Benedictine Oblate #2

[Luigi_Daniele]

Unfortunately, I had heard a couple of things here and there about that particular Abbey as well. I don’t see having non-Catholic oblates as a marker for magesterial fidelity, as many many monasteries do have them while seeming to remain perfectly faithful. I did get an odd vibe when I read “how to be a monastic without leaving your day job…” as it seemed throughout that much more mention was made of non-Catholic oblates than Catholic ones. If you are drawing more non-Catholics than Catholics or Orthodox, that may be indicative of an issue.

Regardless, I hesitate to label any issues with orthodoxy as the reason for the decline in Blue Cloud Abbey. It would be highly unfair for me to do so when I don’t have anywhere near the whole story. I pray that all of the monks will find communities where they can live out their remaining years with dignity in the company of their brothers. I hope that as many of them as is possible can stay together.

I agree with the suggestion that young Catholics discerning a vocation to consecrated life or the priesthood seem to be drawn to places with solid reputations for orthodoxy and magesterial fidelity. This bodes very well for the next generation of priests and religious. I pray that all seminaries, orders of religious, religious congregations, and catholic universities will embrace the entire deposit of faith as handed down from the apostles. That also goes for all bishops, priests, deacons, and the lay faithful.

Peace,

Amen.

 

[iloveangels]

Dom Desiderius,

Thanks for adding to the conversation.

As Jason and I have noted repeatedly, fidelity to the Magisterium and the Holy See is critical to our association with a monastic order. I agree with many of your points, particularly those concerning the desire of today’s youth to pursue the ways of traditional Catholicism.

I attend Latin Mass every Sunday and the church pews are nearly filled. Many women are veiled. Young families with multiple children proliferate St. Andrews at the Latin Mass, a fact that gives me great optimism for the future.

I await further word from the oblates of St. Leo to determine the degree of their faithfulness to Catholic orthodoxy. The Benedictine appeal is very attractive but, above all, I must remain true to my Catholic faith. I pray for their fidelity to the Church. Should there be a problem, I will look at the secular Franciscans with whom I already have great interest. Given the number of Franciscan fraternities in any locale, I believe my odds of finding a fairly orthodox group are high. And who doesn’t embrace the spirituality of St. Francis of Assisi?

You’d be surprised. There are a huge number of misconceptions about St. Francis. He’s the most loved and probably the least understood of all the major saints.

Among Franciscans, there’s something called the “Franciscan Question” which is a critical study of the sources of the tradition. There’s a lot to it; it’s fascinating. Studying things like that doesn’t take the place of other parts of the charism, of course, but it adds tremendously to it and can clarify the way of life considerably, including ultimately making it more traditional, not less.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

You’d be surprised. There are a huge number of misconceptions about St. Francis. He’s the most loved and probably the least understood of all the major saints.

Among Franciscans, there’s something called the “Franciscan Question” which is a critical study of the sources of the tradition. There’s a lot to it; it’s fascinating. Studying things like that doesn’t take the place of other parts of the charism, of course, but it adds tremendously to it and can clarify the way of life considerably, including ultimately making it more traditional, not less.

iloveangels,

I just ordered the book “Francis of Assisi: The Man Who Found Perfect Joy”, originally released in 1962 and re-printed in 1999. The author portrays Francis as a fairly tough guy who was very faithful to Church doctrine and the Holy See, versus a little wimp who stands next to bird baths with robins in his palms. Its described as the book that influenced Archbishop Charles Chaput to become a Franciscan. Archbishop Chaput, a conservative Catholic along the lines of Timothy Cardinal Dolan (and me), described the book as follows: "[t]his is an outstanding biography that may change your life: it certainly changed mine.”

