Best of both worlds--reverent OF and EF High Mass in one weekend

[GwenL]

A grand slam weekend! Yesterday, I assisted at an OF Mass celebrating the feast day of St Josemaria. For people that think that the OF cannot be celebrated reverently, I recommend that you go to one celebrated by priests of Opus Dei. The Mass was heavenly–reverent, solemn, and holy. It was by the book, the priests sung many prayers in Latin, and not an EMHC in sight despite (I estimate) 1000+ parishioners and four priests.

Today, I assisted at a High Mass in the EF celebrated by an FSSP priest, with a choir, Gregorian chant, and polyphony. My first EF High Mass–Wow! It was pretty easy to follow the Mass in the 1962 missal provided, though I often just ditched the missal and absorbed the glory. A question, though, for you tradsters. I was under the impression that the people said almost nothing during an EF Mass and that our participation was mostly in silent prayer. Today, we sang and replied quite often–in fact, nearly as often as in the OF. All in Latin, of course, but there were many more responses than I expected. Is this a function of the High Mass? By the way, I did not notice any “Amish” women, but did see many modestly dressed people

 

[MarkThompson]

It’s called the Dialogue Mass, or Missa dialogata. It was invented in around the 1920s to satisfy people who wanted to say the responses of the sacred ministers themselves – the Confiteor and so on, which were traditionally not for the congregation to participate in. I wasn’t aware that the practice had crept its way into the High Mass also, but I guess these days you never know what you’re going to get.

 

[GwenL]

Mark, the congregation did not say or sing the confetior or the Agnus Dei or the Pater Noster. But we did sing the about half of the Credo, and many “et cum spiritu tuo” replies, and some other replies. It probably wasn’t as much as I made it sound like, but it was about 150% more than I expected.

 

[MarkThompson]

Mark, the congregation did not say or sing the confetior or the Agnus Dei or the Pater Noster. But we did sing the about half of the Credo, and many “et cum spiritu tuo” replies, and some other replies. It probably wasn’t as much as I made it sound like, but it was about 150% more than I expected.

Oh, aha, makes sense then. The Credo can be treated antiphonally and alternated between two choirs, or between one choir and the congregation, so that’s probably what was done. Glad you had such a good experience at both Masses!

 

[corsair]

The way our FSSP priest and congregation handle the Pater Noster is thus; priest begins the prayer and prays it all the way to, sed libra nos a malo, which is where we pick it up and respond with the schola.
But mostly our congregation is silent.

Mark is correct, your congregation is probably using the Dialog Mass.

 

[mick321]

A grand slam weekend! Yesterday, I assisted at an OF Mass celebrating the feast day of St Josemaria. For people that think that the OF cannot be celebrated reverently, I recommend that you go to one celebrated by priests of Opus Dei. The Mass was heavenly–reverent, solemn, and holy. It was by the book, the priests sung many prayers in Latin, and not an EMHC in sight despite (I estimate) 1000+ parishioners and four priests.

Today, I assisted at a High Mass in the EF celebrated by an FSSP priest, with a choir, Gregorian chant, and polyphony. My first EF High Mass–Wow! It was pretty easy to follow the Mass in the 1962 missal provided, though I often just ditched the missal and absorbed the glory. A question, though, for you tradsters. I was under the impression that the people said almost nothing during an EF Mass and that our participation was mostly in silent prayer. Today, we sang and replied quite often–in fact, nearly as often as in the OF. All in Latin, of course, but there were many more responses than I expected. Is this a function of the High Mass? By the way, I did not notice any “Amish” women, but did see many modestly dressed people

Fantastic.

Nearly all EF Masses in my area are offered in the dialog format. The Solemn High Mass with the faithful and schola alternating verses is becoming more common. An article on the history of the dialog mass can be viewed here:

romanitaspress.com/articl…le-remnant.pdf

Would you care to reveal the general locations of the Masses you assisted this weekend?

 

[ljubim]

A grand slam weekend! Yesterday, I assisted at an OF Mass celebrating the feast day of St Josemaria. For people that think that the OF cannot be celebrated reverently, I recommend that you go to one celebrated by priests of Opus Dei. The Mass was heavenly–reverent, solemn, and holy. It was by the book, the priests sung many prayers in Latin, and not an EMHC in sight despite (I estimate) 1000+ parishioners and four priests.

