Between the testaments silent years

[Big_Dummy]

It is even so with thee: if thou art thus astonished at the reward wherewith18 requited that wicked man for the four steps which he ran in my honour,24 how much more when I give their due reward to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who ran before me like horses ! Hence it is written, My heart within me is broken because of the prophets;25 all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome; because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness.26

note 25 reads, I.e., Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: I am filled with wonderment at the magnitude of their reward. Maharsha explains this more naturally: My heart is broken because of the false prophets, who assure Israel that Nebuchadnezzar will not meet with success in Palestine, being a greater sinner than the Jews. But that is a false hope: he shall be rewarded with victory on account of the four steps which he ran in God’s honour.

come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_96.html#96a_25

google.com/#q=%22it+is+written%22++site:http://www.come-and-hear.com/&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&prmd=ivns&ei=5tYMTeiQEI2YnweXx83ADg&start=90&sa=N&fp=7b989c6c17f79c85

It turns out that in the Talmud the phrase, “it is written” is simply equal to our way of saying quote today.

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&q=talmud+Maharsha&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=7b989c6c17f79c85

 

[Big_Dummy]

“The three oldest complete copies of the Greek Old Testament [Septuagint] that we have include different additional books. Codex Vaticanus (fourth century) omits 1 and 2 Maccabees, which is canonical according to the Roman Catholic Church, but also includes 1 Esdras, which the RCC rejects. Similarly, Codex Siniaticus (fourth century) leaves out Baruch, which RCC say is canonical, but includes 4 Maccabees, which they reject. Codex Alexandrinus (fifth century) includes three noncanonical apocryphal books, 1 Esdras and 3 and 4 maccabees. That certain books were included in these early Bibles wheras other books were not certainly indicates that inclusion alone does not prove their status as cannoical.” (Evidence Answers, & Christian Faith by Jimmy Williams pages 120-121.)

 

[Big_Dummy]

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate ‘Abodah Zarah

Folio 25a
[The same Rabbis also discuss the following:] And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed until the nation had avenged themselves of their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jashar. What is the book of Jashar? — Said R. Hiyya b. Abba in the name of R. Johanan: It is the book of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,

come-and-hear.com/zarah/zarah_25.html

Book of Jashar google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&q=Book+of+Jashar&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&aq=0s&aqi=g-s1g-sx3g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=e8de98ca5b405b41

It is written in the Book of Ben Sira: All the days of the poor11 are evil;12 but are there not the Sabbaths and festivals?13 — [The explanation, however, is] according to Samuel. For Samuel said: A change of diet is the beginning of bowel trouble.10 Ben Sira said: The nights also.14 Lower than [all] the roofs is his roof,15 and on the height of mountains is his vineyard,16 [so that] the rain of [other] roofs [pours down] upon his roof and the earth of his vineyard [is washed down] into the vineyards [of others].17

come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_110.html

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&q=Ben+Sira+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.come-and-hear.com%2F&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=e8de98ca5b405b41

It is written in the book of Ben Sira: —56

A good wife is a precious gift;57 she will be put in the bosom of the God-fearing man.58 A bad wife is a plague to her husband. What remedy has he? — Let him give her a letter of divorce and be healed of his plague.

A beautiful wife is a joy to her husband;59 the number of his days shall be double.60

Turn away thy eyes from [thy neighbour’s] charming wife lest thou be caught in her net. Do not turn in to her husband to mingle with him wine and strong drink; for, through the form of a beautiful woman, many were destroyed and a mighty host are all her slain.61

come-and-hear.com/yebamoth/yebamoth_63.html

Use the find feature of your browser to look for the word “book”
come-and-hear.com/supplement/so-daat-emet/en_gentiles5.html

R. Jacob b. Aha found it written in the scholars’2 Book of Aggada:3 A heathen is executed on the ruling of one judge, on the testimony of one witness, without a formal warning, on the evidence of a man, but not of a woman, even if he [the witness] be a relation. On the authority of R. Ishmael it was said: [He is executed] even for the murder of an embryo. Whence do we know all this? — Rab Judah answered: The Bible saith, And surely your blood of your lives will I require;4

