Between the testaments silent years

[Big_Dummy]

The apocryphal books themselves make reference to what we call the Silent 400 years, where there was no prophets of God to write inspired materials.

And they laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a convenient place, till there should come a prophet, and give answer concerning them. (1 Maccabees 4:46)

And there was a great tribulation in Israel, such as was not since the day, that there was no prophet seen in Israel. (1 Maccabees 9:27)

And that the Jews, and their priests, had consented that he should be their prince, and high priest for ever, till there should arise a faithful prophet. (1 Maccabees 14:41)

“From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets.” … “We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine…”(Flavius Josephus, Against Apion 1:8)

Josephus spoke concerning the canon, but his book division combined Ruth-Judges and Lamentation-Jeremiah for a total of 22 books rather than 24:

“For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, … only 22 books. which contain the records of ail the past times; which are justly believed to be divine;…It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers;…and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add anything to them, or to make any change in them.” (Flavius Josephus Against Apion Book 1, Section 8).

Our Rabbis taught: the order of the Prophets is Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the Twelve ……….; The order of the Ketuvim is Ruth, the Book of Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, Lamentations, Daniel, the Scroll of Esther, Ezra and Chronicles.

Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Bathra 14b

Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary.

Luke 11:49-51 (RSV)

Prophets and Prophecy
jewfaq.org/prophet.htm

Where are the Jewish Prophets today?

 

[NHInsider]

Isn’t this the third thread you’ve started on this topic in the last couple of weeks?

 

[Big_Dummy]

For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another [as the Greeks have], but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This internal of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes, king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life.

Josephus, Against Apion 1:8 (38-40)

While Josephus mentioned twenty-two books (equal to the present twenty-four books of Jewish Scripture if we combine Ruth with Judges and Lamentations with Jeremiah) in three divisions, the number of books in the second and third division differs with the present Jewish Scripture.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Isn’t this the third thread you’ve started on this topic in the last couple of weeks?

The other two were dragged off topic, thus the third thread — hoping people will stay on topic.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Big,

The absence of prophets couild be interpreted as a sign that the One they prefigured was at hand. Then came John the Baptist the prophet above all prophets who introduced Him to us.

Verbum

 

[Big_Dummy]

Malachi 4:5-6 (New International Version, ©2010)

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

That’s possible.

Would we not expect that there would be more prophets within Judaism which would be added to scripture since then? I mean our Jewish friends are still looking for Elijah right?
So, the silent years form their perspective is a lot more then just the 400 Years.

 

[Vince1022]

Where are the Jewish Prophets today?

I don’t know. Ask the Jews?

 

[Big_Dummy]

I don’t know. Ask the Jews?

As a Jew myself, we believe like Josephus that prophecy and new books of revelation ceased.

As a Christian I believe that revelation started up again with Jesus and also, ceased with the book of Revelations. Hebrews 1 tells us that Jesus is the final revelation.

I must admit I am curious as the traditions about Jesus the catholic church or catholics claims to have. But, none have been posted that I know of other than the claim that Jesus was in his 50s when he died.

The canon of the Old and New Testaments ascertained: or, The Bible complete … By Archibald Alexander
books.google.com/books?id=n-EsAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+canon+of+the+Old+and+New+Testaments+ascertained%3B+or+The+Bible+complete+without+the+Apocrypha+and+unwritten+traditions.+By+Archibald+Alexander&hl=en&ei=Uln-TIHqFJCInAew0dSBCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Big_Dummy]

Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.), despite the fact that his lifespan was only a total of 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7).

