Between a Rock and a Hard Place

[Howard_Roark]

So, I wish there was a forum on CA titled **“Catholics who aren’t really Traditionalists because they’re scared of some creepy people they met there and don’t think the movement really represents pre-councilar Catholicism anyway but also don’t trust the Diocesan system because the Bishop is a tool and all of the diocesan employees are raving wacko heretics and who therefore end up driving all day just to get to a reverent Mass where the preaching is sound and are getting pretty sick of the whole mess and are wondering just what in blue blazes they are going to do about it for the rest of their lives.” **

That would be my forum.

As it is, I don’t think such a place exists anywhere on the Catholic internet…although this may be the closest.

I want to talk to other Catholics who feel really caught between Traditionalism and the Diocesan System and can’t really commit to either one. No way I’m going SSPX, although I understand why some people do and I refuse to condemn them for it. How they deal with the canonical issues is up to them. As far as I can tell, there are equally weighty canonical issues in most Diocesan parishes nobody worries about. I have come to the conclusion, crazy as it may seem, that most of the priests in my diocese have sufference LS excommunication anyway, and as far as I can tell virtually every diocesan annulment granted here is based upon falsified information. Nobody else, even traditionally-minded folks, ever seem to notice.

We have some resources in my diocese, an Indult Mass and a couple of really solid parishes…but my life and home are hours away in a small town. The local parish here is beyond wacko.

I want to talk to some other people in this situation. What really brought it to a point for me is meeting a great potential convert recently…they wanted to know how to join the Church. What to answer?

“Look, the first thing, what MPG does your car get? That’s really the most important. It would be a Holy thing for you to buy a Prius. Because you’re going to be driving for Jesus, oh yes you are.”

I’m so tired of this limbo. All the local Catholics think we left the Chuch altogether. A few were concerned enough to ask. We said “We’re driving to the city for a reverent Mass” and the look of non-comprehension was priceless.

We’ve got a battle-royale going in my extended family, the old guard thinks we have sinned greatly by abandoning the local parish. We can’t even discuss the Church any more. Ugh.

I’m going to go look at a Prius.

 

[Cathryn]

Howard: I left my home parish ten years ago, and traveled 30 miles to the next parish in another diocese. Now I am able to go back because my home parish has a pastor who is offering reverent Masses including a Sunday morning traditional Latin Mass. I go to his reverent NO Masses during the week and traditional Latin on Sundays.

I have a great Pastor right now, but he could always be moved. My solution now and for the future is to focus on the Holy Eucharist. I want to always be able to go to any valid Mass anywhere especially traveling, and recognize Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Even if a parish is on the liberal side I can still visit the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle and spend time with the Eucharistic Jesus. Regular Holy Hour visits heal a lot of the damage that is being done in many churches.

 

[PrayforMallory]

So, I wish there was a forum on CA titled **“Catholics who aren’t really Traditionalists because they’re scared of some creepy people they met there and don’t think the movement really represents pre-councilar Catholicism anyway but also don’t trust the Diocesan system because the Bishop is a tool and all of the diocesan employees are raving wacko heretics and who therefore end up driving all day just to get to a reverent Mass where the preaching is sound and are getting pretty sick of the whole mess and are wondering just what in blue blazes they are going to do about it for the rest of their lives.” **

That would be my forum.

As it is, I don’t think such a place exists anywhere on the Catholic internet…although this may be the closest.

I want to talk to other Catholics who feel really caught between Traditionalism and the Diocesan System and can’t really commit to either one. No way I’m going SSPX, although I understand why some people do and I refuse to condemn them for it. How they deal with the canonical issues is up to them. As far as I can tell, there are equally weighty canonical issues in most Diocesan parishes nobody worries about. I have come to the conclusion, crazy as it may seem, that most of the priests in my diocese have sufference LS excommunication anyway, and as far as I can tell virtually every diocesan annulment granted here is based upon falsified information. Nobody else, even traditionally-minded folks, ever seem to notice.

We have some resources in my diocese, an Indult Mass and a couple of really solid parishes…but my life and home are hours away in a small town. The local parish here is beyond wacko.

I want to talk to some other people in this situation. What really brought it to a point for me is meeting a great potential convert recently…they wanted to know how to join the Church. What to answer?

“Look, the first thing, what MPG does your car get? That’s really the most important. It would be a Holy thing for you to buy a Prius. Because you’re going to be driving for Jesus, oh yes you are.”

I’m so tired of this limbo. All the local Catholics think we left the Chuch altogether. A few were concerned enough to ask. We said “We’re driving to the city for a reverent Mass” and the look of non-comprehension was priceless.

