Best or favorite model for understanding value of death?

[dshix]

a.)Then why was there a tree of eternal life in the garden if there was no death? (minor, but it had not occurred to me to wonder at that before)

b.)Because trying to understand as far as we are able is one of the things we do. ?] We’re not fideists, for goodness’ sake.

c.)On that reading, it sounds like Christ’s death did not reconcile us to God?]

d.)The example makes it worse, not better. What kind of loving person would continue beating their grandchildren for something their children did? Again, I get that it says that, but I’m working for an understanding that doesn’t just render the ideas like parent and bridegroom as seeming contradictions to our way of understanding. That doesn’t mean they aren’t. I get that God could be a paradox to us, but at some point it becomes moot to attempt theology at all, then.

Regarding point ‘a’:
The Tree of Life didn’t “give” eternal life to Adam and Eve, they already had it by their creation. In other words, they didn’t need it to live forever.

I think it symbolizes God’s grace, but I’m honestly not well versed in the Fathers’ explanation.

Regarding your other questions… consider this narrative put forth by Bishop Fulton Sheen (in my own words because I couldn’t find a transcript):

–
There is a great king who owns a magnificent castle and much wealth. He is a very loving king, and finds a young man to whom he wishes to give the castle, with all its privileges and pleasures. This man brings his wife with him, and they live in great happiness there.

But one day the man and his wife betray the king, and the king, very saddened, casts them out of the castle, because they are unworthy to live within it. This man and wife go out into the wilderness, fallen from their previously high state. They have children, but those children, though innocent of their parents’ sin, of course do not have possession of the castle and its pleasures, because their parents lost it for them.​

So it is with Original Sin. The castle represents all of the supernatural privileges that Adam and Eve had: freedom from death, disease, suffering, sorrow. It also represents them infused virtues given to them by God.

When they lost these gifts, their children lost them too, not because those children were not innocent, but because they could not inherit that which their parents had lost. This fallen nature is due to that Original Sin, and we all have the mark of that loss upon our souls, which is the source of concupiscence.

Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was atonement for the eternal damnation due to us and our parents because of their sin, but it did not restore everything to the state that it was before. Sin still exists, and though we are forgiven, we still must work against the effects of Original Sin.

I hope this helps.

 

[GEddie]

I’d hate to be living with the likes of the Hitlers, Stalins, where evil men stays around for ever. In no time, powerful evil men will rule this world.

Nuts to that.

Tyranny only works in an atmosphere of human death, by inflicting or threatening to inflict it on those who won’t follow. In a world of deathless bodies, the one great weapon of tyranny would be blunted and indeed pointless.

ICXC NIKA

 

[ericc]

Nuts to that.

Tyranny only works in an atmosphere of human death, by inflicting or threatening to inflict it on those who won’t follow. In a world of deathless bodies, the one great weapon of tyranny would be blunted and indeed pointless.

ICXC NIKA

Bodies can still be destroyed even if they don’t die from aging. Heads can be decapitated, bodies blown to smithereens, starved to death, water torture, endless torture for a body that doesn’t die from aging. Imagine how much fun a sadist can have with all his torture equipment. Victims that never die on him so that he can prolong his fun. Tyranny works even better when a victim knows he can not escape through death and the torturer reminds the victim of it. For some, death by suicide is a blessing.

 

[ericc]

Nuts to that.

I’d rather live in a global NYC than lose my body. I don’t think poetic environmentalism changes the sheer cruelty that is human death.

Good for you. I won’t want to live forever or say a thousand years in a corrupted world. But heaven? Yes, best environment there is. Why wait?

But for those who don’t have the means to live in a global NYC but global slums of Calcutta or refugee camps, that long life wish may not be sought for so eagerly. History shows strong powerful rich folks like to live forever, always looking for that elixir of life. Emperors of China search for it. For one who seeks long life most probably is doing quite well and living very comfortably.

And the pressure of population is the one thing that will make the technology of off-world travel a reality. We don’t have it now precisely because the earth is not yet crowded enough to need it.

That’s fantasy. Only selected or privileged few can be off-worlded. Who will pay for it? We already have extreme poverty in the world today and we can’t even help them adequately. Which planet were you thinking off that is earth-like or is man supposed to live in artificial environments out there forever?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Regarding point ‘a’:
The Tree of Life didn’t “give” eternal life to Adam and Eve, they already had it by their creation. In other words, they didn’t need it to live forever.

I think it symbolizes God’s grace, but I’m honestly not well versed in the Fathers’ explanation.

Genesis 3:22 “. . . Therefore he must not be allowed to put forth his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat it and live forever.” That does seem to contrast strangely with Gen 3:3 [of the Good/Evil tree] “. . . shall not eat it lest you die.” Though maybe that was because God knew he would separate them from the tree. I have no idea how this plays out in a not-completely-literal reading of the story.

