Better to be a cafeteria Catholic or Atheist?

[Iamnotafraid]

**Revelation 3;16

So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.**

I am a non-believer, a fallen away Christian and generally an Atheist. Sometimes, I may approach agnosticism, but most days, I hold a complete non-belief in any God.

I know a lot of people who say they’re Christians, even some Catholics. They don’t go to Church, they don’t seem to know anything about their religion and I think they go to Church once or twice a year.

I think everyone is well aware of the statistics, at least in Canada, that only 25% of believers go to Church every week.

I know a few atheists, me included, that think about religious themes quite often. It’s just we don’t believe, vs the apparent faithful, who never think about religion.

**1) Is it better to be a cold Atheist, or a lukewarm cafeteria Catholic who goes to Church once a year and rarely thinks about their faith or their God?

1a) You know who I’m talking about, those who identify as Catholics, but use artificial birth control, are pro-choice, maybe they’re divorced and re-married ( no anullment), they don’t believe in the real presence, but they show up once a year at Xmas and partake in the eucharist etc…**

Again, I think everyone knows that there are a lot of " cafeteria Catholics" who are exactly what I have written above.

Obviously, please apply the Revelation scripture in the spirit of your response.

 

[Nita]

Personally, I wouldn’t want to be either one when I come face to face with Our Lord.

Psychologically, even in our earthly life, I can’t fathom how one can have any deep interior experience of joy, peace, security, etc. without a belief and trust in God. I think the word you used - “cold” - kind of says it.

As to lukewarm Catholics/Christians, Jesus has some very frightening words in speaking of them. So I wouldn’t consider that a healthy option either!!

Revelations 3:15-16 "I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

I haven’t a clue as to which would be better. Each person is different, their circumstances, emotional state, … Only God can make that judgement.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

I think it’s better to be Atheist. At least, you’re not lying to anyone.

Revelation 3;16: So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[SedesDomi]

The important thing is to know what you believe, and act on that basis.

If doing so means that you believe and act as an atheist, then I’m sure God will welcome you home, as a “good and faithful servant” (Matthew 25:23).

 

[yellowbird]

The important thing is to know what you believe, and act on that basis.

If doing so means that you believe and act as an atheist, then I’m sure God will welcome you home, as a “good and faithful servant” (Matthew 25:23).

Say what?

 

[The_Fool]

Say what?

I think the assumption is the atheist in question is living a morally unobjectionable life and honestly believes what they believe.

 

[August_Ambrose]

I think the assumption is the atheist in question is living a morally unobjectionable life and honestly believes what they believe.

We do have amoral people in our midst, they find it the only way to live, in peace, happy human beings. How they can live that way with out a burning love For God is a mysetry
Caferteria Catholics are those who live their lives in total love of God, but aren’t unable to pray or study and give or seerve as you do. We are just doing our best and not close to what you are doing. We can’t be as holy, though we do try, and are disappointed when we fail. I know Jesus loves me and that is all I need to know. I use the simple things the church has given me, the rosary, novena, chaplet of divine mercy, I try, but am not close to serving or knowing God , like the Pope!

 

[yellowbird]

I think the assumption is the atheist in question is living a morally unobjectionable life and honestly believes what they believe.

Gosh, I wouldn’t want to bank on that though. If I had the opportunity to talk to the atheist, I would urge him to reconsider because not only is his life apart from God much more difficult, (God is my strength and my refuge) but his odds of making it to heaven are a long shot at best. Possible yes, but a long shot acording to my Priest.

 

[thistle]

The important thing is to know what you believe, and act on that basis.

If doing so means that you believe and act as an atheist, then I’m sure God will welcome you home, as a “good and faithful servant” (Matthew 25:23).

God will welcome anyone home to the Catholic Church. An atheist by definition rejects that God even exists and sticking to such a belief unchanging to death will result in atheists going to Hell.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

God will welcome anyone home to the Catholic Church. An atheist by definition rejects that God even exists and sticking to such a belief unchanging to death will result in atheists going to Hell.

Do you think that God prefers lukewarm Christians or honest Atheists who cannot accept Christianity, or any religious beliefs?

