Bettina Arndt on sex starved husbands

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A very valid point since it evidently struck a nerve on this forum. Many Catholics can easily explain the procreative side of sex but sadly do not understand the unitive. **Sex is the one activity that makes a marriage relationship different from *every other relationship. *** Without it, you’re just a roommate or a good friend. Sadly, this is an element that is absent in marriage prep and sets a lot of Catholic couples up for divorce.
Are you saying that elderly couples who can’t have sex aren’t married anymore?

:eek:

Edited to add: or that couples who are separated for substantial periods of time (like in the military) aren’t married anymore?

I feel like marriage has more distinctive features than that.
 
The thing I find interesting on these forums is that if a man wants more intimacy with his wife, he is presumed to be a sex crazed ogre until proven innocent. Like wanting intimacy is a bad thing or something.
Well, that is one of the possibilities.

There can be a desire for sex that does not seem at all connected with concern for the well-being of the wife.

For example, it’s not exactly unknown for husbands to be pushy about wanting to violate medical orders to abstain from intercourse (which are not at all uncommon).
 
Many regulars on the forum know that I think sexual intimacy is terribly important in a marriage, and that if people can have sex with their spouses they ought to do so regularly. However, crowdsourcing advice for your friend’s marriage doesn’t seem like the best idea.
That’s a reasonable point.
 
Are you saying that elderly couples who can’t have sex aren’t married anymore?

:eek:

Edited to add: or that couples who are separated for substantial periods of time (like in the military) aren’t married anymore?

I feel like marriage has more distinctive features than that.
Have they ever had sex? If so, then they have a unique relationship with each other that’s different from every other relationship. Let’s not use extreme examples in order to ignore the essence of what makes a marriage relationship.

We know from brain studies the neurochemicals that are active during the sexual act: they bond both spouses together mentally and emotionally. No other activity comes to releasing the amount of bonding chemicals as sex does.
 
Well, that is one of the possibilities.

There can be a desire for sex that does not seem at all connected with concern for the well-being of the wife.

For example, it’s not exactly unknown for husbands to be pushy about wanting to violate medical orders to abstain from intercourse (which are not at all uncommon).
It is also possible that wives can be selfish and insensitive (which is not all that uncommon).
 
Many regulars on the forum know that I think sexual intimacy is terribly important in a marriage, and that if people can have sex with their spouses they ought to do so regularly. However, crowdsourcing advice for your friend’s marriage doesn’t seem like the best idea.
To be fair, I never asked for advice. The posters on this thread could not conceive of the possibility that a man might have a legitimate complaint when it comes to the sex life of the marriage. I just offered up an example of where the man does have a legitimate complaint. A agree that CAF is no place to get advice on marriage and sex.
 
Sex is the one activity that makes a marriage relationship different from *every other relationship. * Without it, you’re just a roommate or a good friend. Sadly, this is an element that is absent in marriage prep and sets a lot of Catholic couples up for divorce.
I would argue that there are a few more things that make my relationship to my husband different from that of a good friend or roommate. Sex is important, but there is an emotional intimacy as well as other forms of physical intimacy.
 
I would argue that there are a few more things that make my relationship to my husband different from that of a good friend or roommate. Sex is important, but there is an emotional intimacy as well as other forms of physical intimacy.
All of which stem from or lead to the sexual act. You can have strong emotional ties to many people, even physical intimacy (e.g. hugging your mother or sister, holding your child) but your sexual relationship with your husband is what elevates your marriage above all other human relationships. The psychological and neurochemical bonds you created during the sexual act will hold you together during difficult times.
 
All of which stem from or lead to the sexual act. You can have strong emotional ties to many people, even physical intimacy (e.g. hugging your mother or sister, holding your child) but your sexual relationship with your husband is what elevates your marriage above all other human relationships. The psychological and neurochemical bonds you created during the sexual act will hold you together during difficult times.
There’s a view (I’d call it the “perpetual motion machine view”) of sex that says that sex magically bonds couples together and keeps them having sex and bonding, ad infinitum.

But if that view is correct, why do married couples ever stop having sex? Or why do unmarried couples who are having sex ever break up?
 
There’s a view (I’d call it the “perpetual motion machine view”) of sex that says that sex magically bonds couples together and keeps them having sex and bonding, ad infinitum.

But if that view is correct, why do married couples ever stop having sex? Or why do unmarried couples who are having sex ever break up?
I would argue that sex helps couples bond. It is obviously not foolproof. Our own selfishness and sinfulness can get in the way of that. Converse, when sex goes sometimes all other forms of intimacy goes as well. No hand holding, no kissing, no hugging. It is hard to feel intimate towards your spouse when you are treated like an ATM machine who is bad at housework.

townhall.com/columnists/jenniferrobackmorse/2006/05/09/sleeping-in-the-basement-n931211
 
I would argue that sex helps couples bond. It is obviously not foolproof. **Our own selfishness and sinfulness can get in the way of that. **Converse, when sex goes sometimes all other forms of intimacy goes as well. No hand holding, no kissing, no hugging. It is hard to feel intimate towards your spouse when you are treated like an ATM machine who is bad at housework.
Or (as in your previous example) previous trauma makes marital sex a source of emotional pain, not a source of intimacy. Or physical pain or illness makes sex unappealing.

