Better to exist unhappily than not exist at all?

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LovePatience

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Love wants the best for its beloved. God knows all and knows some will rebel. So a God that creates souls knowing that some will rebel must think it is better for rebellious souls to exist than for them not to have ever existed.

Why is it better for Satan to exist and be unhappy than to not exist at all (other than showing the glory of God through demonstrating the perfection of God’s justice)? It seems good for God for Satan to demonstrate the perfection of God’s justice. But how is it good for Satan to exist for this reason?

What is so great about existence?
 
I would rather exist miserable then not exist at all. Even if I am unhappy at least I am aware. Even if I am unhappy at least I can learn and grow.

Satan is a different situation and I believe not a good example or model to hold up beside humans. We are different then he. Infinitely so.

He had his choice. His choice was fully informed. He chose the misery he now exists in. He is not some poor suffering lamb who was led to the slaughter by the one who created him.

It seems to me our God is a God who values freedom. A God who knows what choices we will make, good and bad, and yet lets us make those choices. Clearly He feels to have existed miserably is better then to not have existed at all and I have to trust that decision.

He knows more then I ever will. So I have to trust that this existence is better then none.
 
Well, demons and dammned human souls cannot become happy so I see LovePatience’s point. I know I would rather not excist than go to Hell. How exactly is an excistence in Hell better than no excistence at all? Jeus said of Judas, whom He knew was going to Hell that it would have been better if he had never been born.
 
Well, demons and dammned human souls cannot become happy so I see LovePatience’s point. I know I would rather not excist than go to Hell. How exactly is an excistence in Hell better than no excistence at all? Jeus said of Judas, whom He knew was going to Hell that it would have been better if he had never been born.
Good point.

Vexing question!
 
Well, demons and dammned human souls cannot become happy so I see LovePatience’s point. I know I would rather not excist than go to Hell. How exactly is an excistence in Hell better than no excistence at all? Jeus said of Judas, whom He knew was going to Hell that it would have been better if he had never been born.
Perhaps with Judas, Jesus meant that it would have been better if he had been born stillborn, then he would have gone to a place somewhat like limbo if it exists.
 
Well, demons and dammned human souls cannot become happy so I see LovePatience’s point. I know I would rather not excist than go to Hell. How exactly is an excistence in Hell better than no excistence at all? Jeus said of Judas, whom He knew was going to Hell that it would have been better if he had never been born.
There is actually a nuance in the Scripture verse which is important. The term is “born”. It would have been better for Judas to have died in his mother’s womb… it doesn’t necessarily say it is better for Judas never to have existed. That distinction is actually very important.

It is better to exist in Hell than not to exist at all. Existence is a good in an of itself and is always and everywhere preferrable to its opposite, i.e. non-existence, as least as far as the existing thing is concerned. (There are definition some people in this world I wish didn’t exist.)

This is at least true of intellectual beings. I haven’t really considered whether it would be true of sentient non-intelligent beings.
 
Love wants the best for its beloved. God knows all and knows some will rebel. So a God that creates souls knowing that some will rebel must think it is better for rebellious souls to exist than for them not to have ever existed.

Why is it better for Satan to exist and be unhappy than to not exist at all (other than showing the glory of God through demonstrating the perfection of God’s justice)? It seems good for God for Satan to demonstrate the perfection of God’s justice. But how is it good for Satan to exist for this reason?

What is so great about existence?
‘Existence’ is, in fact, the original the sin of humanity, we are bound to suffer because of “the sin of existing” (Satre). Marius Victorius describes God as non-existent. Heaven is the same as being released from existence, back to the eternal blessed peace of non-existence.

As Scripture says, “The dead are happier than the living. But happier yet is he who has never been born.” (Ecclesiastes)
 
What if Satan would rather exist than not exist?

What if Satan is just fine with being miserable?

Why is everyone pleading for demons and damned souls as if they’re victims?

What if misery loves company?

What if we could build a factory and make misery?
 
‘Existence’ is, in fact, the original the sin of humanity, we are bound to suffer because of “the sin of existing” (Satre). Marius Victorius describes God as non-existent. Heaven is the same as being released from existence, back to the eternal blessed peace of non-existence.