An independent Amazon reviewer summed it up well:

“This is a very readable and intriguing book about Saint Francis. It shows the great saint the way he was, with all his virtues, but also with his faults, the faults that every saint has to struggle with. In Saint Francis’ case it was a quick temper and sometimes an overly radical understanding of personal poverty. Yet Saint Francis had the openness and humility to change if Church authority or good reason asked him to, and he was never a rebel that some try to make him out to be. The author shows a true Saint Francis, a great leader, a man in love with Lady Poverty and with God. This book inspired the great Archbishop Chaput to become a Franciscan instead of a diocesan priest. Why? Probably because it is objective and real, and shows St. Francis as a man totally dedicated to the Church, a man who wanted to be poor himself to serve God fully, not because he wanted to somehow help everyone out of poverty. Certain myths, such as that St. Francis was the first animal activist, are dispelled, showing St. Francis loved nature, but fully understood that man had a right to be in charge of nature, and that nature was made for man. The Francis of this book is a tough guy, not some wimpy flower child, and that is one of the reasons it is a great book to read.”

Maybe I will get a better picture of this great saint.

David

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

iloveangels,

I just ordered the book “Francis of Assisi: The Man Who Found Perfect Joy”, originally released in 1962 and re-printed in 1999. The author portrays Francis as a fairly tough guy who was very faithful to Church doctrine and the Holy See, versus a little wimp who stands next to bird baths with robins in his palms. Its described as the book that influenced Archbishop Charles Chaput to become a Franciscan. Archbishop Chaput, a conservative Catholic along the lines of Timothy Cardinal Dolan (and me), described the book as follows: "[t]his is an outstanding biography that may change your life: it certainly changed mine.”

An independent Amazon reviewer summed it up well:

“This is a very readable and intriguing book about Saint Francis. It shows the great saint the way he was, with all his virtues, but also with his faults, the faults that every saint has to struggle with. In Saint Francis’ case it was a quick temper and sometimes an overly radical understanding of personal poverty. Yet Saint Francis had the openness and humility to change if Church authority or good reason asked him to, and he was never a rebel that some try to make him out to be. The author shows a true Saint Francis, a great leader, a man in love with Lady Poverty and with God. This book inspired the great Archbishop Chaput to become a Franciscan instead of a diocesan priest. Why? Probably because it is objective and real, and shows St. Francis as a man totally dedicated to the Church, a man who wanted to be poor himself to serve God fully, not because he wanted to somehow help everyone out of poverty. Certain myths, such as that St. Francis was the first animal activist, are dispelled, showing St. Francis loved nature, but fully understood that man had a right to be in charge of nature, and that nature was made for man. The Francis of this book is a tough guy, not some wimpy flower child, and that is one of the reasons it is a great book to read.”

Maybe I will get a better picture of this great saint.

David

David,

I am going to order this book. It sounds like exactly what I am looking for. Thank you!

-Lou

 

[Tampa_Dave]

I like the description of St. Francis as" a man totally dedicated to the Church" and “a tough guy, not some wimpy flower child”. Sounds like a solid guy.

I look forward to getting the book. I paid $12.39 plus shipping for a new copy via an Amazon seller here in Virginia.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I like the description of St. Francis as" a man totally dedicated to the Church" and “a tough guy, not some wimpy flower child”. Sounds like a solid guy.

I have read just about every book on San Francesco. Don’t know how I missed this one. It sounds awesome. Again, thanks!

 

[Tampa_Dave]

I have read just about every book on San Francesco. Don’t know how I missed this one. It sounds awesome. Again, thanks!

When I searched Amazon for St. Francis books, I read reviews on literally scads of books. You always have to screen authors for bias, educational background, etc. But when I heard that Archbishop Chaput recommended the book, I took notice.

 

[iloveangels]

When I searched Amazon for St. Francis books, I read reviews on literally scads of books. You always have to screen authors for bias, educational background, etc. But when I heard that Archbishop Chaput recommended the book, I took notice.

Dave, the key to understanding St. Francis more clearly is reading what HE actually wrote and understanding a little of the more scholarly type of stuff about the history of the order. And another key is reading a lot of accounts so as to see the different opinions and start to form a context. 800 years was a long time ago, and the charism is complex and deep.

Be very wary of books designed for the general public, even those that are usually sold as primers for Secular Franciscans. A lot of them are really very, very superficial–even a little misleading, some of them.

If you can find a copy, you might really enjoy Francis of Assisi: Writer by Marion A. Habig. Most of Habig’s works are very good. Habig was the editor for the most important reference book Franciscans have, which is called the Omnibus of Sources. This Omnibus is the reference collection of many original documents for the order. You can buy copies online.

