Better to Never be Born?

[Azygos]

Your answer is rooted in Scripture.

Romans 9:10-24
10 And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac
11 before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s elective plan might continue,
12 not by works but by his call - she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written: “I loved Jacob but hated Esau.”
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15 For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16 So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22 What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23 This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.

 

[Azygos]

There is no human being that has ever lived whose crimes deserve eternal punishment and torture.

You obviously don’t know the Human heart very well… You also implied that Satan is somehow guilty of sending everyone to hell when it is quite the opposite. It is humans who are guilty of sending themselves into hell. It was a human who choose evil and brought the fall of humanity into the world, just as humans continuously choose evil today. Also evil spirit/devil cannot take away free will and everyone chooses to act freely thus receiving their just reward.

Do all gentiles go to hell? No.
(Please Read, Romans 2:13-16; where the Gentiles will be judged by the Natural Law, which is written in their hearts)

We can’t judge these people because we have no idea of the capacity of their ignorance. We can however have hope that God is the all merciful Judge but on the contrary Jesus (God) says people will end up in hell so it is a fact it will happen, this cannot be misconstrued in any way shape or form because Jesus cannot lie.

Have you ever heard of Invincible Ignorance?

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61

Acts 17:30
30 God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent

~ This verse above shows that God can overlook a person’s ignorance.

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Yes, God can do what he wants. But then I guess what I’m struggling with is how this then fits in with “all loving” and “all just”.

A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

So if a Catholic adult with full knowledge commits a mortal sin and then refuses to repent that particular sin = eternal punishment, no second chances, no chances to repent after having experienced Hell, etc…

Well, if I view this fairly, I think the issue may lie with me. I’m being told that humans freely send themselves to Hell with full knowledge. So I think maybe I simply need to get the concept out of my head that lots of people are in Hell. Because from what I’m hearing I can only begin to comprehend the justness of Hell if it is satisfyingly empty.

Sorry, but I still don’t get why Hell has to be eternal, tormentuous, and torturous. When humans do evil, they’re not choosing Hell. Indeed, they’re putting something before God (though this is largely because we inherit sin, sinful inclinations, and we’re regularly attacked by demons). But choosing Hell?

I’m also struggling with some of the spiritual concepts. Did the demons create Hell? Out of interest, if the answer is affirmative, does that then mean that all angels have the power to form something (like a spiritual realm)? So, we have a Hell which has appeared after the angelic rebellion. How does it then fit in that God separates the sheep from the goats and actually directs certain people to Hell? In fact, He must have them escorted or give them a God-scale shove, because I doubt they’ll just wonder down to Hell…

Another question: Can we repent when we come face-to-face with God? If not, why not? Talk about full knowledge…

Finally, and this is kind of off topic: For me part of the core of what I’m struggling with is that we didn’t ask to be here in this sate. I feel that the decision the angels had to make was a lot clearer and fairer. We inherit filth and we have an inclination towards filth. Now you may reply that all this doesn’t really matter because, whoever is in Hell and however many people there are there, it’s all done 100% freely and 100% full knowledge. But that brings me back to questions about its eternity, second chances, etc…

 

[Azygos]

Yes, God can do what he wants. But then I guess what I’m struggling with is how this then fits in with “all loving” and “all just”.

A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

So if a Catholic adult with full knowledge commits a mortal sin and then refuses to repent that particular sin = eternal punishment, no second chances, no chances to repent after having experienced Hell, etc…

If a person deliberately disobeys his concience and knows he is guilty but does not accept Gods free gift of forgiveness then their is no longer a sacrifice for his sins. He would go to hell because his soul is immortal and it cannot be in the presence of God who is all Good.

I’m being told that humans freely send themselves to Hell with full knowledge. So I think maybe I simply need to get the concept out of my head that lots of people are in Hell. Because from what I’m hearing I can only begin to comprehend the justness of Hell if it is satisfyingly empty.

I think the concept that most people are in hell is a good one (Matt. 7:13-14). If you realize the dangers of Hell then should try to help people and it should kick start your religious zeal. If you love people then help them, save them from hell. Pray, be holy and learn the Faith, so that you can teach them the Truth. As Saint Paul says I become all things so that I might save a few (1 Cor. 9:22).

Another question: Can we repent when we come face-to-face with God?

Yes, its called Purgatory.

Finally, and this is kind of off topic: For me part of the core of what I’m struggling with is that we didn’t ask to be here in this sate.

Would you rather people not exist at all? Who are you to say what is fair and what is not fair. Does the Pot question the Potter? We have limited knowledge of fairness and the very concept of fairness comes from Creator God. I wouldn’t contemplate on this so much, instead try saving people and pray to God to have Mercy. As we say in Church, Lord have Mercy, Christ have Mercy, Lord have Mercy…

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Yes,

Okay, I hadn’t realized that. So even if you die in mortal sin you can still repent after you die?

Would you rather people not exist at all?

