor does it appear you come here to learn about Christianity but to try to convert Christians…

 

[MelanieAnne]

Hi
I am sorry to state that this “infallibility” of the Clergy is a common strategy in almost every religion of the world to establish their hold on the masses and deprive them of the endowment of free will, reason and logic. Whether in the official capacity or in person, in my opinion, it is the same old and wearied tactics having no roots in the OTBible.
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for Himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational/reasonable/logical questions, of course we are not discussing here pure Mathematics or Physics, and we are mostly concerned with the every day moral, Spiritual and religious issues, and a religious worthwhile book must resolve such issues, if it is truthful to its purpose. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try filling the void by putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is hence left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise, anybody’s guess.

With all due respect, this is not some “clergy” forum, it is a “Catholic” forum, even tho’ this particular topic is “Catholic” because the title is the name of our Holy Father (and it is possible that at least portions of this thread should be transferred elsewhere, but that’s another subject).

At the very least you would do well to respect the fact that our Holy Father is very important to us Catholics. The person you are speaking of (the Pope) is highly revered, even if you do not share that reverence.

You have a right to post here in our forum, but you do not have a right to undermine or otherwise contest our faith. In my opinion, you have crossed the line. STOP. This is not YOUR forum. Have a care in your posts.

 

[exoflare]

You have a right to post here in our forum, but you do not have a right to undermine or otherwise contest our faith. In my opinion, you have crossed the line. STOP. This is not YOUR forum. Have a care in your posts.

If he stuck with solid reason, rather than pure emotion, I would have no problem with him contesting our faith. The problem with Muslims seems to be that most are disingenuous and aren’t really looking for a discussion.

 

[MelanieAnne]

paarsurrey, it would appear that you have some special purpose in posting here, if only because of the nature and volume of your posts. Perhaps you do not know this, so this needs to be clear ~

If you are here to attempt to convert Catholics to your religion, whatever its version of religon that may be, then you are OUT OF BOUNDS and you need to GO AWAY and seek your converts elsewhere.

This is not a forum for you to attempt to convert us to your faith. Attempting to do so is against the rules of this forum. If you do not know this, then please spend some time reviewing the rules of the forum.

At the very least, if you are going to come here and post here, give us the courtesy of respecting our Holy Father, which we hold in very high regard.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now & every shall be, world without end. Amen

 

[Mannyfit75]

Same here. Vey misleading

I didn’t vote either. It may mislead Non-Catholic Christians or Non-Christians into false ideas about the CC. I just think this thread was made out of pure ignorance.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I didn’t vote either. It may mislead Non-Catholic Christians or Non-Christians into false ideas about the CC. I just think this thread was made out of pure ignorance.

I won’t hold my breath waiting for the OP or any other Muslim here to acknowledge what we have said infallibility is and what it isn’t. If this thread is like the others I’ve seen, they will stick to their preconceived ideas and they are not going to let the overwhelming response here alter their idea of what they think this term means. It’s odd, however, it would seem they would be able to at least grasp the concept considering their view of Muhammed and the quran.