BF vs DH?

[Kateri92]

Hi all,
So I am aware that in marriage there is such thing as the “marriage debt” and that neither spouse should withhold physical intimacy from each other as that is one part of the vocation to marriage and doing so could become sinful. However, when a couple is still in the dating stage but VERY serious and planning marriage, while not having sex, why does the church discourage kissing even when the intentions are pure and solely a way to express love for one another? It seems like an oxymoron.

I am asking because my BF and I are planning to be married this summer but the circumstances make it impossible for us to be married right now. He already has his proposal to me planned. When I chose not to kiss my BF it hurts him which in turn hurts me. I love him so much and I know that his love is pure and true also. But, everywhere I look online they make it seem like if a couple kisses before marriage they are going to hell. Its hurtful when other Catholics demonize our relationship. I feel stuck. Please help!

 

[1ke]

Talk to your pastor about your concerns, Kateri.

I’m more concerned that this is your first boyfriend and after one month of dating you are now stating you are getting married this summer. Slow it down, Kateri. Talk to your pastor about this relationship.

You just started a thread on kissing two weeks ago.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=991372

 

[ameliepoir]

The church doesn’t discourage gestures of affection (including kissing, holding hands, etc.) within dating relationships, so long as they aren’t sexually arousing. It’s hard to believe that everywhere you’ve looked online says that kissing is forbidden. Kiss your BF if you want, and be at peace. If you don’t believe me, talk to your confessor and follow his advice.

 

[Kateri92]

Talk to your pastor about your concerns, Kateri.

I’m more concerned that this is your first boyfriend and after one month of dating you are now stating you are getting married this summer. Slow it down, Kateri. Talk to your pastor about this relationship.

You just started a thread on kissing two weeks ago.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=991372

We have been dating for several months now. And, I don’t like being talked down to because this is my first bf. I’m not dumb. I discerned this relationship before I started it. I feel confident God brought us together. But this shouldn’t matter because It does not answer my original question.

 

[1ke]

We have been dating for several months now.

On Dec 14, in your other kissing post, you stated you had been courting for a month. You posted in September about wanting a boyfriend and having never been in a relationship, in October about meeting someone online from another country, and in December about courting one month. So, no more than 2 months. And don’t I recall from another of your posts that this person is a non-practicing Catholic?

And, I don’t like being talked down to because this is my first bf.

You are not being talked down to because this is your first relationship. First or hundredth, this is WAY too fast-- especially if this is also an online relationship and if he is non-practicing and/or pressing for a physical relationship-- you mention his “hurt” with no kissing. (Perhaps these were other people and not your current boyfriend?)

I’m not dumb.

I don’t think you are dumb. But I will say I think you are rushing things terribly and I don’t think that is prudent.

I discerned this relationship before I started it.

But that is still less than 3 months ago, and now you are getting married in only 6 months or 8 months from now? “The summer” is not far off. Many diocese require premarital prep that exceeds that timeline. Have you even talked to your pastor about this?

I feel confident God brought us together. But this shouldn’t matter because It does not answer my original question.

Numerous posters already answered your question in the other thread you started two weeks ago on kissing.

 

[kptrs]

This is going to sound harsh, and you’re not going to like me for saying it, but I think you need to hear it. With all due respect, Kateri, you get defensive quite easily. In other threads, you insist that you are mature and ready for a relationship. But one of the signs of true maturity is being able to listen to the advice of those who have been there and done that without coming back with the defensive attitude you exhibit in many of your posts when someone tells you something you don’t want to hear. This type of attitude is not going to serve you well in a relationship or marriage. I think you need to work on this before you take the step to get engaged or married.

 

[EasterJoy]

Hi all,
So I am aware that in marriage there is such thing as the “marriage debt” and that neither spouse should withhold physical intimacy from each other as that is one part of the vocation to marriage and doing so could become sinful. However, when a couple is still in the dating stage but VERY serious and planning marriage, while not having sex, why does the church discourage kissing even when the intentions are pure and solely a way to express love for one another? It seems like an oxymoron.

I am asking because my BF and I are planning to be married this summer but the circumstances make it impossible for us to be married right now. He already has his proposal to me planned. When I chose not to kiss my BF it hurts him which in turn hurts me. I love him so much and I know that his love is pure and true also. But, everywhere I look online they make it seem like if a couple kisses before marriage they are going to hell. Its hurtful when other Catholics demonize our relationship. I feel stuck. Please help!

