Bi-Ritual home--looking for ideas on the nuts and bolts

[SerbCath]

Hello–

This is my first post. I will try to make a VERY long story short and then ask my question.

I was chrismated Serbian Orthodox as an infant. My father insisted on this. However, for reasons I will never fully undestand (he died before I began the current journey so I never asked) he did not expose me much to rich ethno/religous culture that is Orthodoxy. He escaped from communism in the late 50s so I guess he has his reasons. I went to a few feast days, weddings, but I was very little. Essentially, he let my mom dictate that we would be protestants. I even attended a Baptist seminary, so I am qualified to be clergy as a protestant.

Fast forward to about a year ago. My father died, and I am married to a Latin Rite Catholic. She asks me if I would be willing to look into an anullment of my first marriage. We go to the local RC priest and he discovers my chrismation. Inquiries are made, and the short version of that is the local canon lawyers determine no anullment is necessary, because of lack of form in the first marriage.

I start looking into (Serbian) orthodoxy. I begin RCIA. I learn about the Eastern Church. I get in contact with the closest Byzantine priest. More learning. We have our convalidation ceremony. To shorten even further, I am going to make my confession into the Byzantine church that is the closest analog to Serbian Orthodox in the next two weeks.

It has been over a year of discussions, but these four goals have been the primary reasons for making this conversion, instead of “staying” Orthodox:

1. I want to revive/live out the ethno/religious traditions of my fathers father (my patriarchal lineage).
2. I want my children to be aware of this richness
3. I want to be able to receive communion in the same location as my wife
4. I want my children to be able to chose their mothers rite or mine when they are old enough with none of the complications I am having. Chrismation will accomplish this.

So, my question. Are there any bi-ritual families on here? What does it look like in an American home where you are most likely worshipping at a RC parish? Any suggestions–please be specific. Remeber–I am reinventing this from scratch. I have no idea what an Orthodox/Eastern home looks like, and now I am trying to lead my family into both (we are very big on Patriarchy in my home. My wife follows, I lead.) I want to honor both rites, and not mess up. Thank you.

 

[MichaelinMD]

Hello–

This is my first post. I will try to make a VERY long story short and then ask my question.

I was chrismated Serbian Orthodox as an infant. My father insisted on this. However, for reasons I will never fully undestand (he died before I began the current journey so I never asked) he did not expose me much to rich ethno/religous culture that is Orthodoxy. He escaped from communism in the late 50s so I guess he has his reasons. I went to a few feast days, weddings, but I was very little. Essentially, he let my mom dictate that we would be protestants. I even attended a Baptist seminary, so I am qualified to be clergy as a protestant.

Fast forward to about a year ago. My father died, and I am married to a Latin Rite Catholic. She asks me if I would be willing to look into an anullment of my first marriage. We go to the local RC priest and he discovers my chrismation. Inquiries are made, and the short version of that is the local canon lawyers determine no anullment is necessary, because of lack of form in the first marriage.

I start looking into (Serbian) orthodoxy. I begin RCIA. I learn about the Eastern Church. I get in contact with the closest Byzantine priest. More learning. We have our convalidation ceremony. To shorten even further, I am going to make my confession into the Byzantine church that is the closest analog to Serbian Orthodox in the next two weeks.

It has been over a year of discussions, but these four goals have been the primary reasons for making this conversion, instead of “staying” Orthodox:

1. I want to revive/live out the ethno/religious traditions of my fathers father (my patriarchal lineage).
2. I want my children to be aware of this richness
3. I want to be able to receive communion in the same location as my wife
4. I want my children to be able to chose their mothers rite or mine when they are old enough with none of the complications I am having. Chrismation will accomplish this.

So, my question. Are there any bi-ritual families on here? What does it look like in an American home where you are most likely worshipping at a RC parish? Any suggestions–please be specific. Remeber–I am reinventing this from scratch. I have no idea what an Orthodox/Eastern home looks like, and now I am trying to lead my family into both (we are very big on Patriarchy in my home. My wife follows, I lead.) I want to honor both rites, and not mess up. Thank you.