(You know who I’m talking about, the ones who say they believe in God, go to Church once a year and think about God once a year at Christmas and at funerals, but that’s about it. )

 

[Nita]

Caferteria Catholics are those who live their lives in total love of God, but aren’t unable to pray or study and give or seerve as you do. We are just doing our best and not close to what you are doing. We can’t be as holy, though we do try, and are disappointed when we fail. I know Jesus loves me and that is all I need to know. I use the simple things the church has given me, the rosary, novena, chaplet of divine mercy, I try, but am not close to serving or knowing God , like the Pope!

Just want to clear up your understanding of what is meant by the expression “cafeteria Catholic”.

A cateteria Catholic is a member of the Catholic Church who thinks they can determine for themselves which of the Catholic doctrines are true and which are not. They also think it’s okay for them to decide which Catholic regulations they should obey and which they can ignore. In other words, they can pick and choose based on their own thinking (just like someone does in a food cafeteria - hence the term “cafeteria”),

Note that a cafeteria Catholic is not someone who is ignorant of Church teachings and regulations. In fact, it is just the opposite. Only if one knows what the Church teaches is one able to make a choice to accept or reject it.

Doing or believing something contrary to Church teaching where one is ignorant of the teaching, is something else.

From your post, you don’t sound anything at all like a cafeteria Catholic to me.

God bless,
Nita

 

[thistle]

Do you think that God prefers lukewarm Christians or honest Atheists who cannot accept Christianity, or any religious beliefs?

(You know who I’m talking about, the ones who say they believe in God, go to Church once a year and think about God once a year at Christmas and at funerals, but that’s about it. )

A Catholic in a state of mortal sin (if they die in that state) is the same as an atheist, Buddhist, etc. They all have rejected God and will go to Hell.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

A Catholic in a state of mortal sin (if they die in that state) is the same as an atheist, Buddhist, etc. They all have rejected God and will go to Hell.

What do you believe is meant by Revelation 3:16? It sounds like cold and lukewarm are equal in your opinion.

Yet the verse, clearly makes a distinction.

I also have to point out, with your comment that Buddhists are damned to hell, that you actually have a non-Catholic view of salvation.

I’m curious to know if you’ve co-opted this salvation belief from fundamentalist Protestantism, because you like the idea, or if it is a theology that you created on your own, without considering what it is that the Catholic Church teaches?

 

[thistle]

What do you believe is meant by Revelation 3:16? It sounds like cold and lukewarm are equal in your opinion.

Yet the verse, clearly makes a distinction.

I also have to point out, with your comment that Buddhists are damned to hell, that you actually have a non-Catholic view of salvation.

I’m curious to know if you’ve co-opted this salvation belief from fundamentalist Protestantism, because you like the idea, or if it is a theology that you created on your own, without considering what it is that the Catholic Church teaches?

I’m a Catholic and know what the Church teaches.
John Paul II called Buddhism a form of atheism as they are a religion without God.
As they don’t believe in God they condemn themselves.

Buddhists, atheists etc cannot fall under “invincible ignorance” because they certainly have heard about Christ and have the opportunity to explore further.

As for which is worse, cold or lukewarm, its like asking if theft is a worse sin than murder. Of course one is worse than the other but at the end of the day if both sinners die unrepentent then they go to Hell.

 

[porthos11]

Let me rephrase the question: is it better to drink cyanide or insecticide?

 

[Iamnotafraid]

Let me rephrase the question: is it better to drink cyanide or insecticide?

Then why does Bible clearly indicate that it is better to be hot or cold, than it is to be lukewarm? I’m not personally saying one is better than the other, the Bible is.

I’m just trying to refocus my thread.

My question, for whatever reason, isn’t really being addressed.

**Is it better to be a cold atheist, a white hot devout Buddhist or a lukewarm Christian?

Please take into consideration, Revelation 3:16, when providing an answer.**

Thanks

 

[Nita]

Then why does Bible clearly indicate that it is better to be hot or cold, than it is to be lukewarm? I’m not personally saying one is better than the other, the Bible is.

I’m just trying to refocus my thread.

My question, for whatever reason, isn’t really being addressed.