Aggadah (or Haggadah, from nagad, to declare), means the whole non-legal portion of Jewish learning. Here however, an actual law is cited from the Book of Aggadah. In the T. J. and Midrashim, many statements cited in the T. B. as being from the Book of Aggadah of the schools, are those cited under the name of Noachian precepts. Hence it is possible that the reference is to a collection of laws relating to Gentiles, and in order to distinguish it from specifically Jewish laws, it was called the Book of Aggadah (Weiss, Dor, III, p. 158).

come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_57.html

come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_65.html

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&q=%22book+of%22++site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.come-and-hear.com%2F&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=e8de98ca5b405b41

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&q=%22book%22++site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.come-and-hear.com%2F&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=e8de98ca5b405b41

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1R2ADBF_en&q=%22written%22++site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.come-and-hear.com%2F&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=e8de98ca5b405b41

Gittin 21b
, because it is not possible to cut off the hand [and give it to her]. But where [it is written] on the horn of an ox [why need the ox be given to her]? Let the husband cut it off and give it to her? — Scripture says, He shall write and give to her.1 [This means that the Get must be on something] which requires only to be written on and to be given [to make it effective]: it excludes [something like] this which requires to be written on, to be cut off, and to be given [before it can become effective].

come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_21.html

If one studies the citation formulas, “it is written” does not neccessary mean that something is in fact being quoted as being scripture.

 

[Big_Dummy]

There is a statement in the talmud that “one who reads the book of Ben Sira has no portion in the world to come” The following qualification is given in a footnote,

In spite of the fact that the Bab. Tal. forbids the books of Ben Sira, it is evident from the discussion that all its contents were well-known, and Sira’s wisdom is frequently quoted by the Talmudists. It is also difficult to see why greater exception should be taken to Sira than to Homer. To obviate these difficulties the theory has been put forward that the prohibition is against reading these uncanonical works publicly, treating them as the Scripture and expounding them to the community. Private reading, however, would on this theory not come within the ban. (V. Krochmal More Nebuche ha-Zeman, XI, 5.)

come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_90.html

In short, Ben Sira was not read publically in the Temple as scripture.,

 

[CaptainPicard]

This passage is from the “apocrypha”, It’s from the book of Wisdom 2:12-20 (written around 100 BC). It’s a clear prophecy of Jesus and seems to me to be obviously inspired.

Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD. To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

 

[Vince1022]

“The three oldest complete copies of the Greek Old Testament [Septuagint] that we have include different additional books. Codex Vaticanus (fourth century) omits 1 and 2 Maccabees, which is canonical according to the Roman Catholic Church, but also includes 1 Esdras, which the RCC rejects. Similarly, Codex Siniaticus (fourth century) leaves out Baruch, which RCC say is canonical, but includes 4 Maccabees, which they reject. Codex Alexandrinus (fifth century) includes three noncanonical apocryphal books, 1 Esdras and 3 and 4 maccabees. That certain books were included in these early Bibles wheras other books were not certainly indicates that inclusion alone does not prove their status as cannoical.” (Evidence Answers, & Christian Faith by Jimmy Williams pages 120-121.)

Your point, or question? How does this relate to the thread? You are responding to whom? thanks for any help.

 

[guanophore]

I must admit I am curious as the traditions about Jesus the catholic church or catholics claims to have. But, none have been posted that I know of other than the claim that Jesus was in his 50s when he died.

If this was posted here on CAF, it was not because it is a “Catholic claim”. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that Jesus began His public ministry at the age of 30, and it lasted about three years, culminating in his crucifixion and death on the cross.

I have read that some Muslims believe that Jesus survived the crucifixion and travelled to India with his mother Mary, and the two of them died there. There are some that claim they venerate the tomb of the virgin.

One of the Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church is the canon of scrripture, which was defined by the Church in 382. At that time, the Alexandrian Septuagint used by Jesus and the Aposltes was bound together with 27 writings from the early church (called the New Testament). The collection of the books and the authority to proclaim the canon closed is part of the Sacred Tradition.

 

[guanophore]

…but are you responding as a Christian, or a Jew? As far as I know one can’t be both.

I am glad this is not true…Jesus was a Jew, and so were His 12 Apostles. Mary, his mother was a Jew, and the first Christian…

Some Jews who have accepted Christ call themselves "fulfilled Jews’ or “Messianic Jews” or “Hebrew Christians”.

 

[Big_Dummy]

This passage is from the “apocrypha”, It’s from the book of Wisdom 2:12-20 (written around 100 BC). It’s a clear prophecy of Jesus and seems to me to be obviously inspired.