Thaddee Matura is also good. I also haven’t yet read it, but there is a new book about St. Francis that was written by a Dominican, and published this year. It’s supposed to be very good and it’s scholarly yet readable, they tell me. It’s on my reading list.

There’s a lot more, but that’s a starter.

I don’t know how many of Br. JR’s posts you’ve had time to read and I mention that because he does a great job of pulling this out for people, but be aware that the structure of the Secular Franciscan order is different than that of the other third orders, and that will emerge as important as you read the history of the order and investigate the order further.

 

[iloveangels]

The Franciscan Institute is one of the publishing houses that releases some of the better Franciscan titles. For instance, I have here in front of me one from there called Franciscan Poverty by Malcolm D. Lambert. You said earlier that you were very interested in the topic of Franciscan poverty. This is a very Franciscan, typically historical, treatment of that topic which has been, as you might imagine, an important topic within the order.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I wish I could find a reasonably priced Omnibus (the big red one). They are all over $50

 

[iloveangels]

I wish I could find a reasonably priced Omnibus (the big red one). They are all over $50

I have an old beat up one here, the old red cloth-bound hardcover with the ribbons. It’s pretty sad-looking but for me, it’s perfect. I paid less than $50, but to do that, you really have to watch for a while.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I have an old beat up one here, the old red hardcover. I paid less than $50, but to do that, you really have to watch for a while.

That’s the one I’ve been looking for. I will keep an eye out. If you should happen to see one, please PM me, OK? I would really appreciate it.

 

[iloveangels]

That’s the one I’ve been looking for. I will keep an eye out. If you should happen to see one, please PM me, OK? I would really appreciate it.

I will, but your best bet is to watch the high volume used book sites online and just keep an eye out. Sometimes they go pretty fast when they show up.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I will, but your best bet is to watch the high volume used book sites online and just keep an eye out. Sometimes they go pretty fast when they show up.

Will do. Thanks!

 

[iloveangels]

iloveangels,

I just ordered the book “Francis of Assisi: The Man Who Found Perfect Joy”, originally released in 1962 and re-printed in 1999. The author portrays Francis as a fairly tough guy who was very faithful to Church doctrine and the Holy See, versus a little wimp who stands next to bird baths with robins in his palms. Its described as the book that influenced Archbishop Charles Chaput to become a Franciscan. Archbishop Chaput, a conservative Catholic along the lines of Timothy Cardinal Dolan (and me), described the book as follows: "[t]his is an outstanding biography that may change your life: it certainly changed mine.”

An independent Amazon reviewer summed it up well:

“This is a very readable and intriguing book about Saint Francis. It shows the great saint the way he was, with all his virtues, but also with his faults, the faults that every saint has to struggle with. In Saint Francis’ case it was a quick temper and sometimes an overly radical understanding of personal poverty. Yet Saint Francis had the openness and humility to change if Church authority or good reason asked him to, and he was never a rebel that some try to make him out to be. The author shows a true Saint Francis, a great leader, a man in love with Lady Poverty and with God. This book inspired the great Archbishop Chaput to become a Franciscan instead of a diocesan priest. Why? Probably because it is objective and real, and shows St. Francis as a man totally dedicated to the Church, a man who wanted to be poor himself to serve God fully, not because he wanted to somehow help everyone out of poverty. Certain myths, such as that St. Francis was the first animal activist, are dispelled, showing St. Francis loved nature, but fully understood that man had a right to be in charge of nature, and that nature was made for man. The Francis of this book is a tough guy, not some wimpy flower child, and that is one of the reasons it is a great book to read.”

Maybe I will get a better picture of this great saint.

David

BTW, your description above is not terribly far off although not complete. One of the interesting things about this is that the commonsense framework of the 13th century was, in some ways, very different than ours and that leads to misconceptions about the words that were used about him so we have to work to understand it, in order to understand him and the order. However, in some ways, the 13th century is somewhat like ours and that complicates matters somewhat, but in a fascinating way.