We’ve got a battle-royale going in my extended family, the old guard thinks we have sinned greatly by abandoning the local parish. We can’t even discuss the Church any more. Ugh.

I’m going to go look at a Prius.

This was my situation. Fortunately, I moved to a different diocese.

It’d be great if they had a “30” minute policy, that people should have to drive no more than 30 minutes, in reasonable circumstances, to assist at a TLM.

I don’t discuss it with anyone in real life. Too divisive. I just go to my TLM parish (ICKSP). I really hope that everyone who wants regular access to the TLM will end up with it. These polemics will cease immediately when that happens.

We need better coordination on the internet about organizing them. We need a way to proselytize the TLM in our daily lives, too. Nobody could deny it if there were 30 people in your area who wanted it.

 

[elts1956]

This was my situation. Fortunately, I moved to a different diocese.

It’d be great if they had a “30” minute policy, that people should have to drive no more than 30 minutes, in reasonable circumstances, to assist at a TLM.

I don’t discuss it with anyone in real life. Too divisive. I just go to my TLM parish (ICKSP). I really hope that everyone who wants regular access to the TLM will end up with it. These polemics will cease immediately when that happens.

We need better coordination on the internet about organizing them. We need a way to proselytize the TLM in our daily lives, too. Nobody could deny it if there were 30 people in your area who wanted it.

Information please. When discussing Traditional Catholics and some who are called “Modernists”?, I get the impression the only problem between the two groups is the way in which Mass is offered. I have seen no other statements of why people would gather to one group, or another. I see only mention, of the “Great Errors” promulgated by Vatican II, but no specifics other than the differences in the way the TLM or the NO are said. Can you clarify? Thanks.

 

[Howard_Roark]

Seriously, 187 posts and you haven’t figured any of this out? Start by googling “Modernism” and reading about that movement. Seriously. Do it. Then come back and post.

 

[elts1956]

Seriously, 187 posts and you haven’t figured any of this out? Start by googling “Modernism” and reading about that movement. Seriously. Do it. Then come back and post.

What websites do you propose? There are a lot of nasties out there. 187 posts? Here? What thread? Thanks.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

What websites do you propose? There are a lot of nasties out there. 187 posts? Here? What thread? Thanks.

Instead of the internet, where anyone can (and usually does) post absurd stuff, you should probably stop by a library. Michael Davies has written quite a lot on this subject and I highly doubt you will find any better or thorough critiques of the Church after Vatican II than his work.

 

[elts1956]

Instead of the internet, where anyone can (and usually does) post absurd stuff, you should probably stop by a library. Michael Davies has written quite a lot on this subject and I highly doubt you will find any better or thorough critiques of the Church after Vatican II than his work.

Thanks so much.

 

[Genesis315]

Read the unabridged “Dialogue” of St. Catherine of Siena (sadly the only versions I can find in electronic form are abridged; but the unabridged is still in print) and a good volume of her letters (she wrote over 300 letters). She writes about the proper way to deal with apathetic, weak or simply bad clerics, clerics without knowledge of the faith, liturgical abuses (about as grave as they can get), dissent from the Pope, worldly, lukewarm Catholics, simoniacs, nepotism, rampant sexual immorality, Catholics divided and warring against each other, Catholics who choose to separate themselves from prelates they judge to be unfaithful, etc., etc.

There’s nothing new under the sun.

 

[puzzleannie]

spent a long time looking for a forum (and parish) as OP describes and we finally came to the conclusion that we are Catholic–no adjectives, no modifiers necessary. Like good little Catholics we will do what we as laity are supposed to do: pray, pay and obey, namely assist at Mass and frequent the sacraments, pursue personal prayer and spiritual growth, remedy gaps in our Catholic education, support the parish, dioceses, missions and global Church through material gifts of money, time and talent, and obey our pastor, bishop and pope in all things that are not sinful or not directly against the law of God and the Church.

Much happier since we gave up the time-consuming avocation of liturgy police, RE police, and over-concern with the spiritual lives of people who are not our own children.

then we both got active at the parish and diocesan level in various ways and found the challenges for someone actually working for the Church are even greater than those for someone simply trying to worship with the Church. also the temptation to use knowledge and influence aquired legitimately for beneficial purposes, in order to exert power over others, is great.

Now we are content to be laity, and let priests be priests. I do my job in the tasks the bishop, through my pastor, has delegated to me, but am thankfully to consumed by this job to try and do anyone else’s job. I zip it when it comes to anything to do with liturgy here, frankly the good far outweighs the lapses in any case. But it is true we are spoiled and get Catholic culture shock when we travel to other parishes/dioceses.