**Is it better to be a cold atheist, a white hot devout Buddhist or a lukewarm Christian?

Please take into consideration, Revelation 3:16, when providing an answer.**

Thanks

“Lukewarm” indicates a person who isn’t interested enough in the topic to even make a decision one way or the other. They just don’t consider it important enough to think about (let alone discuss or study it).
No firm beliefs or convictions one way or the other - just not interested.
It is extremely difficult to break through such indifference.

“Cold” on the other hand usually means someone who is interested in the topic. They do think about it, read about it, talk about it. They consider it an important issue - that it’s important to learn the truth about the it. The difference between a “hot” person (theist) and a “cold” person (atheist) rests in the conclusion they arrived at.

“Lukewarm” mentality is like a sealed up doorway.
“Cold” mentality is like a doorway with it’s open door - it’s just open the wrong direction. But at least it’s open so someone can get in and work on it
(That’s probably a poor analogy, but the best I can come up with at the moment. ).

**One very important point - the words in the Revelation passage are spoken about those who are still alive. **God in a sense is saying that He finds it easier to reveal Himself and His truths to those whose minds are open to the topic (hot or cold) than to those who aren’t interested (lukewarm).
Once the “cold” and “lukewarm” are dead (if they don’t change prior to death), I don’t know if there is any difference. Probably not - but that’s for God to judge, not me.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

“Lukewarm” indicates a person who isn’t interested enough in the topic to even make a decision one way or the other

I don’t buy that one, for the simple fact that I would argue that the once a year Church attenders, who still claim to believe in God, would very much be described as lukewarm.

If those once a year Christians aren’t lukewarm and do believe in God, and still profess to believe everything in the Apostles creed, then what would they be called?

They have decided, they’re believers, but they fall well short of what is expected and demanded of them.

I call them lukewarm and I admit, they’re weak and ’ going through the motions’ faith is more of a puzzle to me, than a devout believers faith.

Now that I’ve cleared that up, isn’t that who the Bible is describing as Lukewarm, but the lazy or uninterested believer?

 

[Nita]

I don’t buy that one, for the simple fact that I would argue that the once a year Church attenders, who still claim to believe in God, would very much be described as lukewarm.

If those once a year Christians aren’t lukewarm and do believe in God, and still profess to believe everything in the Apostles creed, then what would they be called?

They have decided, they’re believers, but they fall well short of what is expected and demanded of them.

I call them lukewarm and I admit, they’re weak and ’ going through the motions’ faith is more of a puzzle to me, than a devout believers faith.

Now that I’ve cleared that up, isn’t that who the Bible is describing as Lukewarm, but the lazy or uninterested believer?

I had the following as part of my previous post at first, and then eliminated it:
Hot, cold and lukewarm apply in more than one area.
You can have people who are indifferent about the existence of God - they would be lukewarm. There can be lukewarm atheists, agnostics, and theists.
You can have people who are indifferent about their Catholic faith - they would be lukewarm.
You can have people who are indifferent about football…

It is the attitude of indifference/lukewarmness (in important areas) that is offensive to God.

As to the letter in Revelations, it was written to a specific Catholic Church so it is being addressed specifically to lukewarm Catholics. But the message isn’t meant for only them; it is a universal truth for everyone and has been included in the canon of Scripture. God doesn’t restrict the reading of Scripture and its message to believers only. His message is for all. (Mt. 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them … teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; …" It is the truth presented to all who hear/read it.

 

[Nita]

**Is it better to be a cold atheist, a white hot devout Buddhist or a lukewarm Christian?

Please take into consideration, Revelation 3:16, when providing an answer.**

Thanks

You’re making the wrong comparisons if you wish to apply the Rev. 3:16 passage. If you want to apply it to atheists, Buddhists and Christians, it requires 3 separate questions. The proper way would be to ask:

Is it better to be a cold atheist, a white hot atheist, or a lukewarm atheist?
Is it better to be a cold Buddhist, a white hot Buddhist, or a lukewarm Buddhist?
Is it better to be a cold Christian, a white hot Christian, or a lukewarm Christian?

The message of Rev. 3:16 is that God prefers a hot or cold attitude to a lukewarm one.
Again, we’re talking about while the person is still alive on earth.