Benedictine Oblate #2

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David,

If you had to list or describe your thoughts on the spiritual approach as you understand it which is represented by Opus Dei vs. the Carmelites and how it relates to you personally, how would you do so? I am curious as to your thought process related to pro-con comparisons, etc.

Peace of Christ,
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
What causes my hesitation (and I’ve told the story before), is that I decided when I was in Italy in 1990 after seeing Assisi that I wanted to be “more connected” to the Church.
After visiting Assisi, and falling in love with it (the people just radiate holiness…there are maybe 4 places on earth where I feel home…Assisi is one), I went to my family’s Marian shrine, which was run by Franciscans* and my decision was made. Involved with the Franciscans for over 10 years. Unfortunately it got so wacko (gay “masses”, lesbian “couple” running meetings) that I finally quit. I have great friends there, still. The fraternity has undergone a “house cleaning” and is now in full communion with the Church. I can honestly say that I love many of the members there.

*except that they weren’t, as you know, Franciscans–they were Benedictines (valombrosian). I ask myself again and again why the good Lord would allow me to make that “mistake” in identity, unless He was trying to tell me that the Franciscans were where I would fit best. Hence my dilemma.
Comments/thoughts/advice deeply appreciated.
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I think you pretty much know my thoughts but I my biggest suggestion is exactly what I suggested to Dave. Rather than look at the individual community or monastery, compare the spiritual approach and try to be clear and honest with yourself about your own needs, wants, and shortcomings to see which approach is going to get you and your family to Heaven. Obviously, the individual community or monastery does play a role, I am not discounting that. However, in my (probably not humble enough) opinion, the first step is to identify the spiritual approach which fits you best. Then, it is picking the community. If the approach is not the right one even if the individual community is perfect I suspect something will always be lacking. If the opposite is true, your time of interaction with the group/monastery/chapter may be frustrating but at least the rest of your life will be on the right path. The good news is that all of these choices (Franciscan, Benedictine, Carmelite, Opus Dei, Dominican, etc.) represent reliable paths to God’s kingdom. I guess the question is how easy will it be for you or I to walk those paths if they are not the best fit. We can still get there, but the journey may be harder than necessary if we are not where God wants us to be.

I could easily be off base on that, and it may not even make sense how I am relating it, as I am in no way to be confused with a vocations director ;), but that is how I tend to approach the question.

The last thing I would say is that I think one can have an over-reliance on “signs” from God. God gave us our reason and intellect and I believe he intends for us to use it in our search for Him. Obviously, there is a supernatural component to all of this as God is always present in our lives, but sometimes I think people, me included, can see things which are not really there in an attempt to submit our will to His.

Just a thought.

Peace,
 
jwinch2 said:
I think you pretty much know my thoughts but I my biggest suggestion is exactly what I suggested to Dave. Rather than look at the individual community or monastery, compare the spiritual approach and try to be clear and honest with yourself about your own needs, wants, and shortcomings to see which approach is going to get you and your family to Heaven. Obviously, the individual community or monastery does play a role, I am not discounting that. However, in my (probably not humble enough) opinion, the first step is to identify the spiritual approach which fits you best. Then, it is picking the community. If the approach is not the right one even if the individual community is perfect I suspect something will always be lacking. If the opposite is true, your time of interaction with the group/monastery/chapter may be frustrating but at least the rest of your life will be on the right path. The good news is that all of these choices (Franciscan, Benedictine, Carmelite, Opus Dei, Dominican, etc.) represent reliable paths to God’s kingdom. I guess the question is how easy will it be for you or I to walk those paths if they are not the best fit. We can still get there, but the journey may be harder than necessary if we are not where God wants us to be.
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I think you have just answered my question, sir. You are truly a blessing in my life. I have been looking at this from the just me perspective, I’m afraid. I hadn’t really considered the second part (although I have asked their (name removed by moderator)ut, obviously). In light of this, I must pray just a wee bit more about this, but I think you’ve set me on the right path. I will know tomorrow. Grazie, amico mio.🙂
I could easily be off base on that, and it may not even make sense how I am relating it, as I am in no way to be confused with a vocations director ;), but that is how I tend to approach the question.
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You underestimate your insight, sir. 🙂
The last thing I would say is that I think one can have an over-reliance on “signs” from God. God gave us our reason and intellect and I believe he intends for us to use it in our search for Him. Obviously, there is a supernatural component to all of this as God is always present in our lives, but sometimes I think people, me included, can see things which are not really there in an attempt to submit our will to His.
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Just a thought.
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Brilliant, and exactly right, of course. Again, thank you. I will post my decision tomorrow, or on Monday, at the latest 🙂

Thank you again, Jason.👍
 
Jason,

Very well-written dissertation! Initial mistakes in judgment can easily lead one to becoming an ex-member or former aspirant of a secular order. I cite your experience with the Dominicans and Luigi’s with the Franciscans. God knows I don’t wish to follow the same path. Having just hit the age fifty-five threshold and inspired by the desire for a pious life, I’m admittedly anxious to begin the formal discernment process. Time to take a breath and fully consider my options, I guess. Let me post this message while I work on your query regarding the spiritual approaches of the Carmelites versus Opus Dei.
 