As Scripture says, “The dead are happier than the living. But happier yet is he who has never been born.” (Ecclesiastes)
What?! I have never heard a more anti-Christian statement in my life. God is Existence Itself (de fide teaching of the Church). Our existence is a free gift from God (de fide). Heaven is in fact the perception of the Beatific Vision, where we can behold God in His Essence, and as such is man’s perfection and highest form of existence.

Don’t try to proof-text Ecclesiastes. There is a lot of poetic license.
 
What?! I have never heard a more anti-Christian statement in my life. God is Existence Itself (de fide teaching of the Church). Our existence is a free gift from God (de fide). Heaven is in fact the perception of the Beatific Vision, where we can behold God in His Essence, and as such is man’s perfection and highest form of existence.

Don’t try to proof-text Ecclesiastes. There is a lot of poetic license.
Well, since you are a theologian- talking Thomistically, God’s existence is only analogically like our ‘existence’. So when we say God exists, what is meant is only analogically comparable to the sense in which ‘existence’ is being used in the present discussion (which is refering to normal, mundane existence).

I refer you again to Marius Victorinus, who said that God is non-existent. Also, Kierkegaard said that “God does not exist”. Also Blessed Jacapone da Todi said “the name of Heaven is non-existence.”

If God’s EXISTENCE is different from our existence, it is true to say that in Heaven we cease to exist, and instead we EXIST (which here means something different, and what ever is different from existence [in the mundane sense] is non-existence [in the mundane sense]).

Since the discussion deals with existence in the ‘normal’ sense, my comment is, I believe, perfectly orthodox.

Or, do you understand existence to be a predicate applied univo**cally to God and to creation?
 
Here’s a few thoughts. God created a finite number of souls that were formed in his own image, immortal such as himself. God knows what will happen to each soul and that they can or cannot reject him. This is the same thing that is true of God. God also has the capacity to reject himself, and that is why Satan tempted Christ - to get him to reject himself, commit suicide.

Has anyone read the Problem of Hell by Kvanvig?
Jonathan L. Kvanvig
Summary: The doctrine of hell presents the most intractable version of the problem of evil, for though it might be argued that ordinary pain and evil can somehow be compensated for by the course of future experience, the pain and suffering of hell leads nowhere. This work develops an understanding of hell that is common to a broad variety of religious perspectives, and argues that the usual understandings of hell are incapable of solving the problem of hell. Kvanvig first argues that the traditional understanding of hell found in Christianity suffers from moral and epistemological inadequacies. Historically, these shortcomings lead to alternatives to the traditional doctrine of hell, such as universalism, annihilationism, or the second chance doctrine. Kvanvig shows, however, that the typical alternatives to the traditional understanding are inadequate as well. He argues that both the traditional understanding and the typical alternatives fail to solve the problem of hell because they share the common flaw of being constructed on a retributive model of hell. Kvanvig then develops a philosophical account of hell which does not depend on a retributive model and argues that it is adequate on both philosophical and theological grounds…
Amazon.com reader’s review…
This is an impressive book on the nature of hell. Kvanvig argues that a strong retributivist view of hell is false, and argues instead for an issuant conception of hell, where hell exists because of God’s love for us. Kvanvig’s basic view is that God values our freedom, and while God could force those who reject God to be in heaven, God would have to violate their freedom to do so. Instead, hell exists for those whose characters are such that they’ve chosen not to be with God.
So God allowed hell, not created it. God hadn’t thought of Hell because God didn’t want a single soul to reject him. Each and every soul that goes to Hell chooses it as an act of suicide, which makes less sense in the afterlife (you had the knowing choice to go to God and be happy suffering Purgatory for your sins but committing to be a perfect soul) as it does on Earth (hope might always return). Yet, we would generally say that it is better that a person on Earth who kills themself has existed even though this person thinks otherwise. In the same way, a person who is in Hell is still an immortal soul, beautiful, and wonderful so there existence is justified even if they are unhappy, and since they chose to be unhappy then love demands that they not be forced to be happy and justice demands that they suffer since they are emating hatred of others that would cause them to suffer so they must suffer themselves - otherwise, how could you say that you loved someone and not punish the people who harm them?..

