Besorah of yahusha

[Coolhandlukexx]

Greetings, I have been debating with a person on a public forum with mutual friends about her insulting posts. As far as I can tell she seems to be a part of some sort of sacred name, od hebrew roots type church. She seems moral on social issues, but spits a lot of hate speech towards Catholics, and other more traditional churches. I have been able to refute most of her nonsense. I am trying to better understand where she is getting her reasons for this hebrew obsession. Does anyone have any Catholic perspective on this particular “bible” she uses? Who wrote and interperted this and under what authority? The title is in my heading. Any info would be appreciated.

 

[pablope]

Greetings, I have been debating with a person on a public forum with mutual friends about her insulting posts. As far as I can tell she seems to be a part of some sort of sacred name, od hebrew roots type church. She seems moral on social issues, but spits a lot of hate speech towards Catholics, and other more traditional churches. I have been able to refute most of her nonsense. I am trying to better understand where she is getting her reasons for this hebrew obsession. Does anyone have any Catholic perspective on this particular “bible” she uses? Who wrote and interperted this and under what authority? The title is in my heading. Any info would be appreciated.

Could be a Messianic protestant…very anti-Catholic from what I have seen. If I am not mistaken…their bible is called the AENT…aramaic english NT.

 

[Coolhandlukexx]

Ok I found another “bible” translation she uses. Hebrew roots version by James Trimm. Here is an indepth study of this particular guy and cohourts. seekgod.ca/trfactor2.htm. She really runs people down for celebrating "pagan"holidays and such. She had some JW background and now this. I have been kind to her while I debate her. She has many friends that both support and deny her claims. I do know that people look up to her as she is well spoken, beautiful family, seems sucessful, and can be compelling. It is sad to me how brainwashed her and her cronies seem to be, and their negative influence on others. Most of her accusations toward the Catholics come from Chick tracts and Alberto Rivera type stuff. I have been able to show her history on those subjects and back her off. The Pope and Mary worship are the latest tgings she is harping on. I am unsure whether I should cut ties and ignore her, or keep trying to chime in and refute her to expose some of the rhetoric. Christians and Jewish people alike seem annoyed with this person and friends " religious " practices.

 

[MorningSong51]

Ok I found another “bible” translation she uses. Hebrew roots version by James Trimm. Here is an indepth study of this particular guy and cohourts. seekgod.ca/trfactor2.htm. She really runs people down for celebrating "pagan"holidays and such. She had some JW background and now this. I have been kind to her while I debate her. She has many friends that both support and deny her claims. I do know that people look up to her as she is well spoken, beautiful family, seems sucessful, and can be compelling. It is sad to me how brainwashed her and her cronies seem to be, and their negative influence on others. Most of her accusations toward the Catholics come from Chick tracts and Alberto Rivera type stuff. I have been able to show her history on those subjects and back her off. The Pope and Mary worship are the latest tgings she is harping on. I am unsure whether I should cut ties and ignore her, or keep trying to chime in and refute her to expose some of the rhetoric. Christians and Jewish people alike seem annoyed with this person and friends " religious " practices.

Hi Coolhandlukexx;

I’m really familiar with this type of on line Christian/Jewish forum because when I first started looking around I had no idea where to turn to for information and discussions about the bible and about the old testament, or even what I was getting myself involved in. I’ve been on a Messianic forum and also a Jewish Conservative and Orthodox on line group but along the way, and if I needed information about a prophet or Jewish history, I would go to globalyeshiva.com only if I wanted more information about what I was reading - or about a subject. There are many good on line authentic Jewish forums - some of them are usually locked discussions and you have to be a member of the synagogue to join them - but one can always observe the discussion. The reason why some of these Jewish forums are locked is to ‘lessen’ the confusion of people jumping into the discussion and also there are usually yeshiva students on board.

So if that gives you an idea - typically most Jewish forums (mostly Orthodox) do not allow Christian into the discussions. However, with a Messianic forum - I’m surprised you were even given a reply back - its a very cold discussion if they do, that perfectly natural. The whole way of understanding Torah and following the commandments, to the Messianic Christians - as some are converts from the Jewish religion and some are not, is rather starting out new, the Jewish that convert and have a full education are the ones’ who are instructing the members, that’s how it started. Yes, my understanding was that there were some groups (Jewish/Christians) that had been branched out from the Protestant religion as there are some from the Catholic religion, as well - Hebrew Catholics. I think these two groups were originally fostered to evangelize to the Jewish people and another reason for the division, so that some could still identify with their Jewish roots - and that is the “whole” part of these groups, to identify (again) with “not” only there identity but also to be allowed to follow the traditions of the Jews people - like Shabbat or Kosher, ritual purification and the high holy days.

