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Allegra
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If that’s the case, that’s the case. Only he knows that.
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pianistclare
Guest
Friend, you left out #3: To be RIGHT and to get others to verify/justify that “fact”.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
No I was hoping for a better discussion. But the biases of the posters got in the way of a good discussion. The posters just couldn’t fathom that a husband might have a legitimate complaint against his wife.Friend, you left out #3: To be RIGHT and to get others to verify/justify that “fact”.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
You seem to know much about your “friend” and his situation.
Here’s the thing. I don’t normally get overly personal on the forums but I’m going to discuss this here.
My wife and I have six kids, we have a great marriage and an active sex life.
I’m going to be specific so hold on.
As nfp instructors we have had unique insights to marital sex lives.
Frequency seems to be the issue on these threads. So with six kids and “life” we average 1-2 times per week. The first three years of our marriage was contracepted and about 1-2 times per day. I suppose we would both still like that frequency but situations change.
We are attractive and attracted to each other. We dress nice, stay “sexy” take time to care for our selves. We also want the very best for each other and sacrifice not for ourselves but for the other person. My wife works all day to provide for the kids and I, I make sure she is taken care of and loved and supported. We are a team working in tandem to make a Holy successful life. We define that success by the goal of heaven.
Now my wife has medical issues and of course we have six kids. That has affected our ability to have sex sometimes. Sometimes for months. I can’t imagine approaching her with a carnal need if she was physically or mentally not enforcing from it.
There is a limit to the outcomes possible in these threads.
1). And most common. The man has betrayed the marriage in some way in the past. Cheating, porn, addiction etc. and the rate of “forgiveness” is not to his liking.
2). The man does not see a wife but rather a tool to satisfy him.
3. The woman is cold, unloving and hurtful. In which case one must wonder why she was chosen.
4. The woman has a current or past trauma. If past, this should have been disclosed before marriage and full knowledge should come into play. If current, the husband’s job should be a protector, not a “victim” by proxy or worse, an accomplice after the fact.
5. The woman has severe medical or mental problems. In which case treatment should be sought. However treatment does not equal cure, nor should it be expected too.
6. The man has become unattractive to his wife, either physically or mentally.
In all but three cases( 3, and 5) the man is to blame. In three. The woman is to blame in number 3.
Where does your friend fit in?
You stated earlier that a marriage without sex isn’t a marriage. That sir is an insult to the many couple I’ve known who cannot have sex in thier marriages anymore.
These threads make me sad for some wives, and grateful for my own. It’s like going to wal mart to feel better about ones self. It’s sad.
And in many cases down right disgusting.
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pianistclare
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He should start his own thread with his own “spin” on his “friends” problem.
Burying ones head in the sand is exactly why he is angry.
He doesn’t like his wife burying her head in the sand.
So we’re all going to do the same?
Wow.
If he starts his own thread about his own problem, maybe he’ll get more sympathy.
Lots of people post lots of hypothetical and lots of thinly disguised problems.
But they forget they’ve already told their story online. Most of us don’t have amnesia.
When something if “off” it’s hard to engage in legit conversation.
Is this the hypothetical?
Or is this the pretend?
At any rate, it’s been derailed for PAGES.
He should just start another thread.
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BlueEyedLady
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That’s been exactly my argument.
At the end of the day, there’s no getting around the fact that spouses are obligated to have sex. They just are. If there is something standing in the way, whether it be physical or mental, the person is obligated to do what he or she can to solve it. Sex is part of marriage, nights out on the town, while wonderful, are not.
It seems crazy to expect him to try to woo her with all of these optional things when she isn’t even willing to discuss the basics. If she were making an effort at intimacy and angry that he didn’t make an effort on the extra stuff, I’d have way more sympathy. But sex isn’t something you have to earn and I’m not convinced this is a problem she’ll warm up to fixing after a few well-timed dates.
I think EJ pretty much said it perfectly, and let’s face it, far more compassionately than I could have. If this were a genuine trauma thing and she was really committed to her husband, you’d think she’d try to be more communicative and sympathetic.
And as to your other point, yes, middle class people divorce foolishly all the time. And you’re right, they don’t always stay middle class when they do. I’ve seen it in my own family. A lot of times, these divorces are the result of being taken for granted for years on end. It seems that’s where the husband is right now.