There is a great king who owns a magnificent castle and much wealth. He is a very loving king, and finds a young man to whom he wishes to give the castle, with all its privileges and pleasures. This man brings his wife with him, and they live in great happiness there.

But one day the man and his wife betray the king, and the king, very saddened, casts them out of the castle, because they are unworthy to live within it. This man and wife go out into the wilderness, fallen from their previously high state. They have children, but those children, though innocent of their parents’ sin, of course do not have possession of the castle and its pleasures, because their parents lost it for them.​

So it is with Original Sin. The castle represents all of the supernatural privileges that Adam and Eve had: freedom from death, disease, suffering, sorrow. It also represents them infused virtues given to them by God.

When they lost these gifts, their children lost them too, not because those children were not innocent, but because they could not inherit that which their parents had lost. This fallen nature is due to that Original Sin, and we all have the mark of that loss upon our souls, which is the source of concupiscence.

Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was atonement for the eternal damnation due to us and our parents because of their sin, but it did not restore everything to the state that it was before. Sin still exists, and though we are forgiven, we still must work against the effects of Original Sin.

I hope this helps.

A fair enough idea about the king in his castle, but if that king expected or hoped the children would love him or pay him homage or think him a wonderful and gentle grandfather from their bitter life of exile, we would surely think him somewhat less than rational. Right? Why would they miss him and feel incomplete without him? And let us suppose that he set a moat of fire around his castle. A hundred generations hence, he sends the descendants an invitation to come and visit him and be restored to the life their ancestors lost, and if they live lives of great courage then they may cross through the moat of fire they can be with him and will not be touched by the flames. Well after seeing a thousand or ten thousand brave souls disappear into the moat of fire to the sound of screaming and then silence never to be heard from again, how could they feel loved or welcomed or have much hope they would survive? To the specific point, though, unless testing someone to the bounds of their hope is a display of love, then how is this good parenting?

How is this different than a parent who whips their child to see if their child will love them truly? Even if the kid had behaved in the most disrespectful, disobedient ways.

Forgive the extreme examples, I’m not attempting to disparage; I’m trying to highlight the distinction with easier cases and then see how the case in question might differ. I well appreciate that this would be inconsistent - but that’s kind of the point of puzzlement.

I value these conversations more than I can fairly say. For myself and for all the future clients I will counsel through dark times and the death of loved ones.

 

[GEddie]

Dear Neoplatonist:

I just wanted to say that while the illustration of the king’s castle was IMNAAHO grade A, your rebuttal was A1 A1.

Keep up the good work both of youse guys.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Neoplatonist]

Thank you. So many of the members on here have such great perspectives. I love how people with such ability and backgrounds are willing to help me wrestle through ideas.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I think death of the physical body is best for this world. I’d hate to live in a world where nothing dies, nothing rots, and every generation of your ancestors are there to remind you of things in the good old days. Everyone’s related.

I’d hate to be living with the likes of the Hitlers, Stalins, where evil men stays around for ever. In no time, powerful evil men will rule this world. I think nice guys don’t end up winners in the long run, in this world at least.

And in no time, we will be running out of space, animals have to make space for man, green fields and parks are luxuries. Do we have enough green lungs and air for everyone, including animals?. And the only way to reduce the human population is war or natural disasters/famine. I am presuming if one can live forever the body can regenerate itself with adequate provisions. More or less sickness proof.

You get the picture. We can’t AFFORD to live forever. Nursing homes will run out of room and those who can’t afford it will be on the streets.

Garden of Eden is so because it need only feed 2. With 108 billion people to date, it will be a garden no more. I think even if people can live to 250 years not to say forever, it will be a major major mess economically, geographically and politically. If democracies are in operation, the majority will be senior citizens. Resources need to be reallocated.etc

Jesus himself said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

 

[GEddie]

Jesus himself said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Except that I for one would rather continue being me than be dead and “bear fruit” (whatever that means!)

A human being is not a plant!

ICXC NIKA

 

[fisherman_carl]

Except that I for one would rather continue being me than be dead and “bear fruit” (whatever that means!)

A human being is not a plant!

ICXC NIKA

Jesus was talking about his death on a Cross and how that would bring life to others. Right after that he said, “Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”

How many would want life to remain the same as it is now forever? We were created for more than this life. Our hearts long for something more.

At some point our lives need conclusion or finality, either away or towards God. We can’t live in flux forever.

God is light and in him there is no darkness.

ICXC NIKA means Jesus Christ conquers. What did he conquer? Death, sin, this world, the devil.

Jesus is the reason for our hope.

 

[Neoplatonist]

We all have to go through it, just like Jesus had to go through the system.

Not sure I quite see your line of thinking for how that explains its value. That everyone has to do something doesn’t seem to make it less terrifying somehow. Does it? I mean, the fact that everyone has to go to the dentist sometimes doesn’t comfort me one smidge when that giant needle comes for me.