I also have a personal rule, made long ago as a history major, never to use labels that belong to political life in any other context, or to apply epithets inappropriately or anachronistically.

 

[lizaanne]

There are things that are important to us and so we drive a distance from home to get them.

+++ Receiving Jesus on the tongue, while kneeling
+++ A TLM when we desire one
+++ The ability for me to cover my head and not get looks and feel like I just fell from another planet (this is not open to comment or debate on this thread - take it somewhere else if you want to argue with me)
+++ Receiving Holy Communion only from a priest or deacon
+++ Good solid homilies that tell me what I need to hear and don’t beg me for money
+++ Confession available before every Mass - not just one Saturday a month for 20 minutes, IF the priest decides to show up

My husband and I are probably what most would consider traditional and conservative in our views, but not to the point of being radical about it. I love the NO Mass when said with reverence and not turned into a “look at me I’m a priest, welcome to MY parish” show.

I totally know what the OP is getting at - it’s hard to find that middle ground, but I think we are very blessed to have found our parish. Even if it is a bit of a drive for us, and pray we don’t get caught by the train trying to get there!!

~Liza

 

[Neil_Anthony]

So, I wish there was a forum on CA titled **“Catholics who aren’t really Traditionalists because they’re scared of some creepy people they met there and don’t think the movement really represents pre-councilar Catholicism anyway but also don’t trust the Diocesan system because the Bishop is a tool and all of the diocesan employees are raving wacko heretics and who therefore end up driving all day just to get to a reverent Mass where the preaching is sound and are getting pretty sick of the whole mess and are wondering just what in blue blazes they are going to do about it for the rest of their lives.” **

Please, show more respect for the Bishops. They were chosen by God to shepherd your city / diocese. They have Holy Orders.

 

[Howard_Roark]

---

They were chosen by God to shepherd your city / diocese. They have Holy Orders.***

Like I don’t know this. He’s still a tool.

 

[Howard_Roark]

Puzzleannie wrote:

***spent a long time looking for a forum (and parish) as OP describes and we finally came to the conclusion that we are Catholic–no adjectives, no modifiers necessary. Like good little Catholics we will do what we as laity are supposed to do: pray, pay and obey, namely assist at Mass and frequent the sacraments, pursue personal prayer and spiritual growth, remedy gaps in our Catholic education, support the parish, dioceses, missions and global Church through material gifts of money, time and talent, and obey our pastor, bishop and pope in all things that are not sinful or not directly against the law of God and the Church.

Much happier since we gave up the time-consuming avocation of liturgy police, RE police, and over-concern with the spiritual lives of people who are not our own children. ***

Yeah…we gave that up, too…but it didn’t solve the problem of what to do in concrete situations that arise that involve the parish. You can only have your head (blissfully) in the sand until it is forcibly yanked out by the couple who comes to you aksing what the Church teaches about contraception (in contrast to what Fr. Fancypants told them). In our case, we now have this potential convert we’re playing hot-potato with.

then we both got active at the parish and diocesan level in various ways and found the challenges for someone actually working for the Church are even greater than those for someone simply trying to worship with the Church. also the temptation to use knowledge and influence aquired legitimately for beneficial purposes, in order to exert power over others, is great.

Every time we took on a volunteer position in the old parish, we were handed a heretical text to use and the fun started. Error may have no rights, but the DRE certainly does.

Now we are content to be laity, and let priests be priests. I do my job in the tasks the bishop, through my pastor, has delegated to me, but am thankfully to consumed by this job to try and do anyone else’s job. I zip it when it comes to anything to do with liturgy here, frankly the good far outweighs the lapses in any case. But it is true we are spoiled and get Catholic culture shock when we travel to other parishes/dioceses.

Yeah…I’m supposing my diocese would be one of the places you might travel to to receive that shock.

I also have a personal rule, made long ago as a history major, never to use labels that belong to political life in any other context, or to apply epithets inappropriately or anachronistically.

OK. When parish and Church life ceases to be political, I’ll stop using political labels in that context. I won’t be holding my breath.

---

We’ve been at this long enough to know that there are a limited number of responses to being an aware Catholic in a bad diocese/parish.

1.Head in sand.

2.Fire alarm.

3.Whine in private to Bishop.

4.Go privately crazy.

5.Go publicly crazy.

6.Move to Nebraska (or your own personal Nebraska).

We’ve seen them all. We’re trying the variation on #6 (Catholic nirvana via Toyota Prius).