Today, I assisted at a High Mass in the EF celebrated by an FSSP priest, with a choir, Gregorian chant, and polyphony. My first EF High Mass–Wow! It was pretty easy to follow the Mass in the 1962 missal provided, though I often just ditched the missal and absorbed the glory. A question, though, for you tradsters. I was under the impression that the people said almost nothing during an EF Mass and that our participation was mostly in silent prayer. Today, we sang and replied quite often–in fact, nearly as often as in the OF. All in Latin, of course, but there were many more responses than I expected. Is this a function of the High Mass? By the way, I did not notice any “Amish” women, but did see many modestly dressed people

That’s awesome :extrahappy: I’m actually way more proud of you for the first one… those are a lot more rare than TLMs A lot of us want OF Masses like that. Thanks for posting about the TLM too, it’s always great hearing about peoples’ first impressions.

If, at the beginning of Mass, the priest and congregation went back and forth a lot with different lines like “Introibo ad altare Dei” and “Misereatur vestris omnipotens Deus,” then this was a dialogue Mass (also the priest rarely, if ever, sits). But at a normal TLM, the priest will have some sitting time while the choir and people finish the singing. Both are excellent though… the Dialogue Mass really helps you internalize different prayers so that it’s easier to follow along without the Missal at regular Masses (memorizing the Mass / freeing myself from the Missal is my goal right now inspired by a Cardinal Arinze quote saying that we don’t necessarily need to consult a book every time we want to speak with our loved one)

Again, beautiful post

 

[GwenL]

The OF Mass in San Francisco, the EF in Sacramento.

 

[mick321]

The OF Mass in San Francisco, the EF in Sacramento.

Thanks. I suspect that there may be regional differences in how the EF is offered in the US.

An article on the history of the dialog mass can be viewed here:
[repaired link]
romanitaspress.com/articles/dialog_mass_article-remnant.pdf

 

[mick321]

The way our FSSP priest and congregation handle the Pater Noster is thus; priest begins the prayer and prays it all the way to, sed libra nos a malo, which is where we pick it up and respond with the schola.
But mostly our congregation is silent.

Mark is correct, your congregation is probably using the Dialog Mass.

Are you describing a sung High Mass or spoken Low Mass? Aside from the Pater Noster, is the balance of Mass offered using the dialog format? Can you determine if your FSSP priest expects responses or silence from the faithful? Has he ever stated a preference?

I suspect there may be regional differences in how the EF is offered in the US. Have you assisted the EF in other regions? Have you ever “assisted” a public EF offering where prayer responses by the faithful were discouraged in any way?

 

[GwenL]

Mick, my first EF High Mass ever. It was published in the bulletin as a High Mass. Other than that, I’m pretty ignorant about what kind of Mass it was.

I don’t know about the dialog Mass, I’ll have to look at the link. But the priest did a lot of sitting, (and getting up and down) especially at the beginnning.

 

[mick321]

It’s called the Dialogue Mass, or Missa dialogata. It was invented in around the 1920s to satisfy people who wanted to say the responses of the sacred ministers themselves – the Confiteor and so on, which were traditionally not for the congregation to participate in. I wasn’t aware that the practice had crept its way into the High Mass also, but I guess these days you never know what you’re going to get.

The faithful are not infiltrators who have “crept into” the Catholic Mass. The tradition of the faithful responding to the prayers of the priest originated more than a thousand years before the “invention” of dialog mass in the 1920’s.

romanitaspress.com/articles/dialog_mass_article-remnant.pdf

The Development of Low Mass and its Influence on Lay Participation

Notwithstanding that the overwhelming majority of Masses celebrated today in the Latin Church are according to the Low Mass form, the sung Solemn Mass form is more ritualistically complete and comprises the liturgical standard for the rite of Mass. Until roughly the seventh century, all Masses were sung in the liturgical rites of both the East and the West. In an era when there was an abundance of clerics to fulfill the various liturgical offices and before Gregorian chant was nearly abandoned, Solemn Masses were seen frequently if not daily in Europe, especially in cathedrals, major churches and monasteries where the Divine Liturgies continue to be sung. The particular liturgical discipline of the Latin Church, where concelebration was practiced only on special occasions and later ceased altogether, was just one contributing factor to the development of Low Mass, especially in religious communities where only a single priest could offer the daily sung conventual Mass.