Yes, you are correct that some of the weirder things that go on are blatant additions to the charism, what sociologists would call frame extensions rather than legitimate developments of the charism or practical applications. And St. Francis, as you might well imagine, wasn’t a very trendy guy, by almost all accounts. He was perfectly capable of reading somebody the riot act for messing around.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

BTW, your description above is not terribly far off although not complete. One of the interesting things about this is that the commonsense framework of the 13th century was, in some ways, very different than ours and that leads to misconceptions about the words that were used about him so we have to work to understand it, in order to understand him and the order. However, in some ways, the 13th century is somewhat like ours and that complicates matters somewhat, but in a fascinating way.

Yes, you are correct that some of the weirder things that go on are blatant additions to the charism, what sociologists would call frame extensions rather than legitimate developments of the charism or practical applications. And St. Francis, as you might well imagine, wasn’t a very trendy guy, by almost all accounts. **He was perfectly capable of reading somebody the riot act for messing around. **

Brother Fly leaps immediately to mind

 

[Tampa_Dave]

Just got back from Eucharistic Adoration and Mass.

My 96 year-old grandmother entered the hospital today. She has to have her gall bladder removed - my brother said she just went into the operating room minutes ago. We are traveling from Virginia to Ohio tomorrow morning to be with her during recovery. She practically raised me when I was young and is perhaps the saintliest person I know on Earth. Our family from all over has prayed the Rosary many times today. If I’m erratic in visiting this thread over the next few days, you’ll know why. Please think of my grandmother Hilda in your prayers.

iloveangels,

I’m interested in poverty because I’ve been a materialistic lawyer since 1985. It wouldn’t hurt my ego to acquire a noticeable degree of humility in my life either. Thus the appeal of a saint like Francis of Assisi.

 

[jwinch2]

Just got back from Eucharistic Adoration and Mass.

My 96 year-old grandmother entered the hospital today. She has to have her gall bladder removed - my brother said she just went into the operating room minutes ago. We are traveling from Virginia to Ohio tomorrow morning to be with her during recovery. She practically raised me when I was young and is perhaps the saintliest person I know on Earth. Our family from all over has prayed the Rosary many times today. If I’m erratic in visiting this thread over the next few days, you’ll know why. Please think of my grandmother Hilda in your prayers.

I pray for a quick and full recovery for your grandmother.

iloveangels,

I’m interested in poverty because I’ve been a materialistic lawyer since 1985. It wouldn’t hurt my ego to acquire a noticeable degree of humility in my life either. Thus the appeal of a saint like Francis of Assisi.

You probably already know this, but Benedictine spirituality is very big on humility also. Here is a book on the subject which looks very good. amazon.com/Guide-Living-Truth-Benedicts-Teaching/dp/0764807390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340332207&sr=8-1&keywords=michael+casey+humility

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Just got back from Eucharistic Adoration and Mass.

My 96 year-old grandmother entered the hospital today. She has to have her gall bladder removed - my brother said she just went into the operating room minutes ago. We are traveling from Virginia to Ohio tomorrow morning to be with her during recovery. She practically raised me when I was young and is perhaps the saintliest person I know on Earth. Our family from all over has prayed the Rosary many times today. If I’m erratic in visiting this thread over the next few days, you’ll know why. Please think of my grandmother Hilda in your prayers.

iloveangels,

I’m interested in poverty because I’ve been a materialistic lawyer since 1985. It wouldn’t hurt my ego to acquire a noticeable degree of humility in my life either. Thus the appeal of a saint like Francis of Assisi.

Prayers offered.

 

[iloveangels]

Just got back from Eucharistic Adoration and Mass.

My 96 year-old grandmother entered the hospital today. She has to have her gall bladder removed - my brother said she just went into the operating room minutes ago. We are traveling from Virginia to Ohio tomorrow morning to be with her during recovery. She practically raised me when I was young and is perhaps the saintliest person I know on Earth. Our family from all over has prayed the Rosary many times today. If I’m erratic in visiting this thread over the next few days, you’ll know why. Please think of my grandmother Hilda in your prayers.

iloveangels,

I’m interested in poverty because I’ve been a materialistic lawyer since 1985. It wouldn’t hurt my ego to acquire a noticeable degree of humility in my life either. Thus the appeal of a saint like Francis of Assisi.

I understand. All of the major third orders are going to stress these things, but each will have a slightly different version of how it is understood and lived out.

You grandmother is in my prayers today. Best wishes, Dave.