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Guar_Fan
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Guar Fan:
- Status
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Hildebrand
Guest
Here is a great segment of last month’s journal “First Things” by Fr. Richard John Neuhaus.
This is probably what Bill Bennett was referencing when he made those comments.
This is probably what Bill Bennett was referencing when he made those comments.
firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0508/public.html
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Guar_Fan
Guest
I am not sure where Fr Neuhaus is getting his statistics but I don’t think they are from the book Freakonomics. One of the authors of that book posted this in his blog, concerning the Bennett brouhaha:
freakonomics.com/blog.php
In general, this author, Steven D. Levitt, does not support Bennett’s contention.
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Gabriel_Gale
Guest
Guar Fan:
Guar Fan:
Guar Fan:
Guar Fan:
When George Bush is called Bull Connor by Rangel, no one asks for peace.
When Farrakhan accuses the government of blowing up the levies in New Orleans, no one asks for peace.
Strikes me as elitist. If we can’t have sophisticated discussions outside the classroom, then why do we have education?
Guar Fan:
That idea has been out there for anybody watching TV. Mr. Bennet states that the reason he used the example of blacks and crime was due to the recent dialogue about black, crime and poverty.
Guar Fan:
Actual, Mr. Bennet’s quote was stronger and more significant. Mr. Bennet argument was a “reductio ad absurdum” The argument must end in absurdity for it’s rhetorical effect. Mr. Bennet immediately highlighted the absurdity on air by stating that such a policy would be impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible.
I don’t think that anyone was waiting on Bill Bennet to justify their white supremacy. I think that it’s impossible to speak publicly and not have someone twist your words for their own purpose. Look how much the words of CHRIST are misused.
Guar Fan:
I’m glad that he respects our intelligence enough to clarify his analogy.
It sounds like you walked into the room in the middle of the conversation. Mr. Bennet was trying to illustrate the fallacy of using utilitarian arguments against abortion by demonstrating that utiltarian arguments can be used to support abortion.
In the context of the conversation, this is a non sequitur.
Last I checked, we are at peace in this country.
When George Bush is called Bull Connor by Rangel, no one asks for peace.
When Farrakhan accuses the government of blowing up the levies in New Orleans, no one asks for peace.
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Gabriel_Gale
Guest
Guar Fan:
According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion
On average, 1,452 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.
This incidence of abortion has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 Black women have had about 10 million abortions. Michael Novak had calculated “Since the number of current living Blacks (in the U.S.) is 31 million, the missing 10 million represents an enormous loss, for without abortion, America’s Black community would now number 41 million persons. It would be 35 percent larger than it is. Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member.”
http://blackgenocide.org/
Minority women constitute only about 26% of the female population (age 15-44) in the United States, but they underwent approximately 36% of the abortions.
According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion
On average, 1,452 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.
This incidence of abortion has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 Black women have had about 10 million abortions. Michael Novak had calculated “Since the number of current living Blacks (in the U.S.) is 31 million, the missing 10 million represents an enormous loss, for without abortion, America’s Black community would now number 41 million persons. It would be 35 percent larger than it is. Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member.”
http://blackgenocide.org/
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Thekla
Guest
StratusRose said:
This isn’t the first time that Bill Bennett has stuck his foot in his mouth. What he said, even inadvertently, was disrespectful to African Americans in this country. And the “it was taken out of context” argument is often used when people get caught saying something wrongheaded.
Mr. Bennett is a Catholic. It’s a simple thing to apologize and move on. It’s also the Catholic thing to do. The fact that he’s now issued a written statement with no apology shows a stubbornness and lack of simple kindness. You don’t have to intend to offend and insult people in order to do so.