If he “has his proposal planned,” he hasn’t proposed. Has he proposed and you are planning a wedding or has he not proposed and you are presuming that a wedding is possible?

Never mind. The Church does not forbid kissing before marriage. If you can’t discern when it is OK and when it is not because you are too worried about the judgment you assume is coming from other people with no authority over you, consider that perhaps you aren’t ready to be married. No one can survive parenthood if they are that wound up over other people’s opinions, because it is impossible to satisfy everybody.

…

A MAN and his son were once going with their donkey to market. As they were walking along by its side a countryman passed them and said: “You fools, what is a donkey for but to ride upon?”
So the man put the boy on the donkey and they went on their way. But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: “See that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides."
So the man ordered his boy to get off, and got on himself. But they hadn’t gone far when they passed two women, one of whom said to the other: “Shame on that lazy lout! He rides and lets his poor little son trudge along."
Well, the man didn’t know what to do, but at last he took his boy up before him on the donkey. By this time they had come to the town, and the passers-by began to jeer and point at them. The man stopped and asked what they were scoffing at. The men said: “Aren’t you ashamed of yourself for overloading that poor donkey of yours—you and your hulking son?”
The man and boy got off and tried to think what to do. They thought and they thought, till at last they cut down a pole, tied the donkey’s feet to it, and raised the pole and the donkey to their shoulders. They went along amid the laughter of all who met them till they came to market bridge, when the donkey, getting one of his feet loose, kicked out and caused the boy to drop his end of the pole. In the struggle the donkey fell over the bridge, and his fore-feet being tied together he was drowned.
“That will teach you,” said an old man who had followed them,
“Please all, and you will please none.” --Aesop

 

[Lou2U]

If he “has his proposal planned,” he hasn’t proposed. Has he proposed and you are planning a wedding or has he not proposed and you are presuming that a wedding is possible?

Never mind. The Church does not forbid kissing before marriage. If you can’t discern when it is OK and when it is not because you are too worried about the judgment you assume is coming from other people with no authority over you, consider that perhaps you aren’t ready to be married. No one can survive parenthood if they are that wound up over other people’s opinions, because it is impossible to satisfy everybody.

I agree.

OP, I also agree with 1ke. I think it may be better for you to take a step back and consider your relationship. If you believe your own intentions to be pure and your boyfriend is the same, then it shouldn’t matter what others say.

I don’t mean to offend with this, but I read your other thread on kissing, and about awkward conversations - does your boyfriend understand your reasons for not kissing? Does he agree with your reasons? Do you feel able to talk to him about this?

Lou

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Hi all,
So I am aware that in marriage there is such thing as the “marriage debt” and that neither spouse should withhold physical intimacy from each other as that is one part of the vocation to marriage and doing so could become sinful. However, when a couple is still in the dating stage but VERY serious and planning marriage, while not having sex, why does the church discourage kissing even when the intentions are pure and solely a way to express love for one another? It seems like an oxymoron.

I am asking because my BF and I are planning to be married this summer but the circumstances make it impossible for us to be married right now. He already has his proposal to me planned. When I chose not to kiss my BF it hurts him which in turn hurts me. I love him so much and I know that his love is pure and true also. But, everywhere I look online they make it seem like if a couple kisses before marriage they are going to hell. Its hurtful when other Catholics demonize our relationship. I feel stuck. Please help!

Where did you get the idea that kissing is discouraged before marriage by The Church? At the most it can only be the opinion of some people. There is no Church law about kissing, period. Believe me, I tried to find it. Every priest I ever talk to about the subject told me that it was okay to kiss my girlfriend. One said I should wait until at least 6 months though. That was just his opinion though. He did not say that it was a sin to kiss my girlfriend if we have been together less than six months. From all the info i looked up on the subject, the general consensus among clergy on the subject seems to be that kissing is okay as long is it is not prolonged and that kissing with tongues is only for married couples and would be a sin to unmarried people because that type of kissing only serves to get someone in the mood for intercourse. I believe I read a statement from one pope a long time ago that kissing for pleasure if unmarried is a sin and some people still quote this to say kissing before marriage is a sin. But this was not a infallible declaration. Just one popes opinion on the matter. What else that is normal today would probably be considered sinful back then? Well, women no longer veiling themselves in Church is one I can think of I think JP II said kissing is fine between a boyfriend and girlfriend too. But I do not have a exact quote. I THINK, I am not 100% sure and I could even be wrong. It was a long time ago that I believe I read that.