Have they talked to you about Christmas, yet and about Christmas trees…uch: I’m sure some of the comments made to you were hurtful because after they finished with me - I walked away with a very different look at religion, I felt like a very very stupid person.

 

[MorningSong51]

Could be a Messianic protestant…very anti-Catholic from what I have seen. If I am not mistaken…their bible is called the AENT…aramaic english NT.

Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek…Most New Testaments come from Greek translations that were originally translated from Hebrew and Aramaic texts but I think the key word here is “Ancient Aramaic” - which I thought of the Peshito. Also, I found this article as well:

Bibles rescued from Syria in secret op: ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4131254,00.html

Holy books dating back 1,000 years, meticulously guarded by Jewish community, travel from Damascus to Israel in continent-wide, James Bond-style operation

 

[MorningSong51]

Ok I found another “bible” translation she uses. Hebrew roots version by James Trimm. Here is an indepth study of this particular guy and cohourts. seekgod.ca/trfactor2.htm. She really runs people down for celebrating "pagan"holidays and such. She had some JW background and now this. I have been kind to her while I debate her. She has many friends that both support and deny her claims. I do know that people look up to her as she is well spoken, beautiful family, seems sucessful, and can be compelling. It is sad to me how brainwashed her and her cronies seem to be, and their negative influence on others. Most of her accusations toward the Catholics come from Chick tracts and Alberto Rivera type stuff. I have been able to show her history on those subjects and back her off. The Pope and Mary worship are the latest tgings she is harping on. I am unsure whether I should cut ties and ignore her, or keep trying to chime in and refute her to expose some of the rhetoric. Christians and Jewish people alike seem annoyed with this person and friends " religious " practices.

A word to the wise, drop the group. You will either find yourself “joining” there unfriendly discussion about Catholics because that’s how they entangle you - or - you’ll be ignored, if you don’t agree with them. I think that scripture should be at least enjoyable to discuss - that is, without the politics behind it. Personally, the group’s reasons for the dislikes have nothing to do with scripture or about discovering Christ in them. Scripture (again) is about enlightening all persons - this should not be a forum about religious politics. some members, as I’ve became to realize it, are not on those forum for religious reasons - as some of their member were within the occult which other members within the group had discovered (that is, of past forums that I’ve joined - so talk about the pagan traditions (edit), some of these groups had them front and centered - present and account for). I guess a rule of thumb - check out the administrator of the forum and see how they join the group in a healthy discussion, also how they intervene when the discussion gets rather ruff.

 

[Khalid]

Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek…Most New Testaments come from Greek translations that were originally translated from Hebrew and Aramaic texts but I think the key word here is “Ancient Aramaic” - which I thought of the Peshito. Also, I found this article as well:

Bibles rescued from Syria in secret op: ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4131254,00.html

Holy books dating back 1,000 years, meticulously guarded by Jewish community, travel from Damascus to Israel in continent-wide, James Bond-style operation

The New Testament was originally written in Greek and in Greek alone, except for Matthew, which was written in Aramaic, which has been lost for over 1600 years. Much of the Greek (Mark and Paul’s writings) were obviously written by Jews who didn’t write excellent Greek, and were either uneducated (Peter) or spoke Aramaic as a native tongue (Peter and Mark). John’s Gospel, his Letters, and his Apocalypse are all written in a very unique style, but one thing that can never be said of it is that it is good - or even grammatical or correct - Greek. Some writings - Luke, Acts, Hebrews, and 2 Peter, are written in a Greek so excellent and eloquent as to surpass the author of 3 Maccabees and challenge the author of 4 Maccabees, with nary a trace of any Semiticism and a skilled rhetorical style - especially Hebrews. These were written either by polymath Jews who spoke Aramaic, Greek, and probably half a dozen other languages as well, or native speakers of Greek who had also received training in rhetoric, were intelligent and well-learned, and put it to good use - either that, or the Holy Spirit can and did challenge Aeschylus himself. The author of Hebrews, as well as being an excellent author of Greek, was obviously very well-versed in the Septuagint (all Scripture).