ROFL, no it is not even a prophecy. Read on to Wisdom 2:21-22

21
These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them,
22
And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.

Also, it turns out that the phrase “God’s Son”, “the true Son of God” and “the Son of God” are all mistranslations. The correct possible translations are “A son of God” or “God’s Children” depending which language you look this up in.

Saying “make it so number one” does not fly in this case.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Your point, or question? How does this relate to the thread? You are responding to whom? thanks for any help.

I forgot whom I was responsding to. It is possible this was a response to another thread on this board or on another board — a tim talyor ho ho ho.

But, there are a few points I see,

One

Jewish canon includes both inspired and non-inspired books.

To my knowledge there are no Jewish copies of the LXX in existence.

Among the Christian copies of the LXX there are books missing that catholics consider canonal and there are books as part of those that catholics do not consider canonal.

A false assumption among us Christians is that all canonal books in Jewish canons are inspired according to Judaism.

 

[Big_Dummy]

If this was posted here on CAF, it was not because it is a “Catholic claim”. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that Jesus began His public ministry at the age of 30, and it lasted about three years, culminating in his crucifixion and death on the cross. …

The Hebrew Scriptures where not given to the church, they were given to the Jews.

Irenaeus based on tradition wrote that Jesus was crucified around age fifty,

The thirty Æons are not typified by the fact that Christ was baptized in His thirtieth year: He did not suffer in the twelfth month after His baptism, **but was more than fifty years old when He died. **

…

Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and **fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed **while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement.

(Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 22) newadvent.org/fathers/0103222.htm

 

[CaptainPicard]

ROFL, no it is not even a prophecy. Read on to Wisdom 2:21-22…

I don’t see how verses 21-22 change anything. Nor do I see how the translation changes anything. Please clarify. Instead of dealing with the text in any meaningful way, you “ROFL” as an attempt to make it seem ridiculous. Oh ha ha ha, that couldn’t possibly be a prophecy!

With lots of help from this website (matt1618.freeyellow.com/wisdom2.html), I’ll break the prophecy down, showing the many and unique points of correspondence between the passage and the life of Jesus.

Wisdom 2:12 "Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.

Corresponds to these and like happenings:

Matthew 23:23..27-28 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have **neglected the weightier matters of the law**, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others”...

and

John 7:19-20 Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?"

Next:

20: Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

corresponds to this and like verses:

3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, who was called Ca’iaphas, and took counsel together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him.

This:

He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.

Corresponds with this:

John 8:55 But you have not known him (the Father); I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word.

This:

He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;

corresponds with this

Matthew 9:4: But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?

and this:

7 And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find an accusation against him. But he knew their thoughts,

This:

the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.

corresponds with this:

Matthew 15:1-6 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” …

and this and other like passages:

And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, “Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?” 22 When Jesus perceived their questionings, he answered them, "Why do you question in your hearts? … 26 And amazement seized them all, and they glorified God and were filled with awe, saying, “We have seen strange things today.”

This:

We are considered by him 1) as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; 2) he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts 3) that God is his father.

corresponds to these three respectively

39 And the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of extortion and wickedness. 40 You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you.

and

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

and

Luke 10:22 All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

And finally, the last and most convincing evidence:

This:

17: Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18: for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19: Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20: Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

corresponds to this:

41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

and

35 And the people stood by, watching; but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” 36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him vinegar, 37 and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!”

 

[Big_Dummy]

verse 21-22 has everything to do with it. The words you quoting are the thoughts of the wicked, they are not insipred in anyway. The text itself is not a prophecy of any kind.

Read in context.

And, yes the fact that you all think this is a prophecy is falling down funny.