 

[Howard_Roark]

Lizaanne wrote:

***There are things that are important to us and so we drive a distance from home to get them.

+++ Receiving Jesus on the tongue, while kneeling
+++ A TLM when we desire one
+++ The ability for me to cover my head and not get looks and feel like I just fell from another planet (this is not open to comment or debate on this thread - take it somewhere else if you want to argue with me)
+++ Receiving Holy Communion only from a priest or deacon
+++ Good solid homilies that tell me what I need to hear and don’t beg me for money
+++ Confession available before every Mass - not just one Saturday a month for 20 minutes, IF the priest decides to show up***

Bingo. You’re just like us.

***My husband and I are probably what most would consider traditional and conservative in our views, but not to the point of being radical about it. I love the NO Mass when said with reverence and not turned into a “look at me I’m a priest, welcome to MY parish” show. ***

You feel as we do.

***I totally know what the OP is getting at - it’s hard to find that middle ground, but I think we are very blessed to have found our parish. Even if it is a bit of a drive for us, and pray we don’t get caught by the train trying to get there!! ***

Yeah, I suppose I just need to get used to this state of affairs. 3 years we’ve been doing this, I suppose we can do it for many more.

 

[lizaanne]

Yeah, I suppose I just need to get used to this state of affairs. 3 years we’ve been doing this, I suppose we can do it for many more.

We just don’t even let ourselves get into any angst over it - it’s not worth it. We consider our parish to be our parish, and the fact that I have to drive out of my way to get to it is of no consequence. We had way too much frustration when trying to attend typical “Saint Suburbia” parishes that water down the sacrifice of the Mass so much you wonder if anyone really even knows why they are there in the first place (even the priest). It was just easer to move on and find a place we feel welcome with our views, and our priest agrees with them.

Fortunately “our views” are totally in line with the Church - funny how it works out that way.

~Liza

 

[Neil_Anthony]

---

They were chosen by God to shepherd your city / diocese. They have Holy Orders.***

Like I don’t know this. He’s still a tool.

You still have the choice to just say nothing, rather than saying something insulting. When you insult that bishop, you’re defaming not just him but the whole Church

 

[Howard_Roark]

Well, thank goodness I didn’t defame the Church as much as St. John Chrysostom who said that the floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bad bishops.

Seriously, though, what defames the Church is the actions of bad bishops, not our pointing them out. Mahoney, Mahoney, Mahoney.

 

[dprewett]

You still have the choice to just say nothing, rather than saying something insulting. When you insult that bishop, you’re defaming not just him but the whole Church

I to think that calling the Bishop a tool is a bit out of line. That being said what are we as laity supposed to do when things are being done in our parish that go against tradition, the faith, or the rules set out by the churh itself. Every time I see someone bring up a problem in their parish, someone chimes in that it is not ther right and to stop being a police force of some sort. I am lucky to have a great parish not many miles from my house, but when I travel things in other parishes are out of control. My last vactation the priest had no problem with people walking around and having full conversations durring Mass. I tried to make a quiet exit after mass (most people left after communion and were making alot of noise outside) the priest stopped me saying hello to a new face and asked what I thought of there barnd new church. He looked quite shocked that I had trouble prayng with all the noise. He said their tradition was to have the community come to together durring communion. At which point I feared I may have entered a non-Catholic church an ask him if they were in communion with rome. At this he looked completely shocked and walked off. I did not mean to offend him I just needed to Know if I had to go find a Mass somewhere else. I believe that the Roman Catholic church is on a serious slide whenever someone brings this up it is somhow un christian our catholic to question a priest or bishop. My question is what is to be done? I love the catholic church, I have no problem with the post vat2 mass, I love all my friends in our parish, I no want need our desire to leave the church or change it to suit my desires. I just want I to follow the rules and traditions which the pope and the Holy see set forth for us through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I do not need an ex hippi dancing around like a lunatic at mass. After Mass people should go to the rec center have a stout beer and sing Lord Of the Dance all after noon if they wish. I tried to stay on topic I think I missed somewhere along the line. I love all my Catholic brothers and sisters no matter what your point of view but please do not shut down someone for voicing their’s by saying just go along with the flow.

By the way I have never been to a Latin Mass and would probably feel completely lost there. I hope to go soon as there is one in our town. Could someone give me a good simple reference to look at before I attend
Thanks

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I to think that calling the Bishop a tool is a bit out of line. That being said what are we as laity supposed to do when things are being done in our parish that go against tradition, the faith, or the rules set out by the churh itself.

You can complain, but be objective and respectful to the offices of the people, and keep things private if possible to avoid scandal. For example, one could say “I wish our bishop would use more orthodox textbooks for catechism classes instead of such and such a text” instead of “the bishop is a tool”