If you need to refute these “Judaizers” - and that’s what they are, Judaizers - read the Gospel of John, the Epistles (The Great Epistles, the Captivity Epistles, and the Catholic Epistles), and some of the writings of the Church Fathers, especially the Epistle of Barnabas and the homilies of St John Chrysostom, and Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho the Jew

 

[Coolhandlukexx]

Thanks for the responses thus far. You have very interesting perspectives. For clarification I am friends with this person on facebook. We have few mutual friends, but I see how her posts and links insult most everyone different from her. I’m the only RC who “takes the bait” of her accusations toward the Church. Here is a link to a site which she posts about frequently. doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.com/2011/10/what-real-witches-practice-after_23.html
The hypocrisy in her posts annoys myself and others. I also feel she really puts her friends salvation at risk if they fall prey to the nonsense. I have had the pleasure of working the last 12 years with several JW’s and am aware of cult tactics. She is not mean spirited, in fact in between insults she like bombing people with love. A trap for sure. Lol. I wonder how much traction these people are gaining with everyone wanting to be different and in the “new” way of things. Any more links to sites I can study to help understand the holes in their way is helpful. Thanks again to all.

 

[MorningSong51]

Thanks for the responses thus far. You have very interesting perspectives. For clarification I am friends with this person on facebook. We have few mutual friends, but I see how her posts and links insult most everyone different from her. I’m the only RC who “takes the bait” of her accusations toward the Church. Here is a link to a site which she posts about frequently. doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.com/2011/10/what-real-witches-practice-after_23.html
The hypocrisy in her posts annoys myself and others. I also feel she really puts her friends salvation at risk if they fall prey to the nonsense. I have had the pleasure of working the last 12 years with several JW’s and am aware of cult tactics. She is not mean spirited, in fact in between insults she like bombing people with love. A trap for sure. Lol. I wonder how much traction these people are gaining with everyone wanting to be different and in the “new” way of things. Any more links to sites I can study to help understand the holes in their way is helpful. Thanks again to all.

Are there other Catholics on this forum? and Is she from the Messianic movement? I know that there are divisions (now) within this religion - reform, conservative and even Orthodox, so is she Orthodox? and is she studying Kabbalah? There is a man that I know really well who is a very good person to talk with,Jewish Messianic Orthodox, he grew up Orthodox - and also another friend of mine who had turn to this movement (a former Catholic) who became a Rabbi, we grew up together as kid and now lives in Israel - outside Jerusalem.

You see some women, and depending upon which movement that one joins, are studying Jewish history - along with Hebrew and many other languages in college, they are very well educated but some are wearing the Kippah and the prayer shawl - which some have been reprimanded for doing this. Again, without knowing her religious background and the conversation, I would say she’s probably - in the two house movement which appears (almost - and somewhat close) to have much in common with Messianic Judaism because of their belief in the ongoing validity of the Mosaic Covenant… I know that various organizations such as the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America and Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations are extremely opposed the Two House teaching.

There are many Messianic or Christians that have a Jewish heritage,that I know - and even from our family’s background which is Jewish, that don’t even come close to the way these members act on line. I’m very proud of my heritage as any other person who has the same background. Today I understand certain things that I didn’t know when I was growing up but it was nothing compared to what’s these members are displaying - its insulting and demeaning to read half of what they write. There’s is a way to teach others about scripture and also to debate about the teachings from various points of view, but the whole part of the teachings is to add and not to subtract from the Glory of God. In these discussion groups, it not all about the law- its about honoring God, discussing how best fulfill the law that He commands those to follow them - by allowing Him to be apart of that togetherness within the discussion, and call it Pentecost - it enriches the spirit within the conversation - that is what they call,in the Tanakh, the word ruach generally means wind, breath, mind, spirit… or Ruach HaKodesh, the holy spirit.

another good website: hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Spirit_of_God/spirit_of_god.html

 

[MorningSong51]