 

[Big_Dummy]

Our Rabbis taught: The order of the Prophets is, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the Twelve Minor Prophets. Let us examine this. Hosea came first, as it is written, God spake first to Hosea.11 But did God speak first to Hosea? Were there not many prophets between Moses and Hosea? R. Johanan, however, has explained that [what It means is that] he was the first of the four prophets who prophesied at that period,12 namely, Hosea, Isaiah, Amos and Micah. Should not then Hosea come first? — Since his prophecy is written along with13 those of Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi, and Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi came at the end of the prophets, he is reckoned with them. But why should he not be written separately and placed first? — Since his book is so small, it might be lost [if copied separately]. Let us see again. Isaiah was prior to Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Then why should not Isaiah be placed first? — Because the Book of Kings ends with a record of destruction and Jeremiah speaks throughout of destruction and Ezekiel commences with destruction and ends with consolation and Isaiah is full of consolation;14 therefore we put destruction next to destruction and consolation next to consolation.

The order of the Hagiographa is Ruth, the Book of Psalms, Job, Prophets, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Lamentations, Daniel and the Scroll of Esther, Ezra and Chronicles.15 Now on the view that Job lived in the days of Moses, should not the book of Job come first? — We do not begin with a record of suffering. But Ruth also is a record of suffering?16 — It is a suffering with a sequel [of happiness], as R. Johanan said: Why was her name called Ruth? — Because there issued from her David who replenished17 the Holy One, blessed be He, with hymns and praises.

Who wrote the Scriptures? — Moses wrote his own book and the portion of Balaam18 and Job. Joshua wrote the book which bears his name and [the last] eight verses of the Pentateuch.19 Samuel wrote the book which bears his name and the Book of Judges and Ruth. David wrote the Book of Psalms, including in it the work of the elders, namely, Adam, Melchizedek, Abraham, Moses, Heman, Yeduthun, Asaph,

come-and-hear.com/bababathra/bababathra_14.html

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1025&letter=B&search=Apocrypha

 

[Big_Dummy]

Above was 14b

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Baba Bathra

Folio 15a
and the three sons of Korah.1 Jeremiah wrote the book which bears his name, the Book of Kings, and Lamentations. Hezekiah and his colleagues wrote (Mnemonic YMSHK)2 Isaiah,3 Proverbs,4 the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. The Men of the Great Assembly wrote (Mnemonic KNDG)5 Ezekiel,6 the Twelve Minor Prophets,7 Daniel and the Scroll of Esther. Ezra wrote the book that bears his name8 and the genealogies of the Book of Chronicles up to his own time. This confirms the opinion of Rab, since Rab Judah has said in the name of Rab: Ezra did not leave Babylon to go up to Eretz Yisrael until he had written his own genealogy. Who then finished it [the Book of Chronicles]? — Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah.

The Master has said: Joshua wrote the book which bears his name and the last eight verses of the Pentateuch. This statement is in agreement with the authority who says that eight verses in the Torah were written by Joshua, as it has been taught: [It is written], So Moses the servant of the Lord died there.9 Now is it possible that Moses being dead could have written the words, ‘Moses died there’? The truth is, however, that up to this point Moses wrote, from this point Joshua wrote. This is the opinion of R. Judah, or, according to others, of R. Nehemiah. Said R. Simeon to him: Can [we imagine the] scroll of the Law being short of one word, and is it not written, Take this book of the Law?10 No; what we must say is that up to this point the Holy One, blessed be He, dictated and Moses repeated and wrote, and from this point God dictated and Moses wrote with tears, as it says of another occasion, Then Baruch answered them, He pronounced all these words to me with his mouth, and I wrote them with ink in the book.11 Which of these two authorities is followed in the rule laid down by R. Joshua b. Abba which he said in the name of R. Giddal who said it in the name of Rab: The last eight verses of the Torah must be read [in the Synagogue service] by one person alone?12 — It follows R. Judah and not R. Simeon. I may even say, however, that it follows R. Simeon, [who would say that] since they differ [from the rest of the Torah] in one way, they differ in another.

