Between So. Baptist & Catholic: What's my status?

[Montgomeryatty]

I’m a member of a Southern Baptist Church, although for months (probably over a year by now) I’ve been slowly exploring the Catholic faith. In the past month or more, my convictions have been getting stronger towards Rome. As I have been exploring, however, I realize the wide chasm between the viewpoint of most Baptists (once saved always saved) and the viewpoint of Catholics (possible, and probable, that at some point, all Christians of any duration will fall from grace through mortal sin and need to be restored to the faith).

I have a few questions playing off of this:

(1) I have been a baptized Christian for some 17 years. Even under Roman Catholic teaching, when I believed and was baptized I was truly saved. But I’ve never been to confession, and I’ve most assuredly committed mortal sin. So does this mean that from that 1st mortal sin after baptism, I’ve not been in a state of grace? Or does the Church teach differently concerning people outside of the Church who have no idea that they need to confess their sins to a priest and who have done their best to confess sins to God directly, thinking that that was the only “method” available?

(2) At the moment that I accept (I may already be here, btw) the fullness of Catholic teaching, accept that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church, etc., does this somehow change my “status”? I’m already baptized (let’s assume, but see question #3 below for more on this), so I presume the “baptism of intent” is a non-starter for me. Am I quite literally “on my own” until I enter into communion with the Church and am allowed to confess my sins and receive absolution?

(3) I don’t recall the intricate details of my baptism, but based on baptisms of others that I’ve seen in virtually every SBC church I’ve attended, I strongly doubt that the Trinity was invoked in my baptism. Most preachers simply say something like “I baptise you my brother [sometimes adding] in the name of Jesus. Dead to sin, and raised to walk in newness of life.” So I suppose without assurance one way or the other, I would be a candidate for “conditional baptism.” Does this affect the answer to either of the first two questions? Maybe this might mean I have been baptised by intent? Or that I will become so upon beginning RCIA?

 

[Gamera]

I believe that only a Trinitarian baptism (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is valid. But if there’s any question what formula was used in your case, why not ask the minister who baptized you?

As far as returning to grace as a Protestant, you could have been reconciled with God and restored to grace if you repented with perfect contrition (sorrow for sin because you love God). Imperfect contrition, however, wouldn’t suffice (fear of hell, hatred of sin, etc).

 

[Montgomeryatty]

So IF I wasn’t validly baptised, then I obviously desire to be validly baptised. But that can’t happen until I’m accepted into communion with the Church. So does the moment I realize my need for a valid baptism constitute the moment at which I was baptised by desire? Or is it the moment I act on that realization by actually speaking to a priest about RCIA? Or some other moment? Is there a clear answer to this?

 

[puzzleannie]

So IF I wasn’t validly baptised, then I obviously desire to be validly baptised. But that can’t happen until I’m accepted into communion with the Church. So does the moment I realize my need for a valid baptism constitute the moment at which I was baptised by desire? Or is it the moment I act on that realization by actually speaking to a priest about RCIA? Or some other moment? Is there a clear answer to this?

you “status” now is inquirer, someone who is doing exactly as you have done, reading more about the CC, asking questions, especially about areas that pose a problem for you. If you approach your nearest Catholic Church now you will probably be put in a rather informal “class” with others from various backgrounds, some baptized, some not, who are also questioning. Your teachers will try to go over some of the basic teachings and “frequently asked questions” with general information about what Catholics believe, the Mass, Mary and the Saints, sacraments etc. This period lasts as long as you want it too (years for some people, a week for others).

When you decide to make a commitment to prepare for reception into the Catholic Church you will join the RCIA process. If you read the discussions on RCIA on the evangelization forum, you will see this program operates differently in different parishes, but is the same in essentials.