Tampa_Dave said:
Tomorrow I’m expected at the Carmelite Monastery for the Sunday meeting of the OCDS community. However, I’m literally smitten by my experience with Opus Dei. My cram course on Opus Dei studies, visits to two OD Centers, and my interaction with members has so inspired me that I’m ready to take the next step with Opus Dei. I’ve prayed over this for hours. Any thoughts on whether I should cancel or simply postpone my visit to the Carmelite Monastery?
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It’d be best to go ahead and go anyway. And then you’ll still have points of comparison because this process, no matter which way you choose, is going to be a long one.
 
jwinch2 said:
Hi Dave,

To me it always comes down to whether or not the spiritual approach of a particular group resonates with you and is one that you can see yourself follow for the rest of your life. If the Carmelite path is one that seems possible to you then I suggest checking it out. While I am very deliberate as well, it is sometimes easy for me to get caught up in the process, the beauty, and seem like it is a direction that I want to go when perhaps it isn’t the best fit.

I suspect that is what happened to me with the Dominican Laity. I love the Order of Preachers and admire what they stand for greatly. I love their beautiful liturgy, their seeking the truth of God’s plan, the fact that they work for the salvation of others even at their own expense, and l love the balance they find between being active and contemplative. With the situation the world finds itself in, I believe strongly that the Order of Preachers is desperately needed and I hope that their numbers continue to grow.

Having said all of that, after months and months of study I came to suspect that the spiritual approach simply was not a good match for who I am as a person on my own journey to personal holiness. I did not see this until after I started exploring the Benedictines after coming into contact with a Monk while on vacation. The more I started looking into the spiritual path that the Benedictines offer, the more I had the feeling that the path I was following might not be the right one for me. At this point I feel as if the OSB is the direction I wish to go, but I am at the beginning stages of formation and who knows what might come up down the road.

For your own situation, I doubt that you would really have a grasp of the spiritual approach of Opus Dei, the Carmelites, etc. until you have spent a good amount of time reading and practicing what they are teaching. That is not intended to be an indictment of you, merely an observation that there is too much there to grasp in one or two sessions and a couple of months of informal study. Thankfully, there is no reason for you, me, or anyone to make a decision in the short term. Most groups of this nature have an extended formation and inquiry period for that exact reason.

Long story short, I agree with checking out the Carmelite group where you are at but suggest even more than that, particularly with your upcoming move, to focus on the spiritual path that various orders/congregations/prelatures offer to make sure it is that path you can follow on your journey to Heaven.

Peace of Christ,

Jason
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Explained very well, Jason. Excellent comment.
 
First, let me state I am no expert on Opus Dei or Carmelite studies. The Carmelites meet once monthly for prayer, meditation, and study (largely the Carmelite saints). Opus Dei members meet once monthly for an evening of recollection and a circle meeting, plus twice monthly for individual meetings with their assigned spiritual director. From what I can see, socialization is very common among Opus Dei members, inside and outside the Centers. Opus Dei offers significant opportunities for many retreats (Longlea), presentations, and lectures (Scott Hahn, for example). Opus Dei functions like a network with accessible Centers (Reston and the CIC in my immediate area). Opus Dei focuses on Church doctrine, the life and writings of St. Josemaria, and more (evidenced by the RSC library and CIC bookstore offerings I observed). Opus Dei appears to offer a more active or definitive role in one’s daily life than the secular monastic orders, largely a result of their extensive functions, activities, and organizational make-up. To be honest, the more I write the greater the appeal of Opus Dei. I know I have yet to meet with the Carmelites, but I find it hard to believe the Order can play as much of a role in my day to day life as Opus Dei. With all due respect to women, I admittedly like the Catholic male fraternity model employed by Opus Dei. Its like hanging around the locker room with guys on your baseball team, except you’re focused on spirituality, the Church, etc. I say this with no disrespect meant to women. At my first Opus Dei meeting, my interviewer and I spoke at great length over beer and a cigar. Yet the conversation stayed focused on the subject at hand. I offer this as a basic example of the point I’m trying to make.
 