So, in short, a lot of people say it is better to wait until marriage because they think it is too easy to go from kissing to petting to having intercourse, so why risk the temptation? Just be prudent on the matter. Nothing wrong with a peck on the lips to say goodnight.

 

[Anglewannabe]

I am asking because my BF and I are planning to be married this summer but the circumstances make it impossible for us to be married right now.

umm… just curious but where do you live? I live in Canada and the church bulleting makes it clear you need to see your priest 1 year before you want to be married. Not sure the church will be willing to marry you by the summer

He already has his proposal to me planned.

Has he told you this? I find it kind of odd that a man would say that, unless he needs your ring size

 

[Horton]

Hi all,
I am asking because my BF and I are planning to be married this summer but the circumstances make it impossible for us to be married right now. He already has his proposal to me planned.

So are you engaged or not? What does “He already has his proposal to me planned” mean?

When I chose not to kiss my BF it hurts him which in turn hurts me. I love him so much and I know that his love is pure and true also. But, everywhere I look online they make it seem like if a couple kisses before marriage they are going to hell. Its hurtful when other Catholics demonize our relationship. I feel stuck. Please help!

Going out on a limb here. I read through your previous posts and am very confused. If I read the threads correctly (and I’m pretty sure I did) you barely know this guy and it seems in a previous thread just prior to this one you state you are dating long distance. Have you even met this guy face to face? Is the non practicing Catholic guy with bad grammar & spelling or the very devout Catholic friend who isn’t chaste?

And just for context - Do you mind telling us how old you are?

 

[St_Francis]

You’re dating someone from another country whom you met online? Have you met his family, hung out with his friends, that sort of thing?

The reason I ask is that I know of people who married people from other cultures who seemed normal before marriage, but after marriage expected things to be like in their own culture. It’s hard enough forging a new family when people have somewhat similar expectations but different modeling (woman’s mother always worked; husband’s didn’t, so they each have different ideas), but from different countries it can be even more difficult, and the lack of interaction with family and friends of the other can mean missing out on significant and necessary information.

I agree that you seem to be rushing this. How are you two going to accomplish your marriage prep? What are the laws about his being able to come here to live or your going to his country to live?

I too recommend patience and caution, and a good talk with your priest about the pre-Cana timing, etc.

 

[PolarGuy]

Agree with everything 1KE wrote.

 

[Kateri92]

I know it is easy to draw conclusions from my previous posts but I ask that my privacy on this subject be respected and that my question stand alone without reference to my previous posts. I don’t feel like defending myself from people who do not know me or my bf. In other situations your opinions would be absolutely correct. But I rather not divulge all the details of my relationship on the internet. Please respect my privacy and allow my post to stand alone. Thank you.

 

[Irishmom2]

I know it is easy to draw conclusions from my previous posts but I ask that my privacy on this subject be respected and that my question stand alone without reference to my previous posts. I don’t feel like defending myself from people who do not know me or my bf. In other situations your opinions would be absolutely correct. But I rather not divulge all the details of my relationship on the internet. Please respect my privacy and allow my post to stand alone. Thank you.

Uh…are you forgetting that this is an open forum and you have previously posted other threads? You are the one that has already divulged your details. So don’t expect people to suddenly disregard what you have already said if you want honest answers. Because if you don’t want the truth, why ask people to spend time answering?

 

[12345678]

I will go ahead and just talk about the kissing part. There are kisses, and then there are kisses. “Lighter” kisses (not the passionate/french kissing/making out ones) are fine when done out of affection and not to cause arousal in the other. Kisses done to cause arousal are not ok and should be reserved for marriage.

Comparing the marital debt to anything pre-marriage is apples and oranges. Once you are married you become one. Before you are married you need to stay away from things that can cause the sexual pleasure that is for marriage. You don’t have any type of “debt” towards each other. You didn’t specify what you meant by a kiss, as you know there is a whole range of kisses. Some are just fine pre-marriage, some are not. There are several Ask an Apologist Q’s and A’s on here that address this.

