Bible Alone and JW’s

  • Thread starter Thread starter adf417
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That’s why it’s important to ask “which” bible fell into the desert man’s lap.

Was it the one with extra words such as yours and “All [other] things were created through Him”? Or would it be one that stays true to the Greek?
Have you seen the list of denominations which deny the Trinity yet keep the same translation as you do in their Bible?

That’s because they have taken their right to read the Bible and come to their own conclusions–something that is espoused by the Protestant Reformation, yes?

See what fruit this paradigm has wrought?
 
And yet there are a multitude of denominations which read this and come to a personal and “private judgment” that this is not a Trinitiarian God that is being referenced in this verse.
Not to mention a very large portion of the early church did the same which, my understanding, was the cause of the council of Nicaea.

Or was the cause just another reason to party? 😃
 
Not to mention a very large portion of the early church did the same which, my understanding, was the cause of the council of Nicaea.

Or was the cause just another reason to party? 😃
'zactly. 👍
 
But that’s not an argument, it’s assertion. The JWs would say that Rome got it wrong, and Catholicism is unrecognizable from the first century church (if nothing else, I agree with them on that), which JWs are restoring.
On what do you base your assertion that “Catholicism is unrecognizable from the first century church”? What is your source for this information? Please share.
 
They believe that only their religion represents true Christianity which is guided by God. The Society is to be trusted as “God’s organization” - you make the same claim for the infallible magisterium. So far you are equal.
Anyone can make a claim, that is true. But there is only one Church that can back up that claim; one Church that can trace itself historically clear back to Peter and therefore to Christ himself, and only one Church that has kept the same doctrines since the first century and can prove it. You should do a little reading from the early Christians. They were Catholic. 🙂
 
A comment on Sola Scriptura.
The first reformers felt that the Church in their time had come become corrupt to such a point that the leadership and certain practices of the Church could no longer be trusted. To reform the Church they looked to the Bible in order to discover where and how the Church had lost it’s way, there reforms were rejected by the Church and so the very first Christian restoration movement begun with the Bible as their guide.
The very first reformers however did not abandon all previous Christian history and tradition and even though they used the Bible as their rule of faith the bible was not viewed and read in a vacuum, it was in fact interpreted through the lens of the Christian tradition that rested in the Church Fathers.
That being said though the lid to this particular Pandora’s box was well and truly opened, for what was to stop others from reforming the reformers and so on add in fin item, and indeed this is what happened almost immediately. So right from the start the reform movement appears to have two streams one striving for Orthodoxy and the other splintering into reactionary movements, justifying peculiar practices or indeed doctrines that ancient Christianity knew nothing about by their own interpretation of scripture.
One other unforeseen problem came in the very reason for reform and the proposed solution and that was the perceived corruption of the Christian authority and the restoration of an authentic Christianity. The first reformers saw the Church in their day as corrupt however this raises the inevitable question of when did the Church become corrupt, we all know that many groups have seen fit to trace that corruption back to Constantine and Nicea however as time went on many groups with more radical interpretations of scripture that did not stand up to the scrutiny of the pre-nicean fathers traced that corruption back to the first generation after the Apostles and indeed to the time of the Apostels themselves. These groups then became free from any of the restraining effects of Christian tradition and felt justified to ignore 2000 years of Christian scholarship and place their own deductions and conclusions from scripture above the teachings of some of the greatest minds the world has ever produced. Like wise the attempt to restore the 1st Century Church using the Bible as a guideline is a fools errand one would have more chance catching the wind, it is just not possible, just as it is not possible to reconstruct an authentic old testament sacrifice using the Leviticus.
As a result of all this, to me, Protestantism has two sides to the one coin, both using Sola Scriptura to reach different ends. One strives for Orthodoxy, and indeed the more Orthodox they become the more Catholic they become while the other gleans new doctrines from scripture that for 2000 years Christianity has known nothing of, and then teach them as truths in a church of their own image and design.
 
Also, could you please learn how to post without removing the original poster’s name? Each person’s responses ought to be easily attributable to its source. Authorship of said posts is of great import.

Thanks.
I know. I’m sorry. Too often - on both sides - it’s too much like naming and shaming. I’m just not comfortable with that. So I err on the side of caution. And if I’m disagreeing with a point someone makes I don’t want it to be taken personally. In discussions so fraught with tension, sometimes it’s better to address the argument not the person. The sweeping unsupported claim: “the difference is the Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself, he also gave it the Magisterium”, for example, could and would be made by any Catholic here.
 