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Gabriel_Gale
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Guar Fan via Levitt:
The problem is that Levitt extrapolates and assumes that the overall birthrate has been due to women who had abortion later having children. I think that there are several problems with his inference. First, given the rising age of women having children and subsequent infertility problems, I would not assume that women who have had abortions and defer childbirth have the number of children they expected. Second, overall birth rate does not consider changes in certain subpopulations. Our overall birth rate may be unchanged due to immigration and the tendency of immigrants to have higher birth rates. Our fertility rate would be below replacement level without immigration. Finally, certain subpopulations could see a decrease population, especially if that population had a disproportionately high abortion rate (ie African Americans).
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=174508
religioustolerance.org/abo_fact1.htm
I would like to add to that this…Abortion mills are strtegically located in minority, low income neighborhoods. I saw Mr. Bennet talk on Hannity too, and it appears that he is being blacklisted. I wish he would call out the facts about the abortion INDUSTRY. The fact is they are doing what he was using as an example period, in fact abortion is the number one killer of African Americans.
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Bella3502
Guest
I don’t think this Bennett owes anyone an apology… And I hope he doesn’t.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Abortion is destroying the black community
by Dave Bohon
Abortion is destroying black America. That’s the message a coalition of African-American pro-life activists took to the White House August 21st in an effort to persuade the Bush Administration that steps must be taken to stop the holocaust that since 1973 has “legally” taken the lives of over 44 million pre-born Americans — over a third of them African-American babies.
The federal Centers for Disease Control estimates that around 1,500 black babies are aborted each day in the United States — or more than 500,000 children per year out of a community that already faces some steep obstacles. Elder Brian and Rev. Denise Walker, who operate a post-abortive healing ministry, joined the group of nearly 200 pastors, church leaders, and pro-life activists for the meeting with Bush officials. They told Pro-Family News that the Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortion in the U.S. amounted to a license to commit large-scale genocide on America’s black community. “What the slave ships couldn’t do to us, what slavery itself couldn’t do to us, and what the Ku Klux Klan couldn’t do to us, abortion has accomplished,” said Denise. She speaks from experience, having suffered through three abortions herself before she and Brian became Christians — and outspokenly pro-life. The Walkers pointed out that abortion is now the leading cause of death in the African-American community. “It causes four times as many deaths among blacks as the combined total of deaths caused by cancer, heart disease, AIDS, homicide, and accidents,” explained Denise.
Brian noted that since 1973, some 14 million African-American children have been aborted. “While blacks comprise 12 percent of the nation’s population, they are the victims of 36 percent of all abortions,” he said.
The decimation of the black community through abortion has come at the hands of abortion providers like Planned Parenthood, and the destruction is in part the consequence of the vision of Planned Parenthood’s founder Margaret Sanger. Through campaigns like the “Negro Project” Sanger and her compatriots in the birth control movement of the 1920s and ’30s convinced leaders in the black community that limiting black families through birth control would enable them to pull themselves out of poverty. Explained Denise, “Back in the 1930s, as it is today, the pulpit was the base of influence in the black community. The Negro Project was designed to use black clergy to sell the idea of birth control to the rest of the African-American community. Sanger convinced black pastors that the way for the black community, which was poor and largely uneducated, to get ahead was to limit their numbers.”
Since the onset of legalized abortion in the 1970s, the stakes have been upped for the black community. “Under the guise of health-care and helping women and families, countless thousands of African-American babies are aborted each year,” said Brian. The location of the majority of the family planning “health clinics” is telling. “Seventy-eight percent of them are located in minority communities,” said Brian. “Their practices prove their mission. For abortion providers its all about business. Groups like Planned Parenthood get an inordinate amount of their funding via abortions, whether the patient herself pays, or it is subsidized by government funding. So their business plan is to locate their abortion clinics where they can have influence and grow their customer base.”
The website www.blackgenocide.org, sponsored by the New Jersey chapter of the African-American pro-life group Life, Education and Resource Network (LEARN), notes, “With one-third of all abortions performed on Black women, the abortion industry has received over $4,000,000,000 (yes, billion) from the black community.”