 

[PolarGuy]

OP, you say, “you don’t know me or my boyfriend!”

For the same reasons some others have pointed out, it is not out of bounds to point out that *you *don’t know your boyfriend, on the basis of a very short “relationship”; your comparative youth; no real dating experience; and you spending a long time thinking religious life was for you. Is that “talking down to you?” No, it’s called “these are the facts.”

I would charitably suggest that rather than insist we answer your question as if none of your other posts existed, you instead give a lot of thought to what a lot of the posters – who are invariably older and generally happily married (certainly includes me!) are saying, and take a step back in this relationship.

I would also note that this entire board is filled with people who bemoan getting married too young; say they “didn’t know their fiancée;” say “my husband hid things from me before we got married!”; have financial problems because their husband can’t hold a job or comes from a different culture, etc. There is absolutely nothing in your posts suggesting that you won’t become one of these folks, and a lot that suggests that you will. Just something else to think about…

 

[Xantippe]

OP, you say, “you don’t know me or my boyfriend!”

For the same reasons some others have pointed out, it is not out of bounds to point out that *you *don’t know your boyfriend, on the basis of a very short “relationship”; your comparative youth; no real dating experience; and you spending a long time thinking religious life was for you. Is that “talking down to you?” No, it’s called “these are the facts.”

I would charitably suggest that rather than insist we answer your question as if none of your other posts existed, you instead give a lot of thought to what a lot of the posters – who are invariably older and generally happily married (certainly includes me!) are saying, and take a step back in this relationship.

I would also note that this entire board is filled with people who bemoan getting married too young; say they “didn’t know their fiancée;” say “my husband hid things from me before we got married!”; have financial problems because their husband can’t hold a job or comes from a different culture, etc. There is absolutely nothing in your posts suggesting that you won’t become one of these folks, and a lot that suggests that you will. Just something else to think about…

Right.

Believe it or not, young Catholic women don’t spontaneously combust if they turn 24 years old without being married yet.

Just because you are 22 or 23 and are dating someone right now doesn’t mean they are the right person for you. This is not a game of musical chairs–you don’t have to grab the closest chair/guy when the music stops.

 

[Kateri92]

I will go ahead and just talk about the kissing part. There are kisses, and then there are kisses. “Lighter” kisses (not the passionate/french kissing/making out ones) are fine when done out of affection and not to cause arousal in the other. Kisses done to cause arousal are not ok and should be reserved for marriage.

Comparing the marital debt to anything pre-marriage is apples and oranges. Once you are married you become one. Before you are married you need to stay away from things that can cause the sexual pleasure that is for marriage. You don’t have any type of “debt” towards each other. You didn’t specify what you meant by a kiss, as you know there is a whole range of kisses. Some are just fine pre-marriage, some are not. There are several Ask an Apologist Q’s and A’s on here that address this.

Thanks for your reply. You are right. But, I guess, I’m just trying to figure out where I should draw the line. I don’t want to say that my bf can’t kiss me. It wouldn’t be a romantic relationship then. But, neither of us want to go against God. But we just don’t know where to draw the line. Like I always thought any kissing was okay to show your affection for the other person. But then I found out that it is a grey area where some kisses are okay and it shocked me. Kissing seems rather benign to me especially if the two people are in control of their passions. I mean holding hands or a hug could turn someone on just as much as any kind of kissing… It seems odd to me to say prolonged kissing carries the same sinfulness as premarital sex. Kissing is not sex… not even close. I am just confused and feel stuck in between what I feel in my gut/ reason and what I am reading online.

 

[ameliepoir]

Thanks for your reply. You are right. But, I guess, I’m just trying to figure out where I should draw the line. I don’t want to say that my bf can’t kiss me. It wouldn’t be a romantic relationship then. But, neither of us want to go against God. But we just don’t know where to draw the line. Like I always thought any kissing was okay to show your affection for the other person. But then I found out that it is a grey area where some kisses are okay and it shocked me. Kissing seems rather benign to me especially if the two people are in control of their passions. I mean holding hands or a hug could turn someone on just as much as any kind of kissing… It seems odd to me to say prolonged kissing carries the same sinfulness as premarital sex. Kissing is not sex… not even close. I am just confused and feel stuck in between what I feel in my gut/ reason and what I am reading online.

If you are still confused, talk to your priest.