Interview with an Exorcist by Fr. Gabriel Amorth, Vatican’s Chief Exorcist.
One day Father Candido was expelling a demon. Toward the end of the exorcism, he turned to the evil spirit and sarcastically told him, “Get out of here. The Lord has already prepared a nice, well-heated house for you!” At this, the demon answered, “You do not know anything! It wasn’t he [God] who made hell. It was us. He had not even thought about it.” Similarly, on another occasion, while I was questioning a demon to know whether he had contributed to the creation of hell, I received this answer: “All of us cooperated.”
Christ’s statement in St. Bridget of Sweden in Revelations.
Book 5: Interrogation II, #3
The Judge answered: ”Friend, human pride is so long endured as to exalt humility and show forth my goodness. And since pride was not created by me but invented by the devil, it must be shunned, because it leads to hell. But humility must be kept, because it leads to heaven. I, God, taught this by my word and example.”
 
People who go to Hell love hate more than they hate suffering so being in Hell is uniting them with their true love.
 
Well, since you are a theologian- talking Thomistically, God’s existence is only analogically like our ‘existence’. So when we say God exists, what is meant is only analogically comparable to the sense in which ‘existence’ is being used in the present discussion (which is refering to normal, mundane existence).
Analogically, yes, insofar as God is Existence Itself and we merely participate or “have” existence. For created beings, existence is something other than their essense, but for God existence is His Essence. I refer you to St. Thomas’s De Ente et Essentia, starting at section 89.
I refer you again to Marius Victorinus, who said that God is non-existent. Also, Kierkegaard said that “God does not exist”. Also Blessed Jacapone da Todi said “the name of Heaven is non-existence.”
Victorinus is no authority on the matter, and it seems fairly clear and obvious that the Church has categorically rejected his Neo-Platonist-inspired position. Neither is Kierkegaard an authority. I am not very familiar with Bl. Jacopone, but I do know that the Church has explicitly rejected the notion of Heaven as non-existence.
If God’s EXISTENCE is different from our existence, it is true to say that in Heaven we cease to exist, and instead we EXIST (which here means something different, and what ever is different from existence [in the mundane sense] is non-existence [in the mundane sense]).
There are a couple of problems here. For one thing, you seem to be claiming that if one concede’s that in talking about God’s Existence and our own existence we use the term existence analogically someone implies that they are opposing terms. The terms are very much related (we are speaking analogically, not equivocally afterall), and the analogical relationship is extremely close.

Secondly, there seems to be an implicit assumption on your part that when we go to Heaven, we forfeit our own act of existence. I don’t know where that notion comes from, but it is not correct. We retain our independent existence. While being united with God in a very real way, we do not “merge” into Him and lose our distinction. Our souls are immortal and shall retain their existence (not used analogically) for all time.
Since the discussion deals with existence in the ‘normal’ sense, my comment is, I believe, perfectly orthodox.
There is no sense - according to any definition of existence - in which your statement would not be heretical and explicitly contrary to the *de fide *teaching of the Church. I don’t mean to be overly blunt, but I will admit that I am truly astonished.
 
… God … feels to have existed miserably is better then to not have existed at all and I have to trust that decision.
Could you elaborate on your understanding of God’s "feel"ing?

Also could there be any number of beings that did not exist because God decided otherwise?
 
There are a couple of problems here. For one thing, you seem to be claiming that if one concede’s that in talking about God’s Existence and our own existence we use the term existence analogically someone implies that they are opposing terms. The terms are very much related (we are speaking analogically, not equivocally afterall), and the analogical relationship is extremely close.

Secondly, there seems to be an implicit assumption on your part that when we go to Heaven, we forfeit our own act of existence. I don’t know where that notion comes from, but it is not correct. We retain our independent existence. While being united with God in a very real way, we do not “merge” into Him and lose our distinction. Our souls are immortal and shall retain their existence (not used analogically) for all time.
Surely, the idea of the cessation or annihilation of the self in union with God’s ‘exis-]/-]tence’ quite an orthodox and traditional one- cf. St. John of the Cross. Any remaining selfhood is a separation from the Godhead. Hence Christ tells us to “deny thyself”.

It is an interesting point about the idea of analogy and opposition. I would argue that whatever is not existence (in a mundane sense) is non-existence (in a mundane sense), or at least beyond existence. I refer you to Levinas’ essay, “Other than being, or beyond essence.”