Denise warned that the huge numbers of abortions among black women is destroying the African-American community. “We are dying,” she said of the black community. “Our population growth is negative. We are not even replacing ourselves.” While many blacks consider the implementation of the 1965 Voting Rights Act as the final act of liberation for blacks in America, Denise pointed out that in 40 short years America’s abortion mentality has threatened that freedom, putting the African-American population at a numerical disadvantage.
by Dave Bohon
Abortion is destroying black America. That’s the message a coalition of African-American pro-life activists took to the White House August 21st in an effort to persuade the Bush Administration that steps must be taken to stop the holocaust that since 1973 has “legally” taken the lives of over 44 million pre-born Americans — over a third of them African-American babies.
The federal Centers for Disease Control estimates that around 1,500 black babies are aborted each day in the United States — or more than 500,000 children per year out of a community that already faces some steep obstacles. Elder Brian and Rev. Denise Walker, who operate a post-abortive healing ministry, joined the group of nearly 200 pastors, church leaders, and pro-life activists for the meeting with Bush officials. They told Pro-Family News that the Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortion in the U.S. amounted to a license to commit large-scale genocide on America’s black community. “What the slave ships couldn’t do to us, what slavery itself couldn’t do to us, and what the Ku Klux Klan couldn’t do to us, abortion has accomplished,” said Denise. She speaks from experience, having suffered through three abortions herself before she and Brian became Christians — and outspokenly pro-life. The Walkers pointed out that abortion is now the leading cause of death in the African-American community. “It causes four times as many deaths among blacks as the combined total of deaths caused by cancer, heart disease, AIDS, homicide, and accidents,” explained Denise.
Brian noted that since 1973, some 14 million African-American children have been aborted. “While blacks comprise 12 percent of the nation’s population, they are the victims of 36 percent of all abortions,” he said.
The decimation of the black community through abortion has come at the hands of abortion providers like Planned Parenthood, and the destruction is in part the consequence of the vision of Planned Parenthood’s founder Margaret Sanger. Through campaigns like the “Negro Project” Sanger and her compatriots in the birth control movement of the 1920s and ’30s convinced leaders in the black community that limiting black families through birth control would enable them to pull themselves out of poverty. Explained Denise, “Back in the 1930s, as it is today, the pulpit was the base of influence in the black community. The Negro Project was designed to use black clergy to sell the idea of birth control to the rest of the African-American community. Sanger convinced black pastors that the way for the black community, which was poor and largely uneducated, to get ahead was to limit their numbers.”
Since the onset of legalized abortion in the 1970s, the stakes have been upped for the black community. “Under the guise of health-care and helping women and families, countless thousands of African-American babies are aborted each year,” said Brian. The location of the majority of the family planning “health clinics” is telling. “Seventy-eight percent of them are located in minority communities,” said Brian. “Their practices prove their mission. For abortion providers its all about business. Groups like Planned Parenthood get an inordinate amount of their funding via abortions, whether the patient herself pays, or it is subsidized by government funding. So their business plan is to locate their abortion clinics where they can have influence and grow their customer base.”
The website www.blackgenocide.org, sponsored by the New Jersey chapter of the African-American pro-life group Life, Education and Resource Network (LEARN), notes, “With one-third of all abortions performed on Black women, the abortion industry has received over $4,000,000,000 (yes, billion) from the black community.”
Denise warned that the huge numbers of abortions among black women is destroying the African-American community. “We are dying,” she said of the black community. “Our population growth is negative. We are not even replacing ourselves.” While many blacks consider the implementation of the 1965 Voting Rights Act as the final act of liberation for blacks in America, Denise pointed out that in 40 short years America’s abortion mentality has threatened that freedom, putting the African-American population at a numerical disadvantage.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
The Rev. Luke Robinson, a black pastor in Frederick, Maryland who helped organize the meeting between Bush officials and the black pro-life leaders, said the focus of the meeting was to persuade the Bush Administration to help educate the American public about how abortion is destroying the black community. He said that while Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers are busily killing babies indiscriminately across the nation, their campaign has been particularly devastating to the black community. “We find that the Hispanic birthrate is about 3.2, the white birthrate is about 2.2, and the African American birthrate is 0.9,” said Robinson, “which means the Hispanic community is tripling itself, the whites are doubling themselves, and the African-American community is not even replacing itself.”