Wisdom 2 (Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha)

1 Wicked people are wrong when they say to themselves, “Our life is short and full of sorrow, and when its end comes, there is no escape. No one has ever been known to come back from the world of the dead. 2 We were born by chance, and after life is over, we will be as if we had never been born at all. Our breath is no more than a puff of smoke; our mind is nothing more than a spark thrown off by the beating of our heart. 3 When that spark dies, our body will crumble into ashes, and our breath will become part of the empty air. 4 In time, no one will remember anything we ever did, and even our names will be forgotten. Our lives will pass away like the traces of clouds and vanish like fog in the heat of the sun. 5 Our time on earth is like a passing shadow. There is no escape from the day of our death; it is fixed, and no one can postpone it.” 6 The wicked say, "Come on, then, let’s enjoy the good things of life, and live in this world the way we did when we were young and free of care! 7 Let’s drink the most expensive wines and use the finest perfumes. Let’s not miss a single flower in the springtime! 8 Before the roses wither, let’s pick them and wear them in our hair! 9 Let’s all join in and leave signs everywhere of our carefree revelry! Life owes us that much! 10 “We’ll oppress the poor, even if they are righteous. We’ll show no respect for widows or old people. 11 We’ll call ourselves right if we are strong enough to get what we want. No one ever got anywhere by being weak! 12 Righteous people are nothing but a nuisance, so let’s look for chances to get rid of them. They are against what we do; they accuse us of breaking the Law of Moses and violating the traditions of our ancestors. 13 They claim to know God, and they call themselves the Lord’s children. 14 We can’t stand the sight of people like that; what they are contradicts our whole way of thinking. 15 They are not like other people; they have strange ways. 16 They think that our moral standards are so corrupt that everything we do should be avoided. They boast of having God for their Father, and believe that when all is said and done, only the righteous will be happy. 17 But we’ll see if that’s true! Let’s see what will happen when it’s time for them to die! 18 If the righteous really are God’s children, God will save them from their enemies. 19 So let’s put them to the test. We’ll be cruel to them, and torment them; then we’ll find out how calm and reasonable they are! We’ll find out just how much they can stand! 20 We’ll condemn them to a shameful death. After all, they say that God will protect them.” 21 That is how evil people think, but they are wrong. They are blinded by their own wickedness. 22 They have never known God’s secrets, never hoped for the rewards of a holy and blameless life. 23 When God created us, he did not intend for us to die; he made us like himself. 24 It was the Devil’s jealousy that brought death into the world, and those who belong to the Devil are the ones who will die.

biblestudytools.com/gnta/wisdom/2.html

Jewsish people will know that the book of Ben Sira does not defile the hands and that scripture does defile the hands. But, reading the text in context refutes any notion of it being a prophecy.

 

[Vince1022]

Jewish canon includes both inspired and non-inspired books.

Interesting. Any authoritative Jewish source to help us understand that?

To my knowledge there are no Jewish copies of the LXX in existence.

Maybe. I don’t know. There are Christian copies, though. Given the fact that the LXX was originally a Jewish composition, are you suggesting that Jews and Christians had different copies of the Septuagint?

Among the Christian copies of the LXX there are books missing that catholics consider canonal and there are books as part of those that catholics do not consider canonal.

What books are missing from the Christian copies of the LXX that catholics consider canonical? What books in the LXX do catholics not consider canonical?

Specifically? Thanks for any clarification.
A false assumption among us Christians is that all canonal books in Jewish canons are inspired according to Judaism.

 

[Big_Dummy]

“The three oldest complete copies of the Greek Old Testament [Septuagint] that we have include different additional books. Codex Vaticanus (fourth century) omits 1 and 2 Maccabees, which is canonical according to the Roman Catholic Church, but also includes 1 Esdras, which the RCC rejects. Similarly, Codex Siniaticus (fourth century) leaves out Baruch, which RCC say is canonical, but includes 4 Maccabees, which they reject. Codex Alexandrinus (fifth century) includes three noncanonical apocryphal books, 1 Esdras and 3 and 4 maccabees. That certain books were included in these early Bibles wheras other books were not certainly indicates that inclusion alone does not prove their status as cannoical.” (Evidence Answers, & Christian Faith by Jimmy Williams pages 120-121.)

Off the top of my head, An example of a book that is canonical but uninspired is Megillat Ta’anit. It was a book that was authoritative and binding but was never claimed to be prophetically inspired. Similarly, the Mishna and Talmud eventually became part of the Jewish canon and are therefore treated with great respect. Yet the authors were certainly not prophets.

Look for a copy of Leiman’s book, The Canonization of Hebrew Scripture: The Talmudic and Midrashic Evidence for many “offical” sources related to books that are canonical, but are not inspired.

 

[Big_Dummy]

When you consider certin books were not even written at the time of LXX translation. It makes sense those books were not part of the Jewish LXX. And, if the LXX was “perfect” then why was there another Greek Translation of the OT around 120 AD I think it was.