Dear SerbCath,

You seem to be equating, at least a little bit anyway, Serbian Orthodoxy with Eastern Rite Catholicism. While they may be in many ways very similar, they are not the same thing. This is in addition to cultural practices which may vary widely from Serbia to Western Ukraine to NE Slovakia to SE Poland, etc, etc. So, what might be true in one Orthodox or Eastern Catholic home doesn’t necessarily mean that that will apply in another or in another.

If you want to receive Holy Communion in the same location as your wife, you both need to be either Catholic (of any persuasion) OR Orthodox. Catholics of any sui iuris church may receive the Sacraments in any other Catholic church. But, unfortunately, not in any Orthodox church.

You may suggest to your wife, if she follows your lead, that she come with you to the Eastern Catholic church. Assure her, however, that it is as fully “Catholic” as any RC church she would attend. Or, you can alternate going to an EC church with going to an RC church every other week or whatever.

My wife was baptized/chrismated in a Ukrainian Catholic Church, her father was RC, mother was EC, went to RC schools and churches for 18 years, spent summers with her EC relatives in Pa. going to church weekly with them. She’s about as “bi-ritual” as they come . She is equally at home in an RC church as in an EC church.

 

[SerbCath]

Sorry, my very long post contained this quote, which you might have missed:

“I am going to make my confession into the Byzantine church that is the closest analog to Serbian Orthodox in the next two weeks.”

I am converting to Byzantine Catholic to solve the problem you are referring to. In this case, my name will be added to the rolls of the Greek Catholic Church of the Former Yugoslavia. We are aware this is fully Catholic.

My fault. I should have made it shorter.

The meat of my question is: What does a home with one Byzantine Catholic and one Roman Catholic parent look like, when it has been agreed that both will be honored and celebrated?

 

[MichaelinMD]

Sorry, my very long post contained this quote, which you might have missed:

“I am going to make my confession into the Byzantine church that is the closest analog to Serbian Orthodox in the next two weeks.”

I am converting to Byzantine Catholic to solve the problem you are referring to. In this case, my name will be added to the rolls of the Greek Catholic Church of the Former Yugoslavia. We are aware this is fully Catholic.

My fault. I should have made it shorter.

The meat of my question is: What does a home with one Byzantine Catholic and one Roman Catholic parent look like, when it has been agreed that both will be honored and celebrated?

It can look like whatever you want it to look like. I know, I seem to be dodging the question a little bit. That’s on purpose. You will really have to find your own way of integrating the two traditions, to the extent that that can be done. How 'bout, for starters, an icon corner with a rosary on it, and praying a rosary there along or in alternation with some “Eastern” prayers?

You can alternate going one week to an RC parish and the next to your EC parish. Or go for a month to one and the next month to the other. You can bring Serbian traditions into your home and your wife can bring those of her own ethnic origin(s).

At this point, though, I don’t know what other specifics to offer. Sorry ! I will say this, though–on an entirely secular note, if you speak (and read and write) Serbian, you will do your children a huge disservice if you do not ensure that they learn the language too !

 

[SerbCath]

At this point, though, I don’t know what other specifics to offer. Sorry ! I will say this, though–on an entirely secular note, if you speak (and read and write) Serbian, you will do your children a huge disservice if you do not ensure that they learn the language too !

We are learning (and trying to teach them) Serbian now. This will help us to understand the Church Slavonic a little better. My wife is Irish, so the mix is quite rich.

I think the best thing the Byzantine priest who is now managing my cathecesis said to me was this: “Byzantine IS Orthodoxy. Plus the Pope.” This is of course, a huge over simplification, but at it’s core, my studying has essentially confirmed this. In fact, I have now been to several divine liturgies (Byzantine and Orthodox) and the PRIMARY difference is during the litany at the begining when they name all the people they are praying for. The Byzantine service includes Francis, and the Orthodox only has the bishop of Constantinople, or in some cases the Bishop of the [fill in the ethnicity].

For plain old folks like me (and ESPECIALLY the ones I try to explain it to) the difference between Orthodoxy and Byzantine is so subtle that it makes the conversations I have with people about it excruciating.