Brian Walker pointed out that the coalition that met with Bush Administration officials wasn’t looking for money or more government programs for the African-American community. “We just want Mr. Bush to use his position as president to raise this as an issue,” he said. “He has been such a staunch supporter of protecting the unborn, so he was the most natural leader to go to.”
While the group was unable to meet personally with President Bush, the Walkers said the White House officials that met with them were very receptive. “We really just let them know what the problem is, that the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons do not speak for the black community,” she said. “We requested that the president would use his position to expose the genocidal effects of abortion on African-Americans, and to champion the cause of saving black children nationwide.”
In a personal letter to President Bush, Denise said the issue for black America is not “choice but genocide.” She explained that “most people, even in the black community, have no idea that abortion is the number one killer of African-Americans in the United States. Mr. President, we are asking you to use your bully pulpit to sound the alarm and help educate the public to the devastating genocidal effects of abortion within our community….”
The Walkers said that Americans of all races and ethnicities must stand up and say “No More” to abortion. Said Denise, “Our society cannot sustain itself if we do not allow children to be born.”
Brian Walker pointed out that the coalition that met with Bush Administration officials wasn’t looking for money or more government programs for the African-American community. “We just want Mr. Bush to use his position as president to raise this as an issue,” he said. “He has been such a staunch supporter of protecting the unborn, so he was the most natural leader to go to.”
While the group was unable to meet personally with President Bush, the Walkers said the White House officials that met with them were very receptive. “We really just let them know what the problem is, that the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons do not speak for the black community,” she said. “We requested that the president would use his position to expose the genocidal effects of abortion on African-Americans, and to champion the cause of saving black children nationwide.”
In a personal letter to President Bush, Denise said the issue for black America is not “choice but genocide.” She explained that “most people, even in the black community, have no idea that abortion is the number one killer of African-Americans in the United States. Mr. President, we are asking you to use your bully pulpit to sound the alarm and help educate the public to the devastating genocidal effects of abortion within our community….”
The Walkers said that Americans of all races and ethnicities must stand up and say “No More” to abortion. Said Denise, “Our society cannot sustain itself if we do not allow children to be born.”
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Zooey
Guest
Hey, I happen to like the man. But this kind of speech–I’m not talking about the racial aspects; I can see that that part was a partisan thing.
My problem is with the idea that he was saying–in public, in the media–words that are a further desensitization of people to the very real horror of abortion.
I have no intention of apologizing for saying that there are some things that Christian people need to hold as absolutes. One of those is, that regardless of the context, you do not throw the subject of abortion around in a way that can be understood as trivializing the genocide of African Americans by the abortion industry.
This man is in the public eye as someone who has embraced the high moral ground. He needs to stand up & say “You know what folks? I made a fool of myself. I said something that I never should have said; I have no right–as a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ-- to propose, even hypothetically, that abortion is the solution for anything. It was dumb thing to say, & I’m sorry”.
I’ve made my own dumb remarks about abortion, due to my dumb opinions, before I saw a sonogram. Fortunately, I’m not in the public eye, & the whole country didn’t get to hear me.
Bill Bennett is in the public eye, and waffling around about “context” is not enough. He needs to act like the man I have believed him to be, and apologize,-- just as publicly as he made that remark.
Anyone who doesn’t understand why I say this, please read Lisa’a posts, & follow her links. This is where I am coming from.
Those who name the Name of Jesus Christ need to remember that "“unto whomsoever much is given, of him, much shall be required”. (Luke 12:48b).