 

[GEddie]

Not sure I quite see your line of thinking for how that explains its value. That everyone has to do something doesn’t seem to make it less terrifying somehow. Does it? I mean, the fact that everyone has to go to the dentist sometimes doesn’t comfort me one smidge when that giant needle comes for me.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Not sure I quite see your line of thinking for how that explains its value. That everyone has to do something doesn’t seem to make it less terrifying somehow. Does it? I mean, the fact that everyone has to go to the dentist sometimes doesn’t comfort me one smidge when that giant needle comes for me.

Perhaps, you could comfort someone going to the dentist by saying its not that bad. Especially,with modern dentists. I mean I had my wisdom teeth out and I didn’t even feel a thing.

As far as death is concerned. I personally do not like it. And, I haven’t been able to completely lose my fear of it. And actually the Bible says death is not good and does not come from God. But came through the devil’s envy. But what comforts me is faith in Jesus and in his words about dying and living in him. He said if you believe in him you will never die. And if you die and believe in him you shall live.

Also, I find stories of near death experiences to be comforting. Just like someone who went to the dentist before me and lost their fear of going to the dentist, so is someone who experienced death and lost their fear of death. I find that to be somewhat comforting.

 

[fisherman_carl]

For me what scares me about death is that it is a big change. And I tend to fear change. Sure, the suffering scares me. Although, I have lived with chronic pain for some time now. What really scares me is being forced to leave my loved ones behind and going to some unknown place or reality.

But, I think what comforts me from that is coming to know God better and his love for me (and others-since we can experience God’s love through coming to know his love for others). So that death isn’t going to some scary unknown, but going home to the God who loves me. As long as God is just some big unknown force running the universe it remains a scary thing. But if I have genuine intimacy with God and really come to experience God and his love for me in the here and now (and not just intellectually) that fear begins to melt away.

When my relationship with God grows and God is the most important thing to me then dying will be like going home. As long as I have some fear and doubts about God that fear continues to have some hold over me.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Trying to model God and thinking of death as a system is a problem in and of itself.

The sooner we accept that God and death are ineffable the sooner we are at peace about them. Not everything can be explained.

The OP speaks of the “most compassionate system.” Compassion doesn’t always make something easy. A compassionate doctor may still have to amputate a gangrenous leg to save someone’s life and God takes our life so that we can get it back again. The fact that it is painful or terrifying doesn’t mean that God lacks compassion.

-Tim-

Right. My point is not about whether God IS compassionate, but about whether we can make sense of seeing Him that way. If the doctor is cutting off people’s legs for some perfectly good and compassionate reason of his own, but it doesn’t make sense to us, and he doesn’t offer additional insight when asked, we would lock him away. Right? Even if everything else about his life reflected compassion (volunteers at the clinic on weekends, helps with Red Cross, bakes cookies for the parish bake sale, whatever.)

NP

 

[Techno2000]

Not sure I quite see your line of thinking for how that explains its value. That everyone has to do something doesn’t seem to make it less terrifying somehow. Does it? I mean, the fact that everyone has to go to the dentist sometimes doesn’t comfort me one smidge when that giant needle comes for me.

I say prayers throughout the day, and this gives me some inner peace to get through life.

 

[ericc]

For me what scares me about death is that it is a big change. And I tend to fear change. Sure, the suffering scares me. Although, I have lived with chronic pain for some time now. What really scares me is being forced to leave my loved ones behind and going to some unknown place or reality.

But, I think what comforts me from that is coming to know God better and his love for me (and others-since we can experience God’s love through coming to know his love for others). So that death isn’t going to some scary unknown, but going home to the God who loves me. As long as God is just some big unknown force running the universe it remains a scary thing. But if I have genuine intimacy with God and really come to experience God and his love for me in the here and now (and not just intellectually) that fear begins to melt away.

When my relationship with God grows and God is the most important thing to me then dying will be like going home. As long as I have some fear and doubts about God that fear continues to have some hold over me.

We all know everyone gotta go. Generation after generation. I think we all want our loved ones around us, even after death. My fear would be we will not be together.

My biggest fear is doubt. It goes something like this:

Although (mentally) we want to be with God and loathe the devil, what if God thinks I don’t make the grade? What if I have unconfessed mortal sins that I have forgotten? What if I stumble and fall at the very last stage abnd I didn’t have “time” to make a confession? What if everyone that I love gets to heaven except me? When Paul says “fear and trembling”, I fully appreciate those words. I don’t have the cocksureness of OSAS definitely and I cringe every time I hear someone claiming that to be his insurance policy. That is almost a sure fire way to the other side. To rely on that seems to betray that person’s mindset that he can get away with any sin.

Many whatifs cloud my mind and those tend to be negative. Tendency towards pessimism doesn’t help either. Change? I can handle change, Just don’t want to end up in places that I don’t want to go