When first introduced, the Low Mass was intended for use by a priest without the public’s attendance; hence its official term Missa Privatis. These privately said Masses did not include the ministers or schola as at Solemn Mass. So the celebrant absorbed the readings and propers normally distributed amongst the deacon, subdeacon and schola at Solemn Mass, while the acolyte absorbed the preparatory prayers the sacred ministers dialoged with the celebrant and the Kyriale responses that the schola and laity would make in unison; thus originated the idea that the server represents the faithful. Meanwhile, the sung form continued to be used for the public conventual or parochial Masses. However, an unfortunate side effect of the common use of Low Mass combined with the decline of Catholic culture led to the diminishing of the solemn form’s ideal, hence the vocal participation of the laity gradually became a foreign concept in the Western Church.

Once we understand that Solemn Mass was for centuries the usual form for public Masses and remains the normative form, several important interlocking points come into relief. First, singing during Mass should be the norm, not the exception. Second, it is the sung Mass that demonstrates most perfectly the Roman norm for reverent silence, not the Low form. Third, at sung Masses the proper division of the liturgical offices amongst the various ministers is clearly denoted. Here some further explanation is needed to expel some predominate misconceptions that many have concerning the position of the acolyte, or altar server.

The liturgical office of acolyte is the highest of the minor orders whose main duty is to minister the cruets, carry the candles in procession and assist the sacred ministers. Though at the spoken Low Mass the acolyte responds to the celebrant, per the rubrics for Solemn Mass neither the acolytes nor the sacred ministers make any of the responses sung by the schola. This office belongs to the schola which leads the congregation in singing the Kyriale, whose dialoged parts are directed to the combined choir and congregation (e.g., “Dominus vobiscum,” the Preface, “Ite, missa est”) which are all conjugated in the plural form and not the singular. This same practice also exists in the Eastern Rites. So only with the later development of Low Mass did the acolyte, out of necessity, assume the responses made by the schola. Masses were usually of the solemn form.

By the ninth century, a peculiar spoken adaptation of the sung Solemn Mass had gradually developed in the Latin Rite: the Low Mass. This abbreviated and recited version of the sung form is unique to the Latin Rite and its equal does not exist in the Eastern Rites

 

[MarkThompson]

The faithful are not infiltrators who have “crept into” the Catholic Mass. The tradition of the faithful responding to the prayers of the priest originated more than a thousand years before the “invention” of dialog mass in the 1920’s.

Well, at best what you have is something that started out as an abuse of the low Mass (our goal is high Mass, not low Mass, BTW), that the Vatican conditionally approved in the Modern era. If you’ve actually read your article, it does not say that the dialogue Mass was used prior to the twentieth century, it just draws out a vague and unlikely argument that congregational singing during the low Mass in previous centuries somehow makes congregational expropriation of the sacred ministers’ responses a good idea. The article definitely has it right when it discusses “The influence of the Protestant Revolution and formation of a “Low Mass Mentality”: “This individualistic Protestant spirit began to gradually seep in amongst the Catholic clergy and laity alike.”

You seem to have a real attachment to more modern variations and innovations on the Mass; it sounds like the OF might be a better fit for you, have you given that any consideration? I mean that in all seriousness, you can say responses to your heart’s content there.

 

[mick321]

Well, at best what you have is something that started out as an abuse of the low Mass (our goal is high Mass, not low Mass, BTW), that the Vatican conditionally approved in the Modern era. If you’ve actually read your article, it does not say that the dialogue Mass was used prior to the twentieth century, it just draws out a vague and unlikely argument that congregational singing during the low Mass in previous centuries somehow makes congregational expropriation of the sacred ministers’ responses a good idea. The article definitely has it right when it discusses “The influence of the Protestant Revolution and formation of a “Low Mass Mentality”: “This individualistic Protestant spirit began to gradually seep in amongst the Catholic clergy and laity alike.”

You seem to have a real attachment to more modern variations and innovations on the Mass; it sounds like the OF might be a better fit for you, have you given that any consideration? I mean that in all seriousness, you can say responses to your heart’s content there.

Our TLM community offers the EF High Mass every Sunday morning.

I agree that your goal of someday assisting the EF High Mass is commendable. I will pray that the opportunity presents itself sooner rather than later. Either way, there is nothing to fear. The first few times, just watch, listen and learn. Not all Catholics are comfortable with their singing voice, so you won’t feel like the lone ranger.

Regarding the OF, “less aversion” is probably more accurate than “real attachment”. Since Lent, I have been attending morning prayers and assisting the daily OF Mass at the residential house of a religious order. I am among about ten lay faithful who assist on a regular basis. The mass is offered by a primary celebrant and four concelebrants. Everyone else is a priest or religious brother, active duty or retired. They offer Mass in the vernacular, pray the Pater Noster with hands raised, and receive CITH. I’m grateful to be there.

Peace.