I am not a Democrat, not a Republican. I don’t care about William Bennett’s political views. I only care about the 4000 unborn babies who die every day in this country.
The man was wrong, no matter what he meant to say, no matter what he meant by what he did say.
I stand by my statement.
God bless.
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mjdonnelly
Guest
People need to read his whole statement before putting their foot in their mouth.
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StratusRose
Guest
See post #10.
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Hildebrand
Guest
Gabriel Gale:
The problem is that Levitt extrapolates and assumes that the overall birthrate has been due to women who had abortion later having children. I think that there are several problems with his inference. First, given the rising age of women having children and subsequent infertility problems, I would not assume that women who have had abortions and defer childbirth have the number of children they expected. Second, overall birth rate does not consider changes in certain subpopulations. Our overall birth rate may be unchanged due to immigration and the tendency of immigrants to have higher birth rates. Our fertility rate would be below replacement level without immigration. Finally, certain subpopulations could see a decrease population, especially if that population had a disproportionately high abortion rate (ie African Americans).
I just started laughing when Levitt said he can, in effect, guarantee that women who had abortions would have had the same amount of children if they never had an abortion. There are so many factors that would go into it, I do not know how he can say, “When a woman gets an abortion, for the most part it is not changing the total number of children she has; rather, it is shifting the timing so those births come later in life.” Ask your mother, if she aborted you, how many children would she have? Maybe there are some mothers that will respond “I would have the same amount of children”. But to claim that would not be the exception, but the norm.
He is actually inferring that all pregnancies that end in the birth of a child are planned and/or all people determine how many children they want in life and end up with the same number. That is the only possible way his hypothesis can work out.
The problem is that Levitt extrapolates and assumes that the overall birthrate has been due to women who had abortion later having children. I think that there are several problems with his inference. First, given the rising age of women having children and subsequent infertility problems, I would not assume that women who have had abortions and defer childbirth have the number of children they expected. Second, overall birth rate does not consider changes in certain subpopulations. Our overall birth rate may be unchanged due to immigration and the tendency of immigrants to have higher birth rates. Our fertility rate would be below replacement level without immigration. Finally, certain subpopulations could see a decrease population, especially if that population had a disproportionately high abortion rate (ie African Americans).
I just started laughing when Levitt said he can, in effect, guarantee that women who had abortions would have had the same amount of children if they never had an abortion. There are so many factors that would go into it, I do not know how he can say, “When a woman gets an abortion, for the most part it is not changing the total number of children she has; rather, it is shifting the timing so those births come later in life.” Ask your mother, if she aborted you, how many children would she have? Maybe there are some mothers that will respond “I would have the same amount of children”. But to claim that would not be the exception, but the norm.
He is actually inferring that all pregnancies that end in the birth of a child are planned and/or all people determine how many children they want in life and end up with the same number. That is the only possible way his hypothesis can work out.
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Hildebrand
Guest
Gabriel Gale:
) says that all those killed children does not effect the total population of African Americans. Why? because the all mothers who had abortions, or most mothers who had abortions will have end up the same number of children that they would have had if they did not have an abortion. http://forum.sunflowers.de/images/smilies/scratch.gif
Don’t worry, Levitt (an expert on population, women, medical studies, and pregnancies -
) says that all those killed children does not effect the total population of African Americans. Why? because the all mothers who had abortions, or most mothers who had abortions will have end up the same number of children that they would have had if they did not have an abortion. http://forum.sunflowers.de/images/smilies/scratch.gif
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Hildebrand
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Guar_Fan
Guest
I am not an expert on population or any of the things you mention. Heck, I haven’t even read Freakonomics (whose sales should skyrocket after this tempest in a teapot).Don’t worry, Levitt (an expert on population, women, medical studies, and pregnancies -
But I do know that my parents, after having four children quickly after marriage, said… okay that is it. No more.