[You say that] Joshua wrote his book. But is it not written, And Joshua son of Nun the servant of the Lord died?13 — It was completed by Eleazar. But it is also written in it, And Eleazar the son of Aaron died?14 — Phineas finished it. [You say that] Samuel wrote the book that bears his name. But is it not written in it, Now Samuel was dead?15 — It was completed by Gad the seer and Nathan the prophet. [You say that] David wrote the Psalms, including work of the ten elders. Why is not Ethan the Ezrahite also reckoned with? — Ethan the Ezrahite is Abraham. [The proof is that] it is written in the Psalms, Ethan the Ezrahite,16 and it is written elsewhere, Who hath raised up righteousness from the East.17

come-and-hear.com/bababathra/bababathra_15.html

 

[Big_Dummy]

One of the main influential scholars covering the issue of the canon of the Jewish Scriptures was Dr. Otto Eissfeldt (1887–1973) who published The Old Testament, An Introduction subtitled “The History of the Formation of the Old Testament”. It was translated from the German by Peter R Ackroyd a Professor of Old Testament Studies, King’s College, London in 1965, and covered 861 pages. In his book Eissfeldt had drawn together much of the previous work in this field. Some of the conclusions are dated such as the reliance upon the hypothesis of a Council of Jamnia (see infra), which requires only a slight adjustment in reading.[clarification needed] Such authors as Michael Barber provide an adequate correction to the dated material. Never-the-less, Eissfeldt’s work remains a useful tool in understanding how the canon emerged.

The theory that the Jewish Canon was closed at a Council of Jamnia about 90 CE was first proposed by Heinrich Graetz in 1871 and became a consensus. W. M. Christie was the first to dispute this popular theory in the July 1925 edition of the Journal of Theological Studies in an article entitled The Jamnia Period in Jewish History. Next, Jack P. Lewis wrote a critique of the popular consensus in the April 1964 edition of the Journal of Bible and Religion entitled What Do We Mean by Jabneh? Raymond E. Brown largely supported Lewis in his review published in Jerome Bible Commentary (JBC) 1968 which also appears in the New Jerome Bible Commentary of 1990. Sid Z. Leiman made an independent challenge for his University of Pennsylvania thesis published later as a book in 1976. Other scholars have since joined in such that today the theory is largely discredited.[7]

McDonald & Sanders, editors, The Canon Debate, 2002, chapter 9: Jamnia Revisited by Jack P. Lewis.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Jewish_Bible_canon

 

[Vince1022]

As a Jew myself, we believe like Josephus that prophecy and new books of revelation ceased.

As a Christian

Thanks for responding. I am a bit curious, and confused…and this may be off topic so feel free to ignore it…but are you responding as a Christian, or a Jew? As far as I know one can’t be both.

I believe that revelation started up again with Jesus and also, ceased with the book of Revelations. Hebrews 1 tells us that Jesus is the final revelation.

For Catholic Church teaching on this, please see the Catechism para 65-67 (which also refers to Hebrews 1). Also, note, the Biblical book is “Revelation” not “Revelations.”

I must admit I am curious as the traditions about Jesus the catholic church or catholics claims to have. But, none have been posted that I know of other than the claim that Jesus was in his 50s when he died.

Much of the traditions the Catholic Church has comes from the Bible, of course. Nothing in the Bible or Catholic teaching suggests Jesus was in his 50s when he died.

I don’t understand the relevance of your citing a book from 1826.

 

[Vince1022]

Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.), despite the fact that his lifespan was only a total of 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7).

No, the book of Tobit does not claim that Tobit was alive in 931 BC. Yes, the book of Judith is historically inaccurate regarding Nebuchadnezzar.

So…this relates to the original post how? Thanks.

 

[Big_Dummy]

I am a former Jew, who is now a Jewish Christian.

In Catholic tradition, they call themselves Hebrew Christians — there is some interresting reading there.

 

[Vince1022]

I am a former Jew, who is now a Jewish Christian.

In Catholic tradition, they call themselves Hebrew Christians — there is some interresting reading there.

What Catholic tradition are you referring to? Thanks.