Without wanting to be critical of your ideas (which quite a few people share), the notion of ‘Heaven’ in which we still exist as ourselves seems to spring from remants of attachment to self, the very thing which Christ (and Buddha) calls us to renounce.
 
Surely, the idea of the cessation or annihilation of the self in union with God’s ‘exis-]/-]tence’ quite an orthodox and traditional one- cf. St. John of the Cross. Any remaining selfhood is a separation from the Godhead. Hence Christ tells us to “deny thyself”.
Actually the notion of annihilation has always been diametrically opposed to the Christian message. It is neither orthodox nor traditional. It fundamentally denies the Resurrection of the Body! How can you have your own individual body without having an individual act of existence? How can you pray to saints who no longer exist?! Think of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man! How is the Final Judgment supposed to work? Can you be judged if you do not exist? How about the angels in Heaven right now?

“Deny thyself” means deny your own will, and live in conformity with the Divine plan, there was never any suggestion it was meant in a Buddhist sense.
It is an interesting point about the idea of analogy and opposition. I would argue that whatever is not existence (in a mundane sense) is non-existence (in a mundane sense), or at least beyond existence. I refer you to Levinas’ essay, “Other than being, or beyond essence.”
I find it fascinating the number of non-Catholic philosophers you keep trying to bring in to support or give proper credit to your argument here. You re-statement of the Pre-Socratic error is probably not helping to clarify things at all. You essentially just said “being is, non-being is not” which while it sounds obvious, actually does not give proper footing to potentiality, which is at the heart of the Aristotelean contribution. Even a Platonic theory of participation would get you closer to the truth. If fact, we usually speak of existence in terms of participation, so in fact, maybe that is the most help terminology. God is existence, and we participate in existence. Here we use “existence” univocally.
Without wanting to be critical of your ideas (which quite a few people share), the notion of ‘Heaven’ in which we still exist as ourselves seems to spring from remants of attachment to self, the very thing which Christ (and Buddha) calls us to renounce.
Christ was focused on the gift of self, not the annihilation of self. In regards to Buddha, however, you are entirely correct. The doctrine which you are representing is entirely Buddhist (and not Christian at all).
 
What about Sirach, who wrote: “Death is better than a wretched existence, and eternal rest is better than chronic illness”.

And some more philosophers:
Albert Camus, “salvation is the right to stop existing once and for all”.
Schopenhaur said “that non-existence was preferable to existence in any form.”

I think we may define existence in the ‘normal’ sense it means being a ‘thing’ in the Universe (I agree that this is a pretty limited definition, but it is how it is generally used).
Since God is not a ‘thing’, nor is He in the Universe, it is a reasonable to say that God, in the ‘normal’ sense of the word, does not exist. It is also fair to say, again using the NORMAL sense of the word, that Heaven is non-existence. In speaking of God and Heaven, we have to get beyond the limits of ontology, whose relevance is limited to THIS Universe.

And as for the self remaining in Heaven, what is self but individuation, self-will, in other words, the source of all sin and multiplicity?
 
Interesting that you did not address what I believe was my primary evidence, i.e. the saints, angels, and the resurrection of the body, which your theory has to deny of necessity, yet are all core tenets of the Christian message.

The Sirach quote is talking about Heaven being better than a miserable existence on earth. How exactly is that supposed to support you theory?

In my last post, I expressed surprise that you were trying to quote non-Catholic modern philosophers. They have seen the Church’s doctrine and have rejected it in some degree. Bringing Camus and Schopenhauer only further prove that your idea is not a Catholic one.
I think we may define existence in the ‘normal’ sense it means being a ‘thing’ in the Universe (I agree that this is a pretty limited definition, but it is how it is generally used).
How about we just go to a standard dictionary, “the state or fact of having actual being”. You cannot introduce “thing” into the definition, because “thing” refers only to substance and would exclude the other 9 categories of Aristotelean being. Whiteness exists, but it is not a “thing”. There is also no need to throw in “in the universe”.
Since God is not a ‘thing’, nor is He in the Universe, it is a reasonable to say that God, in the ‘normal’ sense of the word, does not exist. It is also fair to say, again using the NORMAL sense of the word, that Heaven is non-existence. In speaking of God and Heaven, we have to get beyond the limits of ontology, whose relevance is limited to THIS Universe.
God may not be a “thing” insofar as His Existence and his Essence are the same thing implying God cannot fit into or be a genus, and hence God cannot rightly be considered a “substance”. However, going by the “usual” meaning of existence, which is what a dictionary provides, dictionaries are afterall, based on “common usage”, God most certainly exists. He has actual being, in fact He IS actual Being.