The New Testament was originally written in Greek and in Greek alone, except for Matthew, which was written in Aramaic, which has been lost for over 1600 years. Much of the Greek (Mark and Paul’s writings) were obviously written by Jews who didn’t write excellent Greek, and were either uneducated (Peter) or spoke Aramaic as a native tongue (Peter and Mark). John’s Gospel, his Letters, and his Apocalypse are all written in a very unique style, but one thing that can never be said of it is that it is good - or even grammatical or correct - Greek. Some writings - Luke, Acts, Hebrews, and 2 Peter, are written in a Greek so excellent and eloquent as to surpass the author of 3 Maccabees and challenge the author of 4 Maccabees, with nary a trace of any Semiticism and a skilled rhetorical style - especially Hebrews. These were written either by polymath Jews who spoke Aramaic, Greek, and probably half a dozen other languages as well, or native speakers of Greek who had also received training in rhetoric, were intelligent and well-learned, and put it to good use - either that, or the Holy Spirit can and did challenge Aeschylus himself. The author of Hebrews, as well as being an excellent author of Greek, was obviously very well-versed in the Septuagint (all Scripture).

If you need to refute these “Judaizers” - and that’s what they are, Judaizers - read the Gospel of John, the Epistles (The Great Epistles, the Captivity Epistles, and the Catholic Epistles), and some of the writings of the Church Fathers, especially the Epistle of Barnabas and the homilies of St John Chrysostom, and Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho the Jew

Yes, understood - but these groups are centering on both the Tanakh - as well as the New Testament, so the language that they would need to study is all three and I agree with all of your statements in this post- totally! and I’ve read the Gospel of John as well as the others, however - some of the movement members, which I was really caught off guard and even surprised, have rejected the Apostle Paul’s writings, they don’t agree with him at all, they even write that on their introductory webpage before you join the group, rejected all Pauline theology.

So in order to communicate with any of these members - and knowing all of this, you would have to have some debate, and it would be specifically from the area of the Hebrew bible, New Testament to the Apostle’s writings on the identification of being Jewish - and the law, with the thought of this statement from scripture “But glory and honour and peace to all whose works are good, to the Jew first and then to the Greek”

Again, if the purpose of the discussion was to bring a better understanding of each others thoughts on their religion - and even if it were a general one, I wouldn’t attempt it - have you read any Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger books? - They’re very good, but again, I was able to understand to a degree, Jewish - Catholic?

 

[Coolhandlukexx]

I’ve looked through my past messages from her and she did mention that she attends a non-denominational church, but was actively seeking out a Messianic church. I was attacked pretty viciously by one of her friends whom she called a fellow “leader.” These were her responses to me that I copied and pasted:

Alberto Rivera is not a liar and you sir do not have the truth in you therefore you are of your father the devil for he comes for not but to kill, steal and destroy. Your works are exposed and your Jesuit ways did not take long to show up either.

Wherein pray tell did you insult Yahshuah other than you defend the harlot known as Roman Catholicism? If you are referring to Alberto, he is hardly my hero, but rather a sojourner on this earth whose time came to an end at the hands of the catholic church administration. Defend them, go ahead, Jesuits are well trained in murder, deception and in obfuscating the truth so as to subvert other branches of the cult you refer to as “christian”. It is no secret your founder was an evil man, no secret that the majority of popes were also evil and some merely misguided. All were deceived and those who came out of deception were handed the cup of Borgia. Albino Lucianni the latest victim, although there is talk of his predecessor having also been a victim, not to mention John Paul ll. No use in denying the Albino Lucianni murder, his relatives are known to me and I am fully aware of what happened and how it was covered up. As for Alberto’s widow, Nuri, she can tell her own story of how she was approached by the vatican representatives to accept their generous offer of one million dollars to tell them where Alberto’s body was buried so they could do a “proper” catholic burial. Good for her on refusing! She is one who truly walks in the Way as did her husband, Alberto. Looks like you have a lot to smoke in your pipe today Jesuit sympathizer. But tell me Jesuit, is it lawful for catholic priests and nuns to throw live babies into a fire? Is this what your doctrine teaches you? I have proof of this by the way, by not merely one account either. Spitting nails yet buddy? Yes, your father the devil for you display NO DIVINE nature in you, you are NOT a partaker of the divine nature and may never be UNLESS you REPENT of your wicked ways and forsake your evil path. Pretty simple really. Repentance = Eternal Life Sin = Death"

My freind deleted this thread after we talked privately and was regretful that these attacks were directed at me. I have been able to privately refute her friends wild claims and really seem to have her intersted in my point of view. She has confided some personal history of her upbringing. Is it naive of me to think that with rational discussion, exposure of lies, and kindness, that I can get her to re evaluate her position?