I will give some examples of what we are trying to do. The East (Orthodoxy and Byzantine) celebrate the Paschal Mystery in very specific ways. (Red Easter eggs blessed by the priest, etc). This year we plan on doing it that way–but the closest Byzantine church is 2 1/2 hours away. We are members at the local RC parish. We have discussed with our local priest bringin the eggs in to be blessed, and he finds this very cool.

We sign, bow and pray to our Eastern (Icons) altar in the Eastern rite and we use the orthodox prayer book since it is one in the same with Byzantine.

We also have a Latin altar, just to the left of it. My wife prays sometimes with the kids toward that altar, on their knees.

My wife will be homeschooling them (they are VERY young right now) and she is going to basically Cathecize them in both rites.

I am just wondering if anyone has any experience with this in real time.

 

[MichaelinMD]

We are learning (and trying to teach them) Serbian now. This will help us to understand the Church Slavonic a little better. My wife is Irish, so the mix is quite rich.

I will give some examples of what we are trying to do. The East (Orthodoxy and Byzantine) celebrate the Paschal Mystery in very specific ways. (Red Easter eggs blessed by the priest, etc). This year we plan on doing it that way–but the closest Byzantine church is 2 1/2 hours away. We are members at the local RC parish. We have discussed with our local priest bringin the eggs in to be blessed, and he finds this very cool.

We sign, bow and pray to our Eastern (Icons) altar in the Eastern rite and we use the orthodox prayer book since it is one in the same with Byzantine.

We also have a Latin altar, just to the left of it. My wife prays sometimes with the kids toward that altar, on their knees.

My wife will be homeschooling them (they are VERY young right now) and she is going to basically Cathecize them in both rites.

I am just wondering if anyone has any experience with this in real time.

Sounds to me like you’re on the right track!! Not sure I could offer any more suggestions to you, but maybe some other folks here can.

Wow–Irish + Serb!! I’d hate to be in the way of any arguments there !!!

By the way, congratulations on becoming Byzantine Catholic!!! May God bless you and your family with many, many spiritual gifts!

By the way, you can “participate” weekly in a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy, live, here: holyghost-byzantinecatholic.org/ My wife and I just discovered this. You won’t be able to receive Holy Communion, but you will be able to fulfill your obligation. You could also go to the Saturday evening Mass at your RC parish, and participate in and receive Communion, thereby participating in both worlds!

In Christ,
MinM

 

[Aramis]

The advice from the Vatican II council is for the nuclear family to practice in the Eastern Church.

Aside from a couple holy days (Pure Monday vs Ash Wednesday, Theophany vs Motherhood of Mary, Holy Saturday, apostle’s fast and the dormition fast), the general requirements for participation are the same. The obligations for Theophany and Motherhood of Mary can be met in either church of the Catholic communion. The stricter fast for you for the 4 fasts (vs her two) will be a small issue, but she can easily be dispensed to follow your fasting rules for Advent and Lent - being married to someone with different fasting rules is the axiomatic exemplar of when the dispensation should be given!

So, generally, it means all 4 byzantine fasts, in their byzantine lengths, plus the holy saturday liturgy… and liturgies as you both agree to.

Also, you need to decide if the children will be raised alternating or in the byzantine tradition. (Raising them solely in the Roman violates the instructions of V II, unless there is no access to a byzantine parish.)

 

[SerbCath]

The advice from the Vatican II council is for the nuclear family to practice in the Eastern Church.

Aside from a couple holy days (Pure Monday vs Ash Wednesday, Theophany vs Motherhood of Mary, Holy Saturday, apostle’s fast and the dormition fast), the general requirements for participation are the same. The obligations for Theophany and Motherhood of Mary can be met in either church of the Catholic communion. The stricter fast for you for the 4 fasts (vs her two) will be a small issue, but she can easily be dispensed to follow your fasting rules for Advent and Lent - being married to someone with different fasting rules is the axiomatic exemplar of when the dispensation should be given!

So, generally, it means all 4 byzantine fasts, in their byzantine lengths, plus the holy saturday liturgy… and liturgies as you both agree to.

Also, you need to decide if the children will be raised alternating or in the byzantine tradition. (Raising them solely in the Roman violates the instructions of V II, unless there is no access to a byzantine parish.)