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stinkcat_14
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I never said a marriage without sex is not a marriage. I said sex was an integral part of marriage. There are many valid reasons why a couple would not have sex. However, if one spouse brings up a problem and then gets gaslighted, the gaslighter is not responding appropriately. You can say why was the husband so stupid to marry a mean vindictive gaslighter in the first place. Good question. Perhaps divorce is the only real option. No spouse is obligated to endure abuse.
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stinkcat_14
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BEL, I personally think your posts are among the most Christian in this thread.That’s been exactly my argument.
At the end of the day, there’s no getting around the fact that spouses are obligated to have sex. They just are. If there is something standing in the way, whether it be physical or mental, the person is obligated to do what he or she can to solve it. Sex is part of marriage, nights out on the town, while wonderful, are not.
It seems crazy to expect him to try to woo her with all of these optional things when she isn’t even willing to discuss the basics. If she were making an effort at intimacy and angry that he didn’t make an effort on the extra stuff, I’d have way more sympathy. But sex isn’t something you have to earn and I’m not convinced this is a problem she’ll warm up to fixing after a few well-timed dates.
I think EJ pretty much said it perfectly, and let’s face it, far more compassionately than I could have. If this were a genuine trauma thing and she was really committed to her husband, you’d think she’d try to be more communicative and sympathetic.
And as to your other point, yes, middle class people divorce foolishly all the time. And you’re right, they don’t always stay middle class when they do. I’ve seen it in my own family. A lot of times, these divorces are the result of being taken for granted for years on end. It seems that’s where the husband is right now.
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Xantippe
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Look, I’ve given several actionable suggestions specifically about reading (Boundaries in Marriage and How Not To Hate Your Husband After Kids) and some possible boundaries for housework, and you’ve made absolutely no response.
Those are things that the guy can do almost immediately–read the books and enforce boundaries.
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stinkcat_14
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I apologize if I didn’t respond. They are good suggestions, this thread kind of got out of control and there are a lot of attacks to respond to. Another good suggestion was to go talk to a priest.
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Xantippe
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I’m suggesting that lawn-homework-laundry-dishes-cleaning-sex is not that much sexier than lawn-homework-laundry-dishes-cleaning-etc. That list puts sex right on the level of cleaning the toilet.That’s been exactly my argument.
I’m not saying that stinkcat’s friend needs to “earn” sex, but that the fun seems to have left the relationship, and it’s time to put some fun back in. I’m sure stinkcat’s friend would enjoy some fun activities, too…He seems in need of some fun, too.
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bitterhope
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Books and boundaries for housework don’t always solve intimacy issues. I know families in real life that have one spouse doing everything in the home and still no response from the other spouse in the bedroom. Setting up boundaries for housework may help even things out there, but it’s not doing anything for the intimacy. Books only help people who are seeking help. Often the spouse that is not interested in intimacy also is not interested in seeking help. Dates and time away from the children also don’t have much effect on whether or not a spouse desires to please their partner in the way only he or she has the right to do.
Sex is not the most important thing in a marriage, but near constant rejection kills.
And BEL is correct. Sex is not something that needs to be earned in a marriage. Mutually agreed upon abstinence or abstinence due to a specific situation is far different than the rejection of one spouse from the other.
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Xantippe
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I recommended the books and boundaries primarily to help with chore and anger issues–which actually seem to be stinkcat’s friend’s primary issues right now.
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stinkcat_14
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Part of the problem when one of the parties is afraid of intimacy is that the one who is afraid of intimacy will do anything to distract themselves from their issues. Outings and other things become mere distractions. The whole goal is to avoid the fear and anxiety that comes with intimacy. Sometimes in these situations you see alcoholism, workaholism and just about every other distraction there is out there. I am not saying the activities aren’t important, the problem is they distract from the real issue: the evasion of responsibility.
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BoomBoomMancini
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Yeah, I don’t think “earning sex” is a good way to think about it. First, nice gestures aren’t going to resonate with her if they’re transparently aimed at getting in her pants. “Hey, did you notice?! I vacuumed! Can you hold still for five minutes?”
Second, with the caveat that I’m a guy, I think there are few things that women find less attractive than desperation. If he’s following her around whining like a horny teenager, that’s just about guaranteed to make her lose any interest she does have.