 

[MorningSong51]

I’ve looked through my past messages from her and she did mention that she attends a non-denominational church, but was actively seeking out a Messianic church. I was attacked pretty viciously by one of her friends whom she called a fellow “leader.” These were her responses to me that I copied and pasted:

Alberto Rivera is not a liar and you sir do not have the truth in you therefore you are of your father the devil for he comes for not but to kill, steal and destroy. Your works are exposed and your Jesuit ways did not take long to show up either.

Wherein pray tell did you insult Yahshuah other than you defend the harlot known as Roman Catholicism? If you are referring to Alberto, he is hardly my hero, but rather a sojourner on this earth whose time came to an end at the hands of the catholic church administration. Defend them, go ahead, Jesuits are well trained in murder, deception and in obfuscating the truth so as to subvert other branches of the cult you refer to as “christian”. It is no secret your founder was an evil man, no secret that the majority of popes were also evil and some merely misguided. All were deceived and those who came out of deception were handed the cup of Borgia. Albino Lucianni the latest victim, although there is talk of his predecessor having also been a victim, not to mention John Paul ll. No use in denying the Albino Lucianni murder, his relatives are known to me and I am fully aware of what happened and how it was covered up. As for Alberto’s widow, Nuri, she can tell her own story of how she was approached by the vatican representatives to accept their generous offer of one million dollars to tell them where Alberto’s body was buried so they could do a “proper” catholic burial. Good for her on refusing! She is one who truly walks in the Way as did her husband, Alberto. Looks like you have a lot to smoke in your pipe today Jesuit sympathizer. But tell me Jesuit, is it lawful for catholic priests and nuns to throw live babies into a fire? Is this what your doctrine teaches you? I have proof of this by the way, by not merely one account either. Spitting nails yet buddy? Yes, your father the devil for you display NO DIVINE nature in you, you are NOT a partaker of the divine nature and may never be UNLESS you REPENT of your wicked ways and forsake your evil path. Pretty simple really. Repentance = Eternal Life Sin = Death"

My friend deleted this thread after we talked privately and was regretful that these attacks were directed at me. I have been able to privately refute her friends wild claims and really seem to have her interested in my point of view. She has confided some personal history of her upbringing. Is it naive of me to think that with rational discussion, exposure of lies, and kindness, that I can get her to re evaluate her position?

Hi Coolhandlukexx,

WoW! You got the full uncut uncensored Esau = Rome version! Well, I’d wait until your asked to return the temple treasures from the Vatican archives, that will probably ice your cake!

I’ve been through that kind of discussion and much, much more. By the time I left that past group board - years ago, I didn’t know what to think about my religion or any religion. The Catholic bashing that I received left me pretty numb - I was just starting out. You know, when Christ began his ministry to the people, he could have come across to them pretty harsh - but he didn’t, he wept. He wept for the city and the people. When reading Nehemiah, as I do the Lord’s prayer - the first thing that comes to mind is forgiveness. Nehemiah had asked for God’s forgiveness:

19 “Because of your great compassion you did not abandon them in the wilderness. By day the pillar of cloud did not fail to guide them on their path, nor the pillar of fire by night to shine on the way they were to take. 20 You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst. 21 For forty years you sustained them in the wilderness; they lacked nothing, their clothes did not wear out nor did their feet become swollen."

and in the Lord’s pray: “Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”

…it took me along time and years of reading and praying to know and understand the compassion of God, we are all searching for him. Also, no matter what denomination that we come from, we are all allowed to come before in our prayers because of his son - Jesus opened that gate to us at a price, no one else paid it but him. On a side note, if I read you post correctly, you are a Jesuit - this religious order has brought a great many blessing to our family back home. My father was not a really religious man although he comes from a family heritage that has many ministers but it took a close friend (a Jesuit) to bring him back to the church. When I very young, my father received holy communion for the first time and I remember being very proud of him as this memory had left a very deep impression within me. You know what the best verse in the book of Acts? the one Peter received “9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four–footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” 14"Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” 15The voice spoke to him a second time, “**Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” **

 

[Khalid]

Are there other Catholics on this forum? and Is she from the Messianic movement? I know that there are divisions (now) within this religion - reform, conservative and even Orthodox, so is she Orthodox? and is she studying Kabbalah?

She doesn’t sound like a Kabbalist. Kabbalists tend to be pretty tolerant mystics in my experience, “all roads lead to the Beriah and Yesod” kind of people.