Anyone can make a claim, that is true. But there is only one Church that can back up that claim; one Church that can trace itself historically clear back to Peter and therefore to Christ himself, and only one Church that has kept the same doctrines since the first century and can prove it. You should do a little reading from the early Christians. They were Catholic. 🙂
Kept the same doctrines… like penance? In the early church penance could only be done once in a lifetime. Or like veneration of icons? At the 2nd Council of Nicea in the 8th century, they only produced one example from the first 3 centuries in support of the practice. And that example was in a pagan context, not Christian. Do you suppose Paul prayed the rosary, or celebrated holy days of obligation under penalty of mortal sin and eternal damnation? Do you suppose the early church fathers’ rule of faith was Rome’s teaching, or did they think Scripture was formally sufficient?

These are quotes from John Chrysostom (my emphasis added) which you may verify at your leisure:

But what,” say they, “if we do not understand the things we read?” Even if you do not understand the contents, your sanctification in a high degree results from it. However, it is impossible that all these things should alike be misunderstood; for it was for this reason that the grace of the Holy Spirit ordained that tax-gatherers, and fishermen, and tent-makers, and shepherds, and goatherds, and uninstructed and illiterate men, should compose these books, that no untaught man should be able to make this pretext; in order that the things delivered should be easily comprehended by all—in order that the handicraftsman, the domestic, the widow, yea, the most unlearned of all men, should profit and be benefited by the reading. For it is not for vain-glory, as men of the world, but for the salvation of the hearers, that they composed these writings, who, from the beginning, were endued with the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and

For those without—philosophers, rhetoricians, and annalists, not striving for the common good, but having in view their own renown—if they said anything useful, even this they involved in their usual obscurity, as in a cloud. But the apostles and prophets always did the very opposite; they, as the common instructors of the world, made all that they delivered plain to all men, in order that every one, even unaided, might be able to learn by the mere reading.

and

But, you say, Philip is not present with us now. Still, the Spirit that moved Philip is present with us. Let us not, beloved, neglect our salvation! “All these things are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come,” (1 Cor. x. 11). The reading of the Scriptures is a great safeguard against sin; ignorance of the Scriptures is a great precipice and a deep gulf; to know nothing of the Scriptures, is a great betrayal of our salvation. This ignorance is the cause of heresies.

This is not a man saying “believe Rome” (which wasn’t a viable source of guidance in the 5th century as it didn’t have the centralised authority it has now. Rome simply couldn’t address the whole church, which you’ll find is a criterion for ex cathedra infallible guidance) or even, “believe whatever I say”. The rule of faith was Scripture alone. That changed.

Telling me to “do a little reading” is presumptuous and ad hominem.
 
The sweeping unsupported claim: “the difference is the Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself, he also gave it the Magisterium”, for example, could and would be made by any Catholic here.
The Catholic Church can trace Herself back to Christ and the Apostles, through 21 oecumenical councils, through the formation of the canon of scripture and through the lived Tradition of the Church which existed long before any of the NT was even written down, let alone canonised. It is very well supported from scriptural and historical sources, and the Fathers etc. However if you want to discuss this then I think it would require a new thread in the Apologetics forum.
 
If you cannot trust that the CC did not err in this, then you cannot know a single thing about Christ and His Revelation.
This sounds like Cartesian scepticism. Well, let us then discover what we can know. If Rome’s additions to the gospel are false… does that change the facts of Jesus’ death and resurrection? Not at all. I can find a reasonable starting point for personal trust in Christ, which is what saves. I can say why I am Christian.
 
if you want to discuss this then I think it would require a new thread in the Apologetics forum.
Quite. I was comparing JWs to Roman Catholicism, and it quickly becomes another thread to quiz the Protestant. 😛 I’m perfectly able to reply, but lets stick to the topic.
 
This sounds like Cartesian scepticism. Well, let us then discover what we can know. If Rome’s additions to the gospel are false… does that change the facts of Jesus’ death and resurrection? Not at all. I can find a reasonable starting point for personal trust in Christ, which is what saves. I can say why I am Christian.
But if the Church has erred how do you know of Jesus’ Death and Resurrection in the first place? How can you trust the veracity of the Gospels without the Church? How do you know the New Testament is anything other than a good literary fiction, up there with the odyssey or the works of shakespeare?