If you are baptized (and the pastor will review the facts of your baptism to see if it is valid because Baptist ceremonies are problematic since they vary so much in practice) you will be a candidate, if not, a catechumen. RCIA has three main components, formal instruction or catechesis on doctrine, “Breaking Open the Word” a teaching and discussion based on the Sunday scripture readings, and various rites that punctuate the process and mark milestones in continuing conversion and interior growth. this period of the catechumenate (or continuing conversion) also “takes as long as it takes” but it should be no less than one year, from right now, beginning of Lent, to Lent of the following year. You should be able to “jump in” at any point you are ready and continue your journey year round, but as I say, actual practice varies.

When you, your director, catechist and pastoral leader decide you are ready to enter the Church, you celebrate the Rite of Election at the beginning of Lent, when the Bishop formally calls you and the other catechumens and welcomes you personally. You prepare during Lent–the Period of Purification and Englightenment-- for the sacraments of Christian initiation, which are celebrated at the Easter Vigil (the most awesome liturgy you have ever seen) that is baptism, confirmation and first communion. Lent is also the time for certain minor rites which are meant to facilitate the conversion process and prepare you for Easter.

If you are already baptized, candidates also have parallel rites of Lent, make a profession of faith and are confirmed, either at Easter or some other suitable time, and make first communion. You will be prepared for and make your first confession sometime before this happens.

for questions on RCIA, go to the evangelization forum

for questions on your current status, go to the pastor of your nearest Catholic Church and ask to discuss the situation.

When you are ready to commit to entering the Church

 

[rciadan]

And that, from Puzzle Annie, is as clear and succinct an answer as can be given. I will add, as one who has gone through the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults),that there is no way you can be prepared for the beauty and excitment and awesome spiritual growth that you will experience on that journey to Divine unity with God and His Bride, the Church so, just take that leap of faith and take the first step!

 

[Della]

I’m a member of a Southern Baptist Church, although for months (probably over a year by now) I’ve been slowly exploring the Catholic faith. In the past month or more, my convictions have been getting stronger towards Rome. As I have been exploring, however, I realize the wide chasm between the viewpoint of most Baptists (once saved always saved) and the viewpoint of Catholics (possible, and probable, that at some point, all Christians of any duration will fall from grace through mortal sin and need to be restored to the faith).

Actually, no Christian needs to commit mortal sin and fall from grace (there are examples of people who never did, such as St. Therese of Lisieux). You simply have not had the benefit of the Sacraments to help you live out your faith in Christ.

I have a few questions playing off of this:

(1) I have been a baptized Christian for some 17 years. Even under Roman Catholic teaching, when I believed and was baptized I was truly saved. But I’ve never been to confession, and I’ve most assuredly committed mortal sin. So does this mean that from that 1st mortal sin after baptism, I’ve not been in a state of grace? Or does the Church teach differently concerning people outside of the Church who have no idea that they need to confess their sins to a priest and who have done their best to confess sins to God directly, thinking that that was the only “method” available?

Non-Catholics who do not know the definition of mortal sin are not culpable of those sins. You have to know what the sin is, want to commit it, and commit it with free will and intention.

(2) At the moment that I accept (I may already be here, btw) the fullness of Catholic teaching, accept that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church, etc., does this somehow change my “status”? I’m already baptized (let’s assume, but see question #3 below for more on this), so I presume the “baptism of intent” is a non-starter for me. Am I quite literally “on my own” until I enter into communion with the Church and am allowed to confess my sins and receive absolution?

You are not “on your own.” Since you have the desire to enter into communion with the Church what would save you in case of your demise is the “baptism of desire.” If your baptism is valid in the eyes of the Church, you would be saved through that baptism. You will not need to confess your sins until you have been received into the Church.

(3) I don’t recall the intricate details of my baptism, but based on baptisms of others that I’ve seen in virtually every SBC church I’ve attended, I strongly doubt that the Trinity was invoked in my baptism. Most preachers simply say something like “I baptise you my brother [sometimes adding] in the name of Jesus. Dead to sin, and raised to walk in newness of life.” So I suppose without assurance one way or the other, I would be a candidate for “conditional baptism.” Does this affect the answer to either of the first two questions? Maybe this might mean I have been baptised by intent? Or that I will become so upon beginning RCIA?