There might be other issues going on–not being attracted to the opposite sex, being asexual, being uncomfortable with touch due to being on the autism spectrum, etc.

It doesn’t need to be selfishness or sinfulness at all, and I would suggest that selfishness an sinfulness should not be our starting assumption when there are so many other possibilities.
 
Or (as in your previous example) previous trauma makes marital sex a source of emotional pain, not a source of intimacy. Or physical pain or illness makes sex unappealing.

There might be other issues going on–not being attracted to the opposite sex, being asexual, being uncomfortable with touch due to being on the autism spectrum, etc.

It doesn’t need to be selfishness or sinfulness at all, and I would suggest that selfishness an sinfulness should not be our starting assumption when there are so many other possibilities.
I have news for you, even people who have been traumatized can be sinful and selfish. That doesn’t mean that people aren’t owed compassion. My friend is owed compassion, his wife is owed compassion. Married life is not easy, especially when it is between two selfish people, which pretty much fits everyone.
 
Or (as in your previous example) previous trauma makes marital sex a source of emotional pain, not a source of intimacy. Or physical pain or illness makes sex unappealing.

There might be other issues going on–not being attracted to the opposite sex, being asexual, being uncomfortable with touch due to being on the autism spectrum, etc.

It doesn’t need to be selfishness or sinfulness at all, and I would suggest that selfishness an sinfulness should not be our starting assumption when there are so many other possibilities.
All of which of course does not change the essence of the marital sexual relationship and what it should be.
There’s a view (I’d call it the “perpetual motion machine view”) of sex that says that sex magically bonds couples together and keeps them having sex and bonding, ad infinitum.
It’s not magic, it’s brain chemistry. Your mind uses oxytocin and dopamine to wire itself to whatever it associates with at that time. The same process bonds mothers to their children, porn addicts to porn, food addicts to food, etc. Married couples actually store the name of their spouse in the same region of the brain as they store their own name: they think about them as they think about themselves. Almost sounds like a “one flesh” union of some kind. You don’t get there by being a good roommate.

The Church has the sacrament of marriage, and so many rules and teachings about it, because sex is an essential element and one of the most powerful activities couples can engage in.
 
I have news for you, even people who have been traumatized can be sinful and selfish. That doesn’t mean that people aren’t owed compassion. My friend is owed compassion, his wife is owed compassion. Married life is not easy, especially when it is between two selfish people, which pretty much fits everyone.
She didn’t say that was not possible that a traumatized person be objectively and culpably selfish in how they deal with their trauma. She merely said it is not charitable to make it the starting assumption. Of course it is possible for someone to use a real trauma as an excuse for inappropriate demands, even to the point of out-and-out manipulation.
 
All of which of course does not change the essence of the marital sexual relationship and what it should be.
But those limitations certainly do limit what it **can **be between any particular two individuals.
 
I have news for you, even people who have been traumatized can be sinful and selfish. That doesn’t mean that people aren’t owed compassion. My friend is owed compassion, his wife is owed compassion. Married life is not easy, especially when it is between two selfish people, which pretty much fits everyone.
Eh, I would say that my husband and I have a great sex life. (We’ve been married 19 years, so that’s not a newlywed brag.)

It’s not great because either of us is especially unselfish or compassionate–it’s just that we’re both having a good time.

I have often wondered the last few years–why do conservative religious people make sex sound so TERRIBLE?

While I can imagine that there might be bonding even while one spouse finds sex painful, I can’t imagine that that is so when it is both painful **and **under duress. Whatever wonderful effects sex has in a functional couple, I suspect it doesn’t have quite those effects when there is both pain (whether physical or emotional) and the spouse who is in pain is being bullied or guilted into it. If the effects were so amazing, it wouldn’t be necessary to bully or guilt the unwilling spouse, right?
 
She didn’t say that was not possible that a traumatized person be objectively and culpably selfish in how they deal with their trauma. She merely said it is not charitable to make it the starting assumption. Of course it is possible for someone to use a real trauma as an excuse for inappropriate demands, even to the point of out-and-out manipulation.
Nor is it charitable to assume that if the husband has a complaint about sex then he is just whining or guilty of one of many other sins that husbands are accused of.
 
While I can imagine that there might be bonding even while one spouse finds sex painful, I can’t imagine that that is so when it is both painful **and **under duress. Whatever wonderful effects sex has in a functional couple, I suspect it doesn’t have quite those effects when there is both pain (whether physical or emotional) and the spouse who is in pain is being bullied or guilted into it. If the effects were so amazing, it wouldn’t be necessary to bully or guilt the unwilling spouse, right?
This sounds a like a person with a broken foot thinking that all movement is bad. They can get therapy, maybe heal much of what was injured, and maybe even learn to walk or run again. But they can’t swear off all walking and expect the world to come to them. As you indicated, sex is good. God created it. We should move ourselves towards God’s ideal, not form sex around our brokenness.
 