It seems to make sense that most people have children until they reach whatever number they are comfortable with. This number may be reached when they are 22 or it may be reached when they are 32. But having children early in life doesn’t mean that a person will naturally have more kids total.
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oldfogey
Guest
Mr. Bennett should not apologize, and we should pray.
I am seriously concerned that race relations in this country are going to reach a flash point. The rhetoric from people like Jackson, Rengel, and Farrakhan is as bad as was going around in the late 60’s and early 70’s. Do you remember when we dreaded the long hot summers because we feared the riots that came so often?
The United States, the great liberal democracy, cannot listen to a man’s words or debate him without a cadre of demagogues and their harpies using rhetoric and a compliant media to vilify him. How did we become this way? How did the big lie become so powerful?
I am seriously concerned that race relations in this country are going to reach a flash point. The rhetoric from people like Jackson, Rengel, and Farrakhan is as bad as was going around in the late 60’s and early 70’s. Do you remember when we dreaded the long hot summers because we feared the riots that came so often?
The United States, the great liberal democracy, cannot listen to a man’s words or debate him without a cadre of demagogues and their harpies using rhetoric and a compliant media to vilify him. How did we become this way? How did the big lie become so powerful?
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Gabriel_Gale
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Guar Fan via Levitt:
4) When a woman gets an abortion, for the most part it is not changing the total number of children she has; rather, it is shifting the timing so those births come later in life. This is an important fact to remember. One in four pregnancies ends in abortion and this has been true for 30 years in the U.S. But the impact of abortion on the overall birth rate has been quite small.
freakonomics.com/blog.php
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Hildebrand:
"2) Race is not an important part of the abortion-crime argument that John Donohue and I have made in academic papers and that Dubner and I discuss in Freakonomics. It is true that, on average, crime involvement in the U.S. is higher among blacks than whites. Importantly, however, once you control for income, the likelihood of growing up in a female-headed household, having a teenage mother, and how urban the environment is, the importance of race disappears for all crimes except homicide. (The homicide gap is partly explained by crack markets). In other words, for most crimes a white person and a black person who grow up next door to each other with similar incomes and the same family structure would be predicted to have the same crime involvement. Empirically, what matters is the fact that abortions are disproportionately used on unwanted pregnancies, and disproportionately by teenage women and single women."
Who does he think that these single women are? Out-of-wedlock births is over 60% for African Americans. Futhermore, black women have a disproportionately higher abortion rate and a lower fertility rate compared to whites since Roe V Wade.
Guar Fan via Levitt:
4) When a woman gets an abortion, for the most part it is not changing the total number of children she has; rather, it is shifting the timing so those births come later in life. This is an important fact to remember. One in four pregnancies ends in abortion and this has been true for 30 years in the U.S. But the impact of abortion on the overall birth rate has been quite small.
freakonomics.com/blog.php
**
**
I think that Levitt is disingenuous about the racial aspects of his theory. Again from his website:Don’t worry, Levitt (an expert on population, women, medical studies, and pregnancies -
"2) Race is not an important part of the abortion-crime argument that John Donohue and I have made in academic papers and that Dubner and I discuss in Freakonomics. It is true that, on average, crime involvement in the U.S. is higher among blacks than whites. Importantly, however, once you control for income, the likelihood of growing up in a female-headed household, having a teenage mother, and how urban the environment is, the importance of race disappears for all crimes except homicide. (The homicide gap is partly explained by crack markets). In other words, for most crimes a white person and a black person who grow up next door to each other with similar incomes and the same family structure would be predicted to have the same crime involvement. Empirically, what matters is the fact that abortions are disproportionately used on unwanted pregnancies, and disproportionately by teenage women and single women."
Who does he think that these single women are? Out-of-wedlock births is over 60% for African Americans. Futhermore, black women have a disproportionately higher abortion rate and a lower fertility rate compared to whites since Roe V Wade.
- Status