Currently I’ve haven’t the experience to arrive at a conclusion. But if I was in Hell, then I think my answer would quite probably be in the affirmative.

Who are you to say what is fair and what is not fair.

Right now I’m not saying (as in asserting) very much at all. I’m pondering and questioning and wondering. I believe that I, a human being, have a right and even a duty to do that.

Does the Pot question the Potter? We have limited knowledge of fairness and the very concept of fairness comes from Creator God. I wouldn’t contemplate on this so much

Looks like it, and I can’t help it.

Okay, I’m sorry, and maybe it is wrong of me to do this, but it’s just the way I am to think and question. I don’t want to live a life of blind, unsupported faith. Of course, there are some things the human mind cannot contemplate. But it is supremely unsatisfying to be told that my concept of fairness is too limited and thus I can’t understand the fairness of Hell and thus I can’t understand what I need to look out for and thus I can’t understand the truth without the facts and thus I can’t relate Catholicism to others because I simply do not have the answers because I cannot comprehend it.

 

[Azygos]

Okay, I hadn’t realized that. So even if you die in mortal sin you can still repent after you die?

For a person to commit a Mortal Sin they have to know they are committing it (Disobeying their conscience, as well). God does not forgive Mortal Sins after you die… If you die in a state of Mortal Sin you go straight to Hell.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

 

[fred_conty]

The Muslims believe that hell eventually ends.
The Catholics believe that purgatory eventually ends.
So from the Catholic viewpoint, Muslims don’t believe in hell, but in purgatory.

IMO, we don’t realize the huge terrible rebellion we do by sinning. In this world we probably will never appreciate the monstrous act against the all good God. In fact, people have said, “well everbody does it, it can’t be all that bad”.

But just think about it for a moment. God is infinite and we are so insignificant in our finiteness, and here we are telling God in sin that we know more than he does, that sin isn’t all that bad. He is so infinitely great and we so infinitely small. A creature telling his creator.

The one reason he forgives is that he knows we don’t really know how terrible sin really is. That is why in this world his mercy is never ending, because we are so dumb. But in the next world, our eyes are opened to what we have really done. So he gives us every oportunity in earth time to still change our mind. But once time ends, so does our chance to change our mind. There is no longer TIME to change our mind, it is gone, and change is no longer possible. And this is difficult for us to understand and accept because it is beyond our earthly experience, and totally different than anything we are familiar with before. And so the condition we find ourselves in when earth time for us is no more, is the condition we find ourselves in when eternity starts for us. That is just the way it is.
And it is very difficult for us to understand and more difficult to accept because we are limited mental beings. And this is where are faith takes control and believes without seeing or for that matter even understanding.

St. Catherine of Siena once said that sinning is loving what God hates, and hateing what God loves. When time runs out, and someone is doing this, what other outcome can there be?

This is one of the reasons we have the church, to tell us things we would never know, for our good now and our good in the future. It is the shepherd which leads us to green pastures, and to tend us so we do not get lost.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Azygos]

The Muslims believe that hell eventually ends.
The Catholics believe that purgatory eventually ends.
So from the Catholic viewpoint, Muslims don’t believe in hell, but in purgatory.

This is not what the Catholic Church teaches or even the commonly held viewpoint. This is your viewpoint and it is false. Better known as a Non Sequitur fallacy (is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises).

 

[fred_conty]

This is not what the Catholic Church teaches or even the commonly held viewpoint. This is your viewpoint and it is false. Better known as a Non Sequitur fallacy (is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises).

Azygos, thank you for responding.

Here is a quote form Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma to address this issue.

“The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory.” (De fide.)

“The purifying fire will NOT CONTINUE after the General Judgment.” (Sent. communis.)

 

[Azygos]

I’m not disagreeing with you concerning purgatory.

I am disagreeing with you concerning your conclusion below.

So from the Catholic viewpoint, Muslims don’t believe in hell, but in purgatory.

Your initial argument for this is fallacious and this whole conclusion is simply false (no offense). Muslims don’t believe in the True Hell or True Purgatory. They believe in a False Hell (A non-existent Hell) and from a Catholic (a true viewpoint) they are heretics, who have been duped to believe in fantasies.

Their version of Hell is simply false besides the fact that they claim that hell is full of women and NOT men, lol.

 

[vera_dicere]

Thanks for all the replies, guys! I just have a few questions…:

(1) If it’s simply down to choice, wouldn’t we say the chances are that the vast majority of humans are in Heaven? Aren’t you/we saying that everyone in Hell chose it with full knowledge and they decided to put it before God? I mean, I can tell you right now that I really don’t want to go to Hell and I’m scared just thinking about the possibility. But then does that simply mean that if I do my best to follow the Church I’m guaranteed to end up in Heaven?
(2) Do the people in Hell wish they could have a second chance?
(3) Do the people in Hell wish they were not in Hell?
(4) Do the people in Hell wish they were in Heaven?
(5) Do the people in Hell really suffer? Or do they simply live rather like it is on Earth without ever being able to experience the wonderfulness of being with God?