Yes, this is what I am reading. The Byzantine priest has a large area he covers and does have divine liturgy on the third Thursday of every month a little closer than his home church. We are planning on making that a regular attendance. We are going to have the children chrismated by him ASAP.

I think if I pushed the issue, my wife would be fine with all of this, but she might resent it inside. After all, she has been Catholic all her life, and I come along and become a Byzantine and say “we are going to do it this way” seems a little intolerant of me. She loves the divine liturgy and finds it much more spiritually fulfilling then the Latin Mass. But still, a whole family and lifetime of Irish Catholics is standing right behind her–and I actually like them!

 

[Rawb]

While I’m saddened to hear you’ve left the Orthodox Church, I attend a Serbian Orthodox parish, so I can tell you some specifically Serbian traditions.

The most important is your Slava. It’s very sad your father didn’t pass this tradition on to you (not to criticize him at all). See if you can find out who they are. The Slava is the patron saint of a family, and in Serbia they go back to the very first ancestor who was baptized into Christianity. Serbs can trace their lineage back to villages via their Slava. They pass from father to son, and your daughters will take the Slava of the man they marry. There’s a specific ritualistic celebration of the Slava, so look into that. You’ll have slavski kolach, a type of bread, some wine and koliva (a sweet boiled wheat dish, I don’t know the Serbian name for it, but generally it’s just called koliva). Serbs have survived occupation, conquests, troubles, and risk their lives protecting their Family’s Icon of their Slava.

Then at Christmas there’s the blessing of the badnjak, or Yule Log. That’s a major Serbian celebration on January 7th, which is when we celebrate Christmas. Serbs also don’t respond to “Christ is Born!” with “Glorify Him” like the rest of The Church but “Indeed He is Born!”

The typical Orthodox house blessings at Theophany, which I suppose you could mix and do it at the Orthodox time but with a Roman priest?

Here’s a site for Western Rite Orthodoxy, which could be helpful, having prayers for traditionally Orthodox times (like Evening and Morning prayer) but from the ancient, pre-schism Roman tradition. You could switch off between Roman and Eastern prayers.

 

[SerbCath]

Rawb-

God bless you for this response! It is exactly the kind of stuff I am looking for. The Slava as you describe it is saint George I think. Is that possible? The stories my grandmother and my dad used to tell we’re exactly as you described and they were about him.

Please pm me if you like.

 

[SerbCath]

I hate that my phone placed an apostrophe in the word “were.”

 

[Rawb]

St George is a very common Slava, so that would make sense. The Icon of the Slava is second in importance in your icon corner to those of the Theotokos and Christ. Ours goes between those two icons, and is the highest Icon except for them and the cross (which is the highest). Here’s a page of some ideas for decorating slavski kolach (but these are very elaborate).

There are a million ways to celebrate your Slava, everyone’s family tradition is a little different it seems. Usually you bring a loaf of slavski kolach, along with a very large candle and some wine, to your priest. He’ll bless it, rip the bread in half, pour wine into the cracks, all while saying some prayers. You’ll hold it with him and kiss the bread saying “He is and shall be” when he says “Christ is in our midst” and then you sing a song while spinning the bread. You go back home (or he can come to you really, I’ve heard of both) and the kolach is eaten by guests you invite over along with some koliva in honor of your dead ancestors.

I also have this, the single largest record I’ve seen of ideas and traditions for the Orthodox family, and articles on parenting from an Orthodox perspective.

These videos, here and here, are Serbian songs for Pascha (not for Liturgy) written by an old Serbian Monk who’s name, God forgive me, I cannot remember right now.

If you’d like more info about specific Serbian traditions, or ideas for melding (as much as I can, we do some Western things because Orthodoxy encompasses both Eastern and Western traditions so we’re sort of blended as well) you can PM me.

 

[Peter_J]

While I’m saddened to hear you’ve left the Orthodox Church,…

Hi Rawb. Oddly enough, your remark illustrates how similar we are: I would be saddened if I heard someone say that he/she was leaving the *Catholic *Church.

 

[Vico]

Hello–

This is my first post. I will try to make a VERY long story short and then ask my question.