 

[Khalid]

…they even write that on their introductory webpage before you join the group, rejected all Pauline theology.

That means they’re not Christian in any sense, as they deny the New Testament church, not just the “paganized” church - the New Testament Church was a Pauline church…

If they get to decide to put Paul’s writings out of the Bible, what makes it so that you can’t decide to put Barnabas’ writings in it? Once the canon is lost, one’s allowed to use whatever they want, having lost measure and perspective - tell them, “if you take Paul’s writings out, why don’t you put the Epistle of Barnabas in? what gives you the right to reject the universal canon?” (the Epistle of Barnabas is strongly anti-Mosaic, anti-Judaizer in nature).

If they try to make some tendentious connection between the “teacher of righteousness” of the Qumran scrolls as James, and the “man of wickedness and corruption” from those same scrolls as Paul (like Elaine Pagels tries to do - this is the same woman who claims the 3-4th century Gospel of Thomas is to be identified with the Q-document) based on the Qumran Habakkuk Commentary… it’s worth laughing off more than refuting. It can’t really be fully refuted (no conspiracy theory can, as to refute it means “you’re in on it”), but it can be demonstrated to be relatively absurd - the whole standard “Jesus was an Essene and a Buddhist, the church is Paganized, Constantine wrote the Bible, Arius was unfairly rejected because the Pagans couldn’t understand a simple singular God” view, sometimes added to various views about the Church or various Saints, etc. - and much less fitting with the facts than the standard, orthodox, historically-recorded and verified received beliefs.

What’s keeping them from putting even the gnostic writings in the Bible, if they reject the canon? Nothing other than the fact that if they agree with the writings, they stay in the Bible, and if they don’t, they’re obviously not inspired - using a personal worldview as the magistrate of the canon, taking “Martin Lutherism” (he removed the deuterocanon because it supported purgatory and prayers for the dead, and tried to remove Hebrews, Revelation, and James, because they weren’t “by faith alone” enough for him) to an extreme.

P.S. Jesus in John was talking about the Jews (who demanded strict observance of the Mosaic law) when he condemned individuals as being of their father the devil. Do they reject the Gospel of John as well? There’s no way to read John and come away a Judaizer, nor an Arian nor Docetic. Beyond Paul’s writings, John is the ultimate weapon against heresy. When people start cutting out parts of the Bible they don’t agree with, it’s not the Bible anymore; any heresy can be thus justified. If all I left in the Bible was Protestant Esther and Ecclesiastes, I could claim the Bible had nothing to do with God and was a book of Existential philosophy. If all I left was Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation, it becomes a book very easily interpreted to be New Age or even Spiritist in alignment.

P.S.S. Jesus’ name in his own language (Aramaic) was “Yashu” or “Yasu”, not “Yehoshua” or whatever they’re trying to say. That becomes Iesu or Ioshu in Greek, and Iesus or Ioshu[a]s as the actually-used declension (“Iesu” can not be used in a sentence: “Joshua” and “Jesus” are the same name, just two different ways of transcribing Yasu’ in to Greek); this “Iesus” became “Jesus” when Latin gained the letter “J” later on (as originally I was used for modern I and J and V was used for modern U, V, and W).

P.S.S.S. It seems likely if she was raised in a cultish group, like Jehovah’s Witnessism or Mormonism, that she’d be attracted to cultish groups. Maybe turn her on the The Urantia Book, eh?

 

[Khalid]

An article (accurate from what I’ve read) on the origins and development of the name “Jesus” across several languages:

secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Iesu

Also, from what I’ve learned, that “besorah” (beyond being a plagiarization) is a Bible used by the “Sacred Name Movement”, which is an offshoot (along with such other glorious offshoots as the Branch Davidians) of Seventh-Day Adventism, a Judaizing Christian Resorationist movement (they hold that a woman called Ellen White was a prophet in the 19th century, and hold her writings to be scripture, and are extremely strict - Islamic-strict - in no drinking, dress code, no television, no theatre, no secular media whatsoever, no games, seventh-day sabbath, Jewish syncretism, and a whole host of other heterodoxy) - that is absolutely notorious for it’s anti-Catholicism (along with Judaization) which, as per the writings of Ellen White, is a basic tenet of their beliefs.