Yes, you would receive a conditional baptism. And a baptism of desire covers those who wished to enter the Church but couldn’t for good cause.

You really ought to talk to a priest about these issues and enter RCIA. You will be under no obligation to enter the Church by attending RCIA. At a point in the process you will be asked to discern if you want to go on to being received into the Church. You can freely and without prejudice decide not to if you don’t think it is for you.

 

[Moneo]

Hello Montgomery,

I was a convert to Christianity in a Southern Baptist congregation prior to my conversion to the Catholic Faith, when I was a teenager (and I am now long past THAT …GBP! … being a teenager I mean … ), so seeing your questions certainly brings back a few memories of the sorts of questions that I had “back in the day.” So let me jump in here and see if I can help:

(1) I have been a baptized Christian for some 17 years. Even under Roman Catholic teaching, when I believed and was baptized I was truly saved.

Ooops! Not quite … when you believed and were baptised, you entered into communion with Christ (or fellowship if you prefer the more familiar Protestant term). *Saved *remains to be seen … but that’s true for all of us who are still on the journey.

But I’ve never been to confession, and I’ve most assuredly committed mortal sin. So does this mean that from that 1st mortal sin after baptism, I’ve not been in a state of grace? Or does the Church teach differently concerning people outside of the Church who have no idea that they need to confess their sins to a priest and who have done their best to confess sins to God directly, thinking that that was the only “method” available?

1. At the moment that I accept … the fullness of Catholic teaching, accept that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church, etc., does this somehow change my “status”? I’m already baptized … so I presume the “baptism of intent” is a non-starter for me. Am I quite literally “on my own” until I enter into communion with the Church and am allowed to confess my sins and receive absolution?

Most important to remember here: for a person to be considered guilty of mortal sin, three conditions must be met: 1) the action must be gravely sinful, 2) you must know that it is gravely sinful and 3) you must freely choose to have committed it knowing that it was and what consequences this sin brings (i.e., loss of God’s sanctifying grace). Only if all three of those conditions have been met are you guilty of the mortal sin. So you may have indeed committed mortal sin somewhere along the way–OBJECTIVELY speaking. But subjectively, you would only be guilty of committing a sin in the degree that your conscience understood the action be sinful at the time you committed.

A good example of this would be a sin of impurity such as masturbation. Nowadays, many regard this as normal, healthy and no big deal. But the Church teaches that it is a seriously disordered act which distorts God’s gift of sexuality and, when done with this knowledge in mind and full freedom of the will, it is a mortal sin. But if a person doesn’t know what mortal sin is or had never heard that masturbation is such a sin, then the subjective sinfulness of the act is eliminated altogether.

I think you see the point. You cannot be guilty of committing a mortal sin without knowing you’re doing it. Since you did not understand mortal sin until you began exploring the Faith, then you cannot be charged with deliberately committing a mortal sin.

Regarding going to confession, as well as your current status having accepted the fullness of truth, the same principle applies. One can’t be expected to avail himself of a sacrament he doesn’t even know is necessary! Please remember that though Christ is the Author of the sacraments and has willed them as the ordinary channels of His grace to us, He is not limited to using those channels in the case of people who neither know of them nor understand why they ought to receive them even though they are seeking Him. So yes, your repentance and your asking God for His forgiveness while you were outside His Church would certainly be sufficient for God to restore you to the state of grace.

Once you realise the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ established and willed as the means of salvation for all peoples however, then yes your status has changed. You would have to act on that knowledge and enter the Church. To willfully remain outside her would be a mortal sin because it would entail a rejection of Christ’s will.