The philosophy of ontology was partly created to talk about God and was never intended to be strictly limited to this material world. Its relevance is not limited, though its abilities to penetrate every mystery of the Divine Nature may be.
And as for the self remaining in Heaven, what is self but individuation, self-will, in other words, the source of all sin and multiplicity?
Individuation is the source of all sin? I bet you have a hard time explaining why God made man to be individual then. Actually, that is perhaps the heart of the matter. You have no choice but to calls God’s creation evil since God is the author of individuation. Man did not make himself individual, he was made that way by God, and God called it good. In fact, the story of creation is all about individuation. To deny the goodness of individuation is to be daulist, and eventually you have to deny the goodness of matter itself, which is partly what Buddhism does.

The bottom line is, I understand this view is currently and has historically been held by many, but it has always been condemned by the Catholic Church at every step. I am thus not surprised to find someone who holds the view, but am shocked to find someone who claims it is consistent with Catholicism.
 
Interesting that you did not address what I believe was my primary evidence, i.e. the saints, angels, and the resurrection of the body, which your theory has to deny of necessity, yet are all core tenets of the Christian message.

The Sirach quote is talking about Heaven being better than a miserable existence on earth. How exactly is that supposed to support you theory?

In my last post, I expressed surprise that you were trying to quote non-Catholic modern philosophers. They have seen the Church’s doctrine and have rejected it in some degree. Bringing Camus and Schopenhauer only further prove that your idea is not a Catholic one.

How about we just go to a standard dictionary, “the state or fact of having actual being”. You cannot introduce “thing” into the definition, because “thing” refers only to substance and would exclude the other 9 categories of Aristotelean being. Whiteness exists, but it is not a “thing”. There is also no need to throw in “in the universe”.

God may not be a “thing” insofar as His Existence and his Essence are the same thing implying God cannot fit into or be a genus, and hence God cannot rightly be considered a “substance”. However, going by the “usual” meaning of existence, which is what a dictionary provides, dictionaries are afterall, based on “common usage”, God most certainly exists. He has actual being, in fact He IS actual Being.

The philosophy of ontology was partly created to talk about God and was never intended to be strictly limited to this material world. Its relevance is not limited, though its abilities to penetrate every mystery of the Divine Nature may be.

Individuation is the source of all sin? I bet you have a hard time explaining why God made man to be individual then. Actually, that is perhaps the heart of the matter. You have no choice but to calls God’s creation evil since God is the author of individuation. Man did not make himself individual, he was made that way by God, and God called it good. In fact, the story of creation is all about individuation. To deny the goodness of individuation is to be daulist, and eventually you have to deny the goodness of matter itself, which is partly what Buddhism does.

The bottom line is, I understand this view is currently and has historically been held by many, but it has always been condemned by the Catholic Church at every step. I am thus not surprised to find someone who holds the view, but am shocked to find someone who claims it is consistent with Catholicism.
To define ‘existing’ as the state of having ‘being’ is circular. Does ‘whiteness’ exist- the answer is both yes and no- it depends upon what one means by ‘exist,’ and how Platonic we choose to be.

The same with God. Does God exist? It depends upon what one means by ‘exist’. If the question is , Does God exist in the same way that the Sun exists, or even whiteness exists, the answer is no.

Isn’t indivuation the first sin, the sin of self-will, manifesting itself in disobedience?
There are plenty of thinkers in the Catholic tradition who deny the goodness of matter, calling it a prison, etc. What some people call ‘creation’ could, perhaps, more justly be called (excuse the neographism) ‘Fall-ation’.

I suggest that there is no single Catholic teaching or policy about these matters- there are quite a few Catholic mystics with strong Buddhist overtones- John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, etc.

What I like about the ‘Catholic’ tradition is that it is very, very large, and the more deeply we look into it, the less simple the answers become.
 
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