I was chrismated Serbian Orthodox as an infant. My father insisted on this. However, for reasons I will never fully undestand (he died before I began the current journey so I never asked) he did not expose me much to rich ethno/religous culture that is Orthodoxy. He escaped from communism in the late 50s so I guess he has his reasons. I went to a few feast days, weddings, but I was very little. Essentially, he let my mom dictate that we would be protestants. I even attended a Baptist seminary, so I am qualified to be clergy as a protestant.

Fast forward to about a year ago. My father died, and I am married to a Latin Rite Catholic. She asks me if I would be willing to look into an anullment of my first marriage. We go to the local RC priest and he discovers my chrismation. Inquiries are made, and the short version of that is the local canon lawyers determine no anullment is necessary, because of lack of form in the first marriage.

I start looking into (Serbian) orthodoxy. I begin RCIA. I learn about the Eastern Church. I get in contact with the closest Byzantine priest. More learning. We have our convalidation ceremony. To shorten even further, I am going to make my confession into the Byzantine church that is the closest analog to Serbian Orthodox in the next two weeks.

It has been over a year of discussions, but these four goals have been the primary reasons for making this conversion, instead of “staying” Orthodox:

1. I want to revive/live out the ethno/religious traditions of my fathers father (my patriarchal lineage).
2. I want my children to be aware of this richness
3. I want to be able to receive communion in the same location as my wife
4. I want my children to be able to chose their mothers rite or mine when they are old enough with none of the complications I am having. Chrismation will accomplish this.

So, my question. Are there any bi-ritual families on here? What does it look like in an American home where you are most likely worshipping at a RC parish? Any suggestions–please be specific. Remeber–I am reinventing this from scratch. I have no idea what an Orthodox/Eastern home looks like, and now I am trying to lead my family into both (we are very big on Patriarchy in my home. My wife follows, I lead.) I want to honor both rites, and not mess up. Thank you.

If you did come into full communion with the Catholic Church you would be ascribed to the closet Catholic sui iurus church to the one of your father (since neither of your parents were Catholic), rather than to the one that receives you, and that would be The Byzantine Catholic Church (Križevci) comprising Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia (Vojvodina) and Montenegro. This sui iuris church formed in 1611 Holy Roman Empire, in the Marcha Union. And the Macedonian Byzantine Catholic Church originated with creation of Union of Serbs-Croats-Slovenes 1918, but was dissolved in 1924, yet revived again in 2001. The trend has been to split rather than consolidate so several sui iuris churches develop from one sometimes. For example from the Union of Uzhorod, Hungary, 1646, effective 1655:

• Ruthenian
• Slovak
• Hungarian

If you become Catholic then the eastern Catholic canon laws apply for you, and for your wife the Latin Catholic canon laws. Any Catholic may receive the Eucharist in any Catholic church sui iuris. For the children under age fourteen that are baptized belong to one of your two sui iuris Catholic churches that you both agree to, else to the fathers. The children do not have free choice of what sui iuris Church they belong to. Only adult baptisms have that choice. Any transfer for them requires the approval of both bishops, which must be requested in writing, and is normally done only once if ever (and is not always approved). However if you come into full communion, you wife would have the right to transfer to your sui iuris, per the canon law. Families with members of more than one sui iuris church can, in full keeping with the canon laws, follow the penitential practices (fast abstinence) and holy days of either. There is a difference in sacramental discipline though, so the Latin Church children would not receive* infant *Chrismation and Eucharist, but would wait at least until the age of reason.

cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=123&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=HQ&pageno=1

 

[UbiCaritas15]

It can look like whatever you want it to look like. I know, I seem to be dodging the question a little bit. That’s on purpose. You will really have to find your own way of integrating the two traditions, to the extent that that can be done. How 'bout, for starters, an icon corner with a rosary on it, and praying a rosary there along or in alternation with some “Eastern” prayers?

You can alternate going one week to an RC parish and the next to your EC parish. Or go for a month to one and the next month to the other. You can bring Serbian traditions into your home and your wife can bring those of her own ethnic origin(s).

At this point, though, I don’t know what other specifics to offer. Sorry ! I will say this, though–on an entirely secular note, if you speak (and read and write) Serbian, you will do your children a huge disservice if you do not ensure that they learn the language too !