Like the Mormon church and Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7DAs try to convert members of other Protestant sects, and not just Catholics, showing, at least implicitly, how they view the rest of Christianity. The 7DAs seem to have abandoned or toned down many of their unique and heterodox/heretical doctrines recently (like the Mormons as well), playing down their difference from the mainstream (historically, that’s the strong suit of these sects, is being non-mainstream), and these various movements such as Sacred Name, etc. seem to have arisen out of factions that did not approve of the mainstreaming or modernizing of the organization and wanted to keep to the old ways, or ways even stricter and more idiosyncratic.

(The above article is hyperlinked to relevant documentation and further resources.)

 

[MorningSong51]

She doesn’t sound like a Kabbalist. Kabbalists tend to be pretty tolerant mystics in my experience, “all roads lead to the Beriah and Yesod” kind of people.

Hi Khalid,

I’m going to bring up the original post:

Greetings, I have been debating with a person on a public forum with mutual friends about her insulting posts. As far as I can tell she seems to be a part of some sort of sacred name, old Hebrew roots type church. She seems moral on social issues, but spits a lot of hate speech towards Catholics, and other more traditional churches. I have been able to refute most of her nonsense. I am trying to better understand where she is getting her reasons for this Hebrew obsession. Does anyone have any Catholic perspective on this particular “bible” she uses? Who wrote and interpreted this and under what authority? The title is in my heading. Any info would be appreciated

There is a difference between the BESORAH OF YAHUSHA and B’rit Chadashah -
The New Covenant of Adonai. However, I don’t know and you will have to ask if one needs to study the B’rit Chadashah before they delve into the Besorah, also I think you might ask her if she’s is a member of the Natsarim/Messianic, or The Netzarim faith? Again, I think she might, again might, need some understanding of Kabbalah - with her text, not sure.

I think the hebrew4christian website gives a very excellent explanations to what the thread holder may need into the understanding of this facebook member better.

BESORAH OF YAHUSHA
This is a 1344-page SOFT COVER edition, and a new English translation of the complete 66 books of Scripture restoring the Personal Name of the Creator to the text in **palaeo-Hebrew script. **

Then skipping down in the information provided on the page you’ll see the two house restoration - see additional information:

“While the study of the pictographic script can sometimes yield insight into the underlying meaning (etymology) of Biblical Hebrew words, it is generally to be avoided as a stand-alone exegetical principle since this can lead to speculations and doubtful interpretations.For honest interpretation, the rule of thumb is to first master the p’shat (plain historical meaning) before moving on to other “levels” of the Scriptures.” Read further: hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Pictograms/pictograms.html

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B’rit Chadashah - The New Covenant of Adonai

The New Testament is called the B’rit Chadashah in Hebrew, meaning “New Covenant” (the word B’rit means “covenant” and Chadashah means “new”). Like the Tanakh, it can be divided into three main parts: Gospels/Acts (corresponding to Torah), Letters (corresponding to Ketuvim), and Revelation (corresponding to Nevi’im):hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Brit_Chadashah/brit_chadashah.html

 

[Coolhandlukexx]

I have had more a few more quick discussions with my “friend.” She claims Kabbalah as witchcraft and has nothing to do with it. She also does not reject the writings of Paul. She says a cult she knows of does that but she does not support them. She says she rejects the Catholic churches translations on some things. I’m scanning through some other messages, she is always attacking the church for changing the sabbath. Basically everything goes back to attacking supposed “paganism” of the church.

 

[MorningSong51]

I have had more a few more quick discussions with my “friend.” She claims Kabbalah as witchcraft and has nothing to do with it. She also does not reject the writings of Paul. She says a cult she knows of does that but she does not support them. She says she rejects the Catholic churches translations on some things. I’m scanning through some other messages, she is always attacking the church for changing the sabbath. Basically everything goes back to attacking supposed “paganism” of the church.

Sorry this message is coming late:

Yes, what they call the main stream Kabbalah is of the occult -and yes, they’ve distorted the teachings really well. However, Messianic congregations do study the teachings of Kabbalah as do most Jewish congregation - only when a student reaches a particular age and after being taught the Torah & Talmud. As with the Sephardi and Mizrahi Jewish communities, it is also studied (apart of the student’s curriculum). However, Karaite Jews don’t place any value in Kabbalah at all.