I decided to attend the OCDS meeting, but I thought it started at 7:30 AM. They actually begin with the Rosary at 8:30 AM. Unfortunately, I lost at least one hour of precious sleep because of my error. So here I am posting on the CA forum at 6:15 AM on Sunday morning to pass the time …

I’ve never witnessed the Divine Office, so I will learn something new today. I’m anxious to hear Fr. Keiran Kavanaugh’s lecture as well. As I’ve stated before, he is recognized as a highly noted Carmelite scholar. Check his list of publications. The meeting will last approximately six hours: Rosary, Divine Office, Holy Mass, half-hour silent prayer, lunch, lecture and formation classes. I’ll let you know the details of my visit with the Discalced Carmelites. More importantly, I’ll compare my OCDS and Opus Dei experiences. It should be interesting since the comparison involves a prelature versus a secular monastic order. Most of the time people compare their collective experiences with Dominicans, Benedictines, Franciscans, Carmelites, etc. Apples and oranges.

I picked up “Padre Pio Under Investigation” at Barnes & Noble last night. I’m a lawyer, so I’m very interested in reading nearly century-old depositions that were taken during the Vatican investigation.

I hope everyone has a great finish to the weekend. Stay tuned …
 
I attended the OCDS community meeting today. We began with the Rosary, followed by the Divine Office, Holy Mass, and a half hour meditation period. Following a pleasant lunch, people broke for formation classes while I attended an orientation session. I left when the members gathered for a business meeting. Bottom line, the Discalced Carmelite community is made up of very nice people wholly dedicated to Our Lord and the Blessed Virgin. Our world is certainly better off for their existence.
 
Tampa_Dave said:
I attended the OCDS community meeting today. We began with the Rosary, followed by the Divine Office, Holy Mass, and a half hour meditation period. Following a pleasant lunch, people broke for formation classes while I attended an orientation session. I left when the members gathered for a business meeting. Bottom line, the Discalced Carmelite community is made up of very nice people wholly dedicated to Our Lord and the Blessed Virgin. Our world is certainly better off for their existence.
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It doesn’t sound like you are particularly enamored with what you experienced.

If you had to come up with pros and cons from a standpoint of spiritual approach, what would you say?

Peace,
 
Jason,

The Carmelites I met were wonderful people with a deep-seated spirituality. But my experience at the Carmelite Monastery merely reinforced my decision to pursue a vocation with Opus Dei. They offer evenings of recollection, circle meetings, retreats, lectures, events, and a personal spiritual adviser. Opus Dei members study Church doctrine, the writings of St. Josemaria Escriva and other Opus Dei scholars, plus the works of saints of various Orders. From what I’ve observed, there is extensive interaction among Opus Dei members outside scheduled events. Like the monastic orders, Opus Dei stresses a plan of life which includes a rigorous prayer life and attendance at daily Mass. Their spiritual beliefs, in particular the concept of divine filiation, are very inspiring for laymen seeking a sanctified life through work in the secular world. The Church is under attack today. Opus Dei members are well-suited to represent and defend our Catholic faith in the workplace on a daily basis. Opus Dei inspires me to become a better father, husband, lawyer and personal defender of the faith. I cannot deny the appeal of this dynamic prelature.

Luigi,

Are you a full-fledged aspirant to the Benedictine oblate life? Your journey has been long and difficult. I pray you find what you’re looking for.

David
 
Tampa_Dave said:
Jason,

The Carmelites I met were wonderful people with a deep-seated spirituality. But my experience at the Carmelite Monastery merely reinforced my decision to pursue a vocation with Opus Dei. They offer evenings of recollection, circle meetings, retreats, lectures, events, and a personal spiritual adviser. Opus Dei members study Church doctrine, the writings of St. Josemaria Escriva and other Opus Dei scholars, plus the works of saints of various Orders. From what I’ve observed, there is extensive interaction among Opus Dei members outside scheduled events. Like the monastic orders, Opus Dei stresses a plan of life which includes a rigorous prayer life and attendance at daily Mass. Their spiritual beliefs, in particular the concept of divine filiation, are very inspiring for laymen seeking a sanctified life through work in the secular world. The Church is under attack today. Opus Dei members are well-suited to represent and defend our Catholic faith in the workplace on a daily basis. Opus Dei inspires me to become a better father, husband, lawyer and personal defender of the faith. I cannot deny the appeal of this dynamic prelature.
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Good for you. It sounds like you are coming to a conclusion, at least for the time being.

Peace,
 
We have all pursued things we desired, often finding that our initial instincts were wrong. I accept that. With my age and experience (both personal and professional), I’m fairly confident in my decision-making process at this stage in my life. I recognize the discernment process for Opus Dei, like the secular orders, takes time to allow for errors in judgment. While I appreciate the possibility my initial instincts are wrong, I seriously doubt it. I’ve read up on Opus Dei with every spare moment I have. When I put the books down, I pray, think or talk about an Opus Dei vocation with family or very close friends. My intellect is equally involved with my heart; perhaps that’s the lawyer in me.
 
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