By the way, I had similar concerns about Confession. I was so eager to receive the Sacrament of Penance after I learned about it in my catechism classes with the parish priest that I impulsively went to confession one afternoon when I spotted a priest in the confessional while visiting a church in a different town. I hadn’t understood that I had to wait for baptism first!

Finally, with regard to your baptism: a conditional baptism is your best option. My parish priest at the time I entered the Church was certain that the Baptist formula used when I was baptised had been valid, but since I could not remember precisely, it was I (thorough little 16 year old that I was) who insisted on the conditional baptism to eliminate any sort of doubt. So, don’t spend any more time worrying about it is my advice, simply tell your parish priest that you would like to be conditionally baptised for your own peace of mind.

 

[Contarini]

(3) I don’t recall the intricate details of my baptism, but based on baptisms of others that I’ve seen in virtually every SBC church I’ve attended, I strongly doubt that the Trinity was invoked in my baptism.

Interesting. I don’t recall a single SB baptism that didn’t invoke the Trinity. I myself was baptized in a lake by an SB pastor (against Baptist principles–my parents and I wanted to be baptized but did not want to join a local church, which I now think was a horrible decision, but the pastor went along with it). I know that the Trinity was invoked in our case. I’m very surprised by what you say.

Edwin

 

[Montgomeryatty]

Edwin:

As I said, my memory of my own baptism is fuzzy, so the Trinity may have been invoked. And maybe I simply tune out those words in more recent SBC Baptisms I’ve witnessed. I intend to call the minister who baptised me and ask about his traditional practice.

Moneo:

Good catch on the “saved” versus “into communion with Christ.” I do agree with that, just slipped into my (I can’t take credit for this, don’t remember who coined it) “microwave Jesus” mentality (i.e., 30 seconds and its done) .

Moneo & Della:
I understand what y’all say about not knowing the sin is mortal. But since I’ve been exploring Catholicism for some time now, I think it is safe to assume that somewhere in there since learning about mortal/venial sin, I’ve committed some mortal sin. And I wasn’t saying that it was impossible for a person to commit mortal sin, but only that it was probable. And I think citing rare instances such as St. Therese demonstrates that although there are indeed exceptions, the vast majority of us are still just a little too weak to withstand temptation at some point or another.

It is interesting, but as frightening as is the notion of mortal sin to a lifelong Protestant, that’s one of the underlying reasons I find Catholicism credible. My entire life I’ve always quietly questioned (despite my Baptist heritage) the Baptist teaching that the sins of a Christian are irrelevant to retaining salvation. That teaching perhaps seems logical when you’re talking about maybe a little too much pride in yourself for an accomplishment. But when you tell an outright lie or when you find yourself lusting, it always seemed painfully artificial and unnatural to suggest that these sins didn’t in some way damper or intrude on one’s relationship with Christ. I find no joy in the notion that one slip up could potentially land me eternally separated from Christ. But given that I now accept the Church’s teaching that such is the “situation on the ground,” I am obliged to obey, and obey I intend to do.

There may be little efficacy in it, or perhaps this may be the exactly correct approach: Until I’m able to enter into communion with the Church, I’ve put more emphasis on noting/remembering my sins and confessing them to God. If I can’t partake of the sacrament of confession to achieve a “tangible” forgiveness, I’ll at least do my best to show contrition and seek God’s forgiveness.

 

[Della]

It is interesting, but as frightening as is the notion of mortal sin to a lifelong Protestant, that’s one of the underlying reasons I find Catholicism credible. My entire life I’ve always quietly questioned (despite my Baptist heritage) the Baptist teaching that the sins of a Christian are irrelevant to retaining salvation. That teaching perhaps seems logical when you’re talking about maybe a little too much pride in yourself for an accomplishment. But when you tell an outright lie or when you find yourself lusting, it always seemed painfully artificial and unnatural to suggest that these sins didn’t in some way damper or intrude on one’s relationship with Christ. I find no joy in the notion that one slip up could potentially land me eternally separated from Christ. But given that I now accept the Church’s teaching that such is the “situation on the ground,” I am obliged to obey, and obey I intend to do.