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

There are evidences of a continued use of this apocryphal literature in rabbinic literature of later times. Sirach is quoted three times in the Talmud as scripture. It is twice quoted with the introductory formula, "for so it is written in the Book of Ben Sira."35 Ben Sira is also sometimes quoted as “Writings” when the rabbis were proof-texting, e.g., "This matter is written in the Pentateuch as written. . . , repeated in the Prophets, as written. . . , mentioned a third time in the Hagiographa, as written, (here Sirach 12.15 is quoted), it was learned in the Mishnah, . . . ."36 Pfeiffer (1941:66) tells us that the Hebrew text of Sirach was still being copied as late as the twelfth century C.E. It is cited by name in Sanhedrin 100b (= Yeb. 63c), which quotes several verses. According to L. Israel (1905:390) single verses appear in: Yer. Ber. 11b; Yer. Hag. 77c; Yer. Ta’an. 66d; Hag. 13a; Niddah 16b; Gen. R. 8, 10, 73; Lev. R. 33; Tan. Wayishlah 8; Tan., Mikkez. 10; Tan. Hukkat. 1; etc.

department.monm.edu/classics/speel_festschrift/sundbergjr.htm

 

[Big_Dummy]

Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.), despite the fact that his lifespan was only a total of 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7).

931-722=209

Tobit 14:16 And after he had lived ninety-nine years in the fear of the Lord, with joy they buried him. drbo.org/chapter/17014.htm

Tobit 14:14 He died at the venerable age of a hundred and seventeen.
usccb.org/nab/bible/tobit/tobit14.htm

" And he died at Ecbatane in Media, being an hundred and seven and twenty years old."
biblicalproportions.com/modules/ol_bible/King_James_Bible/Tobit/14/
catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=17&bible_chapter=14

The 158 translation is here,
books.google.com/books?id=elg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Tobit+14+one+hundred+fifty+eight&source=bl&ots=oug5nZkG1a&sig=KH7eJ6LNrQTiCVVE5Ju3fXyB3sk&hl=en&ei=CX8CTdKFHIe6ngfm_7DlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Tobit%2014%20one%20hundred%20fifty%20eight&f=false

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

Ages and ,numbers vary with the rest of the Hebrew Bible, even the masoretic text contradicts itself a few times and then we have other manuscripts that say otherwise like the LXX and DSS

 

[Big_Dummy]

I was not out to say there were contradictions between translations, only showing where the 158 years figure came from and why someone may think it is wrong because other translations differ.

the difficultly of numbers deals with most of the contradictions on this link below, I am curious as to the answer to

Judith’s lineage through the line of her father:

Book Of Judith (CPDV)catholicplanet.com/TSM/introduction-CPDV.htm
Book Of Judith (NRSV)

Judith 8:1: CPDV:

Merari
Idox
Joseph
Oziel
Elai
Jamnor
Gideo
Raphaim
Ahitub
Melchiel
Enan
Nathaniel
Salathiel
Simeon
Ruben

Judith 8:1: NRSV:

Merari
Ox
Joseph
Oziel
Elkiah
Ananias
Gideon
Raphain
Ahitub
Elijah
Hilkiah
Eliab
Nathanael
Salamiel
Sarasadai
Israel

Elai is a variation of Elkiah, which means they are the same person. “son of Elkiah [var. Elai].” (A Revised History of the Era of King Hezekiah of Judah and its Background).

A few contradictions here:

i) Is Elkiah’s father Jamnor (Judith 1:8 - CPDV) or Amanias (Judith 1:8 - NRSV)?
ii) Is Ahitub’s father Melchiel (Judith 1:8 - CPDV) or Elijah (Judith 1:8 - NRSV)?

islamic-replies.ucoz.com/2/Contra_Apocrypha_Books.html — scroll down to 11 to see the highlighting.

give this a read and let me know what errors you see in their facts, logic
apuritansmind.com/apologetics/ApocryphaArticle4.htm

Concerning the sanburg link, that looks interresting, I’ll print and read. Off the top of my head, the fact that the Talmud does give an exact list of what books are part of scripture over rides someone’s opinion that the Talmud is quoting a book as scripture.

However posted that link, could you kindly list the chapters in the Talmud you believes is quoting the extra books as scripture? thanks

I already looked at 100a and that is not quoting Sirach as scripture that I can see,
come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_100.html