Anyway, I’m sort of with stinkcat here, broadly speaking. I don’t think he’s saying, “She owes him sex x number of times a month and should just suck it up and think of England.” I think we all agree that marriage doesn’t mean sex slavery. Wives and husbands are allowed to not be in the mood on any particular evening.
What I think she does have an obligation to do is at least recognize that her spouse is hurting, and try to work on the problem. Demanding that he just go without till he dies is pretty harsh. And it’s not just about denying him the physical release of an orgasm, aka the thread’s “10 minute boink.” If my wife didn’t want to have sex with me for a long stretch of time without some obvious physical reason, I’d be pretty frustrated physically. But even more than that, I’d be pretty hurt emotionally. I’d wonder if she wasn’t attracted to me anymore, if she had fallen out of love with me, etc. It’s not just the base desire for an orgasm. Long term rejection would really mess with a person psychologically.
If I were advising the friend, I’d offer this: don’t go into every physical interaction with the hope it ends in intercourse. If his friend’s wife knows that kissing or cuddling with her husband is inevitably going to lead to him pawing at her, she’s not going to want to get super close. Instead, just go with the flow. Give her a kiss and then be ready to leave it at that. Give her a massage without trying to push it towards sex. If sex happens, great. If not, be ready to just enjoy whatever happens. If anything gets her libido going, it’s probably going to be getting her to relax around him, and that’s not going to happen if he just seems like a whiny erection following her around the house.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Men are not gaslighted, they are the gaslighters. Normally.
Can you give an example of the gaslighting?
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stinkcat_14
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For example, if the husband asks to the wife to work on fixing their sex life and the wife says that she has no problems, it is all the husband’s problem. Also, when the husband brings up something that was said before, and the wife denies saying it. Or when the wife trashes people who threaten the wife’s delicate ego. For example, my friend went to see a counselor about their problem, the wife trashed the counselor, said he was filling his head with garbage, etc.
Other forms of abuse: throwing things, breaking things, punching him.
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EasterJoy
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What? No. Sometimes it is men, sometimes women. There certainly is no shortage of female narcissists out there:
“…When a gaslighter thinks that they are not the problem and everyone else is, this is called having an ego-syntonic personality. It can be very difficult to get ego-syntonic gaslighters into treatment; they believe nothing is wrong with them. A gaslighting spouse or partner may either refuse to go to therapy, or if they do attend with you, they may tell the therapist that you are the problem. If the therapist recommends that the gaslighter changes a behavior, the gaslighter will label the therapist as incompetent. Even in therapy, a gaslighter may not truly be aware of, or may refuse to acknowledge that their behavior is the problem…”
psychologytoday.com/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/are-gaslighters-aware-what-they-do
There is no “normally.” There is the relationship you are in. Even if women were only 0.1% of gaslighters, but you married one, then you would have a 100% gaslighter on your hands.
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EasterJoy
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She is physically violent with him? He should be very concerned about that.
Honestly, on the whole you have not been describing the actions of someone prostrated by a sexual trauma. That’s not to say she’s never been a victim. That is to say that this is not the kind of behavior that kind of crime produces in the victim. This behavior comes from something else.
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BlueEyedLady
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I would disagree with that. Some women are master gas lighters, though it looks a little different. Men will do it with anger or instill fear, and a woman will do it with emotion. “I feel ugly” will over time become “You’ve spent years making me feel ugly” and eventually, a guy who has spent years trying to build up his low self esteem wife is convinced he’s done nothing but tear her down. Or a few incidents of catching him looking at another woman over the course of years will be made out to be a pattern, and that will be made into “always looking to cheat” because that’s what it’s “always felt like” to her". Or, a few angry outbursts can be turned into a pattern of intimidation and manipulation. Women are good at believing their feelings are reality and making others believe it too. (Probably why they’re more prone to believing a fling is a fairy tale romance.)
Unfortunately, a lot of well-meaning men fall for it, just like well-meaning women want to give their gas lighting partners the benefit of the doubt. Nothing hits a good man in love harder than seeing his woman feel sad; it can really mess with his head and there are women who will exploit that.
The sexes aren’t so different; it’s just the tones and words they use.
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