Although the Assemblies of God doesn’t officially teach OSAS, many of its people subscribe to it, and having come from the background, I know just what you mean. I never could accept the notion that telling a little white lie was on the same level as mass murder, either. But, no one can simply slip and destroy his relationship with Christ. In order for one to be culpable of mortal sin one has to do it deliberately–in defiance of Christ and his Church. Not to say that it is impossible for a good Christian to commit mortal sin, but it’s not all that easy, either.

There may be little efficacy in it, or perhaps this may be the exactly correct approach: Until I’m able to enter into communion with the Church, I’ve put more emphasis on noting/remembering my sins and confessing them to God. If I can’t partake of the sacrament of confession to achieve a “tangible” forgiveness, I’ll at least do my best to show contrition and seek God’s forgiveness.

That’s a good attitude to have, but once you do take your sins to a priest for forgiveness, you’ll find that the Catholic faith is much more about mercy than a strict adherence to rules. IOW, don’t talk yourself into scrupulosity before you’ve even been to your first confession.

 

[Moneo]

Moneo & Della:
I understand what y’all say about not knowing the sin is mortal. But since I’ve been exploring Catholicism for some time now, I think it is safe to assume that somewhere in there since learning about mortal/venial sin, I’ve committed some mortal sin. And I wasn’t saying that it was impossible for a person to commit mortal sin, but only that it was probable. And I think citing rare instances such as St. Therese demonstrates that although there are indeed exceptions, the vast majority of us are still just a little too weak to withstand temptation at some point or another.

Hello again Montgomery,

I appreciate all that you’re saying, and please believe me, your desire to express your contrition for your sins and receive God’s mercy is beyond admirable …

but …

*Please *don’t make the mistake of projecting backward into the past what you know now. And “it’s safe to assume that somewhere in there” isn’t enough! A very wise and holy spiritual director of mine once taught me a rule of thumb to follow: if there is doubt in your mind as to whether or not you’ve committed a mortal sin, you have not! Again, for one to be guilty of mortal sin a) tha action must be mortally sinful, b) one must know that it is mortally sinful, and c) one must freely choose to do it anyway.

Yes, now that you are aware of the existence of mortal sin you need to avoid it as do all Christians. But until such time as you have been formally received into the Church and are able to licitly partake in the Sacrament of Penance, be at peace. Make frequent acts of contrition for your past sins, offer some voluntary penance if you wish, but TRUST IN GOD’S MERCY above all. Then, once you have been received into the Church (may it be soon! ), you will make your first confession and all of God’s angels and saints will rejoice with you because you have come home to the Father’s house!

But until then, please, please, please … BE AT PEACE my friend. Do not succumb to the temptation of being scrupulous and obsessing over potential past sins. Trust in Our Lord.

God bless you!

 

[homewardbound]

I have a questionnot meaning to take away from OP)

I was also raised Baptist and was baptized when I was 8. My baptismal certificate says I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I don’t remember if those words were actually said. Any baptism I’ve seen and can remember haven’t said those words. If it says it on my certificate I guess it probably means it was said, but what if it wasn’t?

 

[blackrobe]

Your answer is in Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church promulgated by Vatican II:

1. . . . Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude, Mother Church already embraces them as her own.
   * * *

All subsequent questions will be resolved as you progress through the RCIA program.

Welcome home.

JSA

 

[jmm08]

Your answer is in Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church promulgated by Vatican II:

1. . . . Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude, Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

---

All subsequent questions will be resolved as you progress through the RCIA program.

Welcome home.

JSA

Thank you. I often feel a bit between myself (and generally still didn’t know exactly where I was). I completed RCIA two Easters ago, often pray the Rosary and sing in the choir at the vigil Mass each week. But I was still quite uncertain of my actual relationship with the Catholic Church. This answer confirms my better hopes.