I’m glad to hear that she did not reject Paul’s writings, as I know some Messianic groups took a very grim stand toward them. Remember the Shabbat with both movements is highly observed. Christians, per se - do not have to observe this day because it was set aside as a Jewish custom. In the process of converting over to the Jewish religion, as with the Messianic movement, the Rabbi will instruct those who are converting when they should start to observe it - that is actually the custom after the person meets with the Rabbi and (I believe) they take instructions (Lessons), at that time some will approach the Rabbi on when they should be allowed. Again, like any religion, there is a process and it should be a guide post for all new members. A person really shouldn’t go off on their own - when it comes to a matter of religion and belong to a community.

As we know Sunday is the day our Lord resurrected - and his resurrection took place after the “Great Shabbat - Shabbat Hagadol” the Shabbat before Pesach (Passover) - Sunday commences with the “first” day of creation, "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

So this verse has its divine message to John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it”

Sunday, also has a special connection to Pentecost, The feast of First Fruits was to occur on the day after the Sabbath, as the Apostles received God’s Spirit - reflecting on: John 16:7, '“I tell you the truth: it is beneficial for you that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Redeemer of the accursed will not come to you, but if I depart I shall send him to you.”

Continuing to read through scripture - there is a mysticism about Pentecost, that one would almost have to interpret:

and when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language (Acts 2:1–6)

Since Shavuot occurs 50 days after Passover, Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, “fiftieth day”). Remember, on Shavout - the spirit of God descends in a fiery cloud. In Leviticus 23:10-11. This is the day of offering Barley Firstfruits during Passover, but…there was controversy over what “day after the Sabbath” meant - everything points to Sunday.

 

[Coolhandlukexx]

The perspective that they repeatedly give is that the church changed to sabbath to impose its power over Gods basically. I know that is not true, getting these people to see a different view is massively difficult! Here is more discussion from one of her friends after an anti-Catholic post regarding the “sun day sabbath”.

1.) “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”? This is NOT what it says in the ORIGINAL Hebrew.

As if there is some GENERAL kind of knowledge, facts, information or teaching that people are LACKING.

2.) “Because you have rejected knowledge?” This is NOT what it says in the original Hebrew.

And as if there is some GENERAL kind of knowledge, facts, information or teaching that people have REJECTED.

And while, in a given situation, there may be some specific knowledge, fact, truth, understanding, insight, or piece of information that one needs or lacks, this verse says something very SPECIFIC and very PRECISE in the Hebrew.

1.) The Hebrew says: “My people are destroyed for LACK of THE knowledge…” They lack THE knowledge of WHAT? The answer is: TORAH – they are destroyed for lack of THE knowledge of TORAH.

2.) The Hebrew says: “…because they have REJECTED THE knowledge…” They have rejected THE knowledge of WHAT? The answer is: TORAH – they have rejected THE knowledge of Torah.

The Hebrew words reveal and teach this in various other ways, but without going into all of that here, this part of the verse, makes it clear anyway:

“… Because you have forgotten the “LAW” ( Torah “law” תַרֹוּת ) of your ELohim ( Eloh-heh-chah ָךיֶהֹלֱא )

And what is the consequence of: a.) their LACK of THE knowledge of the Torah b.) their REJECTION of THE Torah c.) their forgetting the “law” (commandments, statutes and judgments of THE TORAH?

• I ( YHWH הָוהְי ) also will REJECT YOU from being PRIEST for Me - I ( YHWH הָוהְי ) also will REJECT YOUR children

Is it any wonder why there are so many false pastors, false teachers, false apostles and false prophets, who simply do NOT know YHWH.

 

[andrewstx]

Actually the NT was written in Greek, not Aramaic and certainly not Hebrew. I can see where your correspondent would be so particularly picky about names coming from JW background.

The word “Jehovah” is incorrect it comes from joining the vowels of one Hebrew word with the consonants of an entirely different word.

IMO “messianic Jews” are fundamental Protestants that take a few Hebrew words and try to be Christian and Jewish at once. They dislike the liturgical year preferring the Jewish calendar. That I feel explains her hatred of Christmas.

They are much like the SDAs who combine parts of Christianity with Jewish parts, like saturday Sabbath along with a semi-kosher diet. They refuse to eat “unclean” meats. Or like the followers of Armstrong who also hated the Christian calendar.

There are many people who gather for Passover, not Easter. Often times they will call Easter “pagan” confuseing it with an Egyptian "god"called Ishtar.