My family is all RC, but we go to Church at a Byzantine church mostly on Sundays and holy days. Daily mass we go to an RC church. Some of us are parishioners at the RC parish and attend more there and others the Byzantine church. Once a month my sister and I go to a TLM. We are all adults so we drive separately, that will be different for you. Our homes have many icons, western religious art and statues, etc…

My faith has been enormously widened and strengthened by understanding these two ways of seeing the same faith. I love the Catholicity of the Church.

 

[MichaelinMD]

You probably already know much of this, but maybe your family would benefit:
sspp.ca/Byzantine%20Catholic%20%20Tradition-%20Compact%20PDF.pdf

Or, perhaps this: newbyzantines.net/byzcathculture/

Hope this helps!

In Christ,
MinM

 

[marywarfield]

I was raised in both EC and RC prior to it becoming
“cool” to do so lol. And married an RC.
Something’s are just natural to the persons upbringing
and will occur regardless.
I make the sign of the Cross right to left with three fingers in a point
and always
remember the wounds in the side as well. I can’t really
tell you exactly which rite that came from as my mother
just simply taught it to me and that’s what she always did
In our RC Church. My husband used to make the sign of the
Cross left to right with five extended fingers until we
got a priest in our RC from the Syro Malabar Rite.
Now my husband makes the sign three different ways
depending on what he’s thinking about. Haha! It’s
all good we have all our bases covered here. But I tell
people who gawk not to follow our example lol.

We have one home altar. The right side has icons
of Mary the left side has a western painting of Joseph
and in another area slightly removed we have a statue
of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. Our primary altar Crucifix
hangs from the ceiling and is actually of the Holy Trinity
with an image of the Crucifixion in the center.

We attend an RC parish but occasionally retreat
privately to either a Byzantine Carmelite house or
a Melkite. Both are at least three hundred miles
from where we live so tough to go frequently.

We usually observe the stricter fasts. This has never
been an issue- the RC is most certainly not
anti fast.

We also participate quite frequently in the Exhibition
of the Zholy Sacrament and First Fridays- that is more
of an RC thing than EC actually.

Our biggest issue has been the Theotokos.
While yes there are any number of RC devotions
to Mary her role is… Or veneration…is a
slightly different thing between the two.

I remember my kids being shocked in an RC
school when they were the only ones to have heard
the story of the Dormition the witnessing by the Apostles
the early life and consecration of the Holy
Mother. We now read and remember these days
with more attention at home because you know?
It’s sad to me that all of that is missing in the RC.

We do use the Little Office which helps me out
and the Rosary helps my husband.
But just the slightly different views and celebrations
of the Holy Mother can be…problematic.

Good luck- bi ritual to my mind is the fullness
of truth.

 

[Elizium23]

By the way, you can “participate” weekly in a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy, live, here: holyghost-byzantinecatholic.org/ My wife and I just discovered this. You won’t be able to receive Holy Communion, but you will be able to fulfill your obligation. You could also go to the Saturday evening Mass at your RC parish, and participate in and receive Communion, thereby participating in both worlds!

In Christ,
MinM

Watching a video on the Internet does not fulfill any canonical obligation in any Catholic Church.

 

[MichaelinMD]

Watching a video on the Internet does not fulfill any canonical obligation in any Catholic Church.

My understanding, since hearing it discussed a number of years ago on EWTN, was that watching a live broadcast of the Mass does, in fact, fulfill one’s obligation. Am I wrong about that? While the link I provided does access recordings of the Divine Liturgy, it is also broadcast live on Sunday mornings.

 

[Vico]

My understanding, since hearing it discussed a number of years ago on EWTN, was that watching a live broadcast of the Mass does, in fact, fulfill one’s obligation. Am I wrong about that? While the link I provided does access recordings of the Divine Liturgy, it is also broadcast live on Sunday mornings.

ZENIT (1-8-2008) Father Edward McNamara
“Most Catholics understand that following a televised Mass cannot, strictly speaking, fulfill the festive obligation. But it is a source of spiritual comfort and growth to those legitimately impeded, and thus dispensed, from attending Mass due to age, infirmity, distance or some other just cause.”
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur200.htm