Better music?

[Newbie2]

the holy father is asking us quite clearly to bring back sacred polyphony and gregorian chant, and to ditch the gituars and drums.

Not exactly…

Not what the teaching states. The church teaching states that “all things being equal” gregorian chant is to be given pride of place.

Yep.

I have no problem with guitars or drums – any instrument can be used to praise God. The piano wasn’t considered suitable when it started appearing in Catholic Churches. (Neither was polyphony, for that matter.)

I’ve just discovered an Eastern Catholic Church in my area (no Gather, no OCP, no GIA), and I go there when I grow weary of Protestant music worship in my parish. Plus, they sing almost the entire time.

“Protestant style” meaning ??? Lyrics?

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[OraLabora]

Is that what folks at Mass were called pre-VII – spectators? And if folks don’t sing today (or clap along with the hymns), are they spectators too?

I can tell you from my experience that indeed there are people at Mass who are mere spectators, and that has always existed.

Perhaps I came across as overly generalizing… English is not my first language and I work in French every day so sometimes my choice of words can be off when I swing back and forth between languages, but in the pre-Vatican II days opportunities for active participation were limited. By that I mean singing and saying the responses. I am sure there were and continue to be devout folks who follow along silently. But that does not foster a culture of active participation.

 

[I_Thirst]

I can tell you from my experience that indeed there are people at Mass who are mere spectators, and that has always existed.

Perhaps I came across as overly generalizing… English is not my first language and I work in French every day so sometimes my choice of words can be off when I swing back and forth between languages, but in the pre-Vatican II days opportunities for active participation were limited. By that I mean singing and saying the responses. I am sure there were and continue to be devout folks who follow along silently. But that does not foster a culture of active participation.

I think your communication skills are just fine.

But the idea of active participation is intriguing. Have you noticed that it takes a higher level of participation to be silent in room full of people than it does to be noisy?

Why do you think silence is not active participation?

For example, there is active and passive listening to music. When one actively listens to music, one will often sit very still and concentrate. When one passively listens to music, one will often move around (such shopping, cleaning, etc) or just do something else while the music plays.

I agree that there can be active and passive participation at Mass, but I don’t think that it is absolutely defined by whether or not one sings hymns.

 

[OraLabora]

I think your communication skills are just fine.

But the idea of active participation is intriguing. Have you noticed that it takes a higher level of participation to be silent in room full of people than it does to be noisy?

Why do you think silence is not active participation?

For example, there is active and passive listening to music. When one actively listens to music, one will often sit very still and concentrate. When one passively listens to music, one will often move around (such shopping, cleaning, etc) or just do something else while the music plays.

I agree that there can be active and passive participation at Mass, but I don’t think that it is absolutely defined by whether or not one sings hymns.

Thing is that in the OF Mass, there’s at least the opportunity. One can be silent if one wants to or one can participate. In the EF, unless it’s a dialogue Mass, you’re going to be silent if you’re in the pews.

It could be that I just love to sing, after all I sing in a Gregorian schola. But for singing to work for me it has to be singable. When I go to a parish with un-singable hymns, I don’t sing, though I do participate in the responses.

I have nothing against silence, after all I am a Benedictine oblate! Our OF Mass makes good use of sacred silence before Mass, after each reading and after communion, even though the faithful can participate in the responses, which are all sung by the way.

There are times though when I do shut up and listen only. But I wouldn’t want to always be forced into passive participation all the time. To me that takes away the dimension of community and dialogue between God and His people.

Anyway my point was that the EF did not foster a culture of singing in the laity. The singing was for the most part reserved to choirs and scholas, and even the responses were typically only sung by the choir. A few hundred years of this no doubt worked on our cultural genetics and made us non-singers!

 

[I_Thirst]

Thing is that in the OF Mass, there’s at least the opportunity. One can be silent if one wants to or one can participate. In the EF, unless it’s a dialogue Mass, you’re going to be silent if you’re in the pews.

It could be that I just love to sing, after all I sing in a Gregorian schola. But for singing to work for me it has to be singable. When I go to a parish with un-singable hymns, I don’t sing, though I do participate in the responses.

I have nothing against silence, after all I am a Benedictine oblate! Our OF Mass makes good use of sacred silence before Mass, after each reading and after communion, even though the faithful can participate in the responses, which are all sung by the way.

There are times though when I do shut up and listen only. But I wouldn’t want to always be forced into passive participation all the time. To me that takes away the dimension of community and dialogue between God and His people.

Anyway my point was that the EF did not foster a culture of singing in the laity. The singing was for the most part reserved to choirs and scholas, and even the responses were typically only sung by the choir. A few hundred years of this no doubt worked on our cultural genetics and made us non-singers!

Well, I hear what you’re saying – but I don’t agree that silence is passive participation at Mass.

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I love singing too – and I’ve led a schola cantorum in my parish (our parish doesn’t “allow” chant so we were basically a devotional group). I find that the hymns we use in the OF are good tunes, but they (in general) just don’t fit Catholic liturgy. I’ve been to OF where Gregrorian chant was used (both as a chanter and in the pews) and I thought it was perfect, but chant is so rare in most of the parishes around my area.

On the other hand, I’ve attended Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic Church and attended Vespers at an Orthodox Church and I’ve noticed that the music is very singable (and a capella). In the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy, they sing almost the entire time, except for the homily. Our Eastern Catholic & Eastern Christian brothers and sisters have maintained a wonderfully rich liturgical music that involves everyone singing constantly. It seems to me that they have found a balance in singable music that is reverent, joyful, participatory, and appropriate. I can’t say that for the majority of what I’ve heard coming out most of the hymnals in my neck of the woods at Roman Catholic Churches.

 

[Alan55]

I’ve had great worship experiences both with contemporary christian music (CCM) in evangelical/charismatic churches and with very traditional Catholic services. They tend to be a different sorts of experience, but both can be deep, God-filled experiences. It depends a bit on the quality of the musical experience (lousy music makes for a lousy worship experience, in my experience) and one’s subjective dispositions (if you desire to encounter God and are prepared to do so, your worship experience will be deeper and richer, by and large). Therefore, I’d say that quality musical performance on the part of the musicians/choir matters, and catechesis also matters.

Personally, I’m not a musician. I sing, but my strength is on the catechesis side. I think that Catholics could stand to learn more about worship. Not just rubrics, but how to encounter God together through music and the liturgy, or better stated, how God desires to encounter us. People have a pretty fuzzy notion about personal prayer, and they have an even fuzzier notion about corporate prayer. You can’t pray for them, but you can teach the well-disposed what is possible for them if they enter into the experience with openness and faith. I’ve heard teaching like that that set my heart of fire.