Thanks again.

Take what I say with a grain a salt, I’m paraphrasing answers from a lot of Catholic stuff I’ve read, and a few ideas of my own [which, are probably not orginial just me connecting already established dots withotu having seen them in print].

Matt 7:22, talks about how Jesus’ says on the day of judgement people will come to him saying they spread the gospel, and performed miracles, but Jesus tells them “depart from me you workers of iniquity”. Iv’e always seen this to mean that there are going to be Christians in Hell, there will be people who know Christ, maybe even have a “personal relationship” with Him, people who know the deal, and yet, for whatever reason, they decide they’d rather have their cake and eat it to. Go to Church on Sunday, wear their cross and talk about the Gospel to their work mates, yet insist their multiple abortions were A-OK with the man upstairs…

I think its actually incredibly worrying.

Choice wise, I don’t think anyone in their right mind would choose Hell, but we choose Hell through both action and inaction. When we choose to fornicate, we are choosing Hell, when we choose abortion, we are choosing Hell.

Christ came to save all, he died for all, but he didn’t hang on that cross so we could sin our little hearts out.

People in Hell? No one outside of Hell can no for sure what they think and feel, the private revelations are just that, private. We can chose to accept them or not. I tend to think that because people in Hell have no hope, they have no ability to think of wanting a second chance, as to contemplate a second chance would be to have that inkling of hope. In Hell, there is just pain and suffering and hopelessness. Any thoughts that exist outside of that formulae would be hopeful.

I do think they know why theyr’e there, I think they know they shunned God in their actions, and that this is the ramification for that. And in knowing they offended an eternal being, their only just punishment is eternal Hell. In that, they really are hopeless.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

For a person to commit a Mortal Sin they have to know they are committing it (Disobeying their conscience, as well). God does not forgive Mortal Sins after you die… If you die in a state of Mortal Sin you go straight to Hell.

So what you said earlier was a lie. We can’t repent once we’ve died.

Muslims don’t believe in the True Hell or True Purgatory. They believe in a False Hell (A non-existent Hell) and from a Catholic (a true viewpoint) they are heretics,

False. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;” (CCC 2089)

---

Okay, thank you for your thoughts, vera dicere. Any thoughts on how those in Heaven feel if all their relatives are in Hell? I’ve been wondering about this…

 

[Azygos]

So what you said earlier was a lie. We can’t repent once we’ve died.

You can’t repent if you are in Hell. If you make it to purgatory then you will be repenting of sins because you will desire to be in heaven, I guarantee it!

False. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;” (CCC 2089)

---

Okay, thank you for your thoughts, vera dicere. Any thoughts on how those in Heaven feel if all their relatives are in Hell? I’ve been wondering about this…

You are right about the heresy bit. I didn’t realize that was the definition and I was simply using the term to refer to their false religious teachings. Thank you for the correction.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

You can’t repent if you are in Hell. If you make it to purgatory then you will be repenting of sins because you will desire to be in heaven, I guarantee it!

Okay. Though I was asking about when you die and come before God for judgement, not when you’re already in Hell!

So, Azygos, any thoughts on how it works if you’re in Heaven and all your friends and relatives are in Hell?

Thanks!

 

[Azygos]

Okay. Though I was asking about when you die and come before God for judgement, not when you’re already in Hell!

So, Azygos, any thoughts on how it works if you’re in Heaven and all your friends and relatives are in Hell?

Thanks!

In heaven: you will not feel sorry for those in Hell. You will look down at your family members that are hell (hopefully none) and know that they got exactly what they deserved.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

So we will be sad in Heaven?

 

[Azygos]

So we will be sad in Heaven?

1 Corinthians 2:9
9 But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,”

 

[Jerry-Jet]

In heaven you will hate sin as God hates sin and since you do and since you will love God’s justice and hate sin that is an infinite injustice it will not sadden you that others are in hell for you will know that they were given a fair choice and chose against god.

And like God you will be full of all love and the scriptures say that “love does not demand its own way”.

To be truly loving you have to love so much that you honor people’s free will choice of going to Hell!

I’m sure in heaven god will make provision for you to not be sad about people going to Hell as he is not sad for people going to Hell.

Jesus lamented Jerusalem not repenting while he was here on earth as Son of Man.

In his glorified body as just judge at the end of time i don’t believe that god will lament anyone going to Hell.

When He says “depart from me sinners I never knew you”. I don’t think that he’ll be sad

Wake up people–Hell is REAL!

Universalism is a lie!

Jesus says “FEW” there are that find the road to eternal life.

Believe Jesus and avoid Hell!

 

[Azygos]

In heaven you will hate sin as God hates sin and since you do and since you will love God’s justice and hate sin that is an infinite injustice it will not sadden you that others are in hell for you will know that they were given a fair choice and chose against god.

You explained it better than I could! Thanks Jerry.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Okay, thanks very much everyone.