Eh, I would say that my husband and I have a great sex life. (We’ve been married 19 years, so that’s not a newlywed brag.)

It’s not great because either of us is especially unselfish or compassionate–it’s just that we’re both having a good time.

I have often wondered the last few years–why do conservative religious people make sex sound so TERRIBLE?

While I can imagine that there might be bonding even while one spouse finds sex painful, I can’t imagine that that is so when it is both painful **and **under duress. Whatever wonderful effects sex has in a functional couple, I suspect it doesn’t have quite those effects when there is both pain (whether physical or emotional) and the spouse who is in pain is being bullied or guilted into it. If the effects were so amazing, it wouldn’t be necessary to bully or guilt the unwilling spouse, right?
I don’t see the bullying or guilting. Asking someone to work towards a solution is not bullying. Bullying is when the person asked threatens divorce and says “you get nothing take it or leave it.”
 
There’s a view (I’d call it the “perpetual motion machine view”) of sex that says that sex magically bonds couples together and keeps them having sex and bonding, ad infinitum.

But if that view is correct, why do married couples ever stop having sex? Or why do unmarried couples who are having sex ever break up?
There is no force in human nature that will keep someone from making a commitment and then breaking it when the going gets rough. That doesn’t mean that nothing works or that a lifelong marriage is some kind of a fluke rather than the natural and attainable end that follows marriage vows made validly and lived at a normal human level of fidelity.

It is a logical fallacy to say that a positive biofeedback loop that can be broken by an outside force cannot have been a postive biofeedback loop in the first place. What other part of married life cannot be enjoyed with a sister, a brother, or a friend? A married couple may have to do without sex for some serious reason, but sex cannot be replaced by some other “hobby.”

More to the point, participation in the marital embrace is one of the* rights* of marriage. The marriage relationship is not one in which rights are asserted in a demanding or quid pro quo way, that is contrary to the nature of marriage, but the rights of marriage are, nevertheless, real rights and legitimate expectations that may not rightly be denied except when it truly is necessary. Delayed, yes. Negotiated, yes. Denied altogether when there is no incapacity? No.

Canon law reflects the Church’s understanding of the fundamental nature of this right:
Can. 1084 §1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature.
(Yes, the Church is saying that those incapable of sexual intercourse are incapable of marriage, not by arbitrary law but by the nature of marriage!!)

§2. If the impediment of impotence is doubtful, whether by a doubt about the law or a doubt about a fact, a marriage must not be impeded nor, while the doubt remains, declared null.

**§3. Sterility neither prohibits nor nullifies marriage, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1098.

Can. 1096 §1. For matrimonial consent to exist, the contracting parties must be at least not ignorant that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman ordered to the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation.**

Adultery is singled out in canon law as a form of betrayal among all others that automatically gives the offended spouse the right to unilaterally leave the common conjugal life, without need to show danger in delay.

Sexual relations are not “magic,” but they are among the most consequential of the aspects of the marital covenant. The marital embrace is a ratification of the marital covenant, not merely the means by which children are produced. Perpetual impotence invalidates a marriage; perpetual sterility does not.
Eh, I would say that my husband and I have a great sex life. (We’ve been married 19 years, so that’s not a newlywed brag.)

It’s not great because either of us is especially unselfish or compassionate–it’s just that we’re both having a good time.

I have often wondered the last few years–why do conservative religious people make sex sound so TERRIBLE?

While I can imagine that there might be bonding even while one spouse finds sex painful, I can’t imagine that that is so when it is both painful **and **under duress. Whatever wonderful effects sex has in a functional couple, I suspect it doesn’t have quite those effects when there is both pain (whether physical or emotional) and the spouse who is in pain is being bullied or guilted into it. If the effects were so amazing, it wouldn’t be necessary to bully or guilt the unwilling spouse, right?
Come, come. The husband he is talking about does not think sex is something terrible. He thinks it is a necessary part of the marital bond and wants his wife to understand that it is legitimately* important *that he not be denied sex with her if it is not totally necessary. If you and your husband have a sex life only because you both find it fun, well, I wouldn’t say that is the most unselfish basis for a sex life that I’ve ever heard. You’re not saying that if one of you stops having fun, the other is just stuck and too bad…and that isn’t selfish? No, you don’t really mean that, I hope.

After all, this man’s life and she alone can fulfill this role in his life. Having sexual relations with him is not “under duress.” As canon law puts it, it is assumed that people making marriage vows understand that the marriage bond involves sexual cooperation. That is such an essential part of the bond that it is singled out among other sorts of necessary cooperation as one that must be understood to be part of marriage. Marriage is not a “well, we’ll consummate once, I’ll have done my duty, and after that I’ll let you know how it is for me.” No, while it may be that one spouse may tragically lose the capacity to share this aspect of marriage, it is of course understood that neither spouse will deem their sex life null and void until the ways they might go about having one in spite of their challenges have been exhausted.

Let us be truthful, too: to be denied sex by your spouse altogether has emotional consequences of its own. It gives the feeling of being unwanted and undesirable. I cannot understand why some people are so quick to see how this applies to wives and so stubbornly unable to see that it applies to men, too.
 
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