The Gospels didn’t fall from heaven as a finished product, they were written by human authors under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and those human authors were part of the Church. If the Church erred at some point, how do you know it wasn’t before the gospels were written down? or how do you know that the copies we have now(nothing complete before about the 4th century) are trustworthy?
 
But if the Church has erred how do you know of Jesus’ Death and Resurrection in the first place? How can you trust the veracity of the Gospels without the Church? How do you know the New Testament is anything other than a good literary fiction, up there with the odyssey or the works of shakespeare?

The Gospels didn’t fall from heaven as a finished product, they were written by human authors under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and those human authors were part of the Church. If the Church erred at some point, how do you know it wasn’t before the gospels were written down? or how do you know that the copies we have now(nothing complete before about the 4th century) are trustworthy?
This is really for another thread. I take the line that we can’t trust the veracity of the gospels without the RCC (I’m not going to say “Church” because we mean different thing by that) to be duplicitous at best. Do you not try to prove the papacy from an appeal to Scripture - Matthew 16:18? Of course you do. But if the Church establishes Scripture, then don’t use it to prove doctrine. You must support the concept of the papacy… with an appeal to the papacy.
 
This is really for another thread. I take the line that we can’t trust the veracity of the gospels without the RCC (I’m not going to say “Church” because we mean different thing by that) to be duplicitous at best. Do you not try to prove the papacy from an appeal to Scripture - Matthew 16:18? Of course you do. But if the Church establishes Scripture, then don’t use it to prove doctrine. You must support the concept of the papacy… with an appeal to the papacy.
Yes it is a bit off topic but so is this…
Quite. I was comparing JWs to Roman Catholicism, and it quickly becomes another thread to quiz the Protestant. 😛 I’m perfectly able to reply, but lets stick to the topic.
I am not trying to compare JW’s and Catholics, I am entertaining a theory of the trajectory of SS. If you would like to add your thoughts on this subject I would appreciate it.

Peace brother!!!
 
If Rome’s additions to the gospel are false… does that change the facts of Jesus’ death and resurrection? Not at all. I can find a reasonable starting point for personal trust in Christ, which is what saves. I can say why I am Christian.
But you forget. Stephen, that it’s also Rome’s declaration that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are inspired to which you defer.

That’s the ONLY way you know the facts of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Thus, you do submit to her dogma.
 
I know. I’m sorry. Too often - on both sides - it’s too much like naming and shaming. I’m just not comfortable with that. So I err on the side of caution. And if I’m disagreeing with a point someone makes I don’t want it to be taken personally. In discussions so fraught with tension, sometimes it’s better to address the argument not the person. The sweeping unsupported claim: “the difference is the Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself, he also gave it the Magisterium”, for example, could and would be made by any Catholic here.
It’s just the nature of dialogue here on the CAFs. There is a positing of positions, arguments are proffered and refuted, and authorship of these posts ought to be quite clear.

Anyone who posts ought to be able to stand by her statements. There is no need to remove authorship in an attempt to “de-personalize” the discussion.

And I thank you for being amenable to this correction, as you have done in your past few posts. :tiphat:
 
Kept the same doctrines… like penance?
The doctrine of penance? There is no doctrine of penance.

Perhaps you mean the practice of penance, Stephen. While this practice has indeed evolved over the past 2000 years of Christendom, the doctrine of the sacrament of confession has remained the same.
 
The Gospels didn’t fall from heaven as a finished product, they were written by human authors under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and those human authors were part of the Church. If the Church erred at some point, how do you know it wasn’t before the gospels were written down? or how do you know that the copies we have now(nothing complete before about the 4th century) are trustworthy?
'zactly.

This will be a point that will go unaddressed, as there simply are no remarks that can be made, save for, “This is correct”.

Not to mention, if it’s possible that the Church erred in discerning that the Gospel of Mark is inspired, then one ought to be very, very careful about quoting from it, as well as quoting from anything in the NT.

And, any Protestant ought to consider quoting from the Epistle of Barnabas and say, “It is my private judgement that it is the inspired Word of God!” and no Protestant ought to counter that with, “You cannot say this of your own accord!” for he would be refuting his own position.*

*If this said Protestant does indeed subscribe to the doctrine of “I can decide for myself what is the Word of God without any outside authority”. As there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations, and Protestantism is a behemoth of conflicting beliefs, one cannot assume any single Protestant position.
 
the doctrine of the sacrament of confession has remained the same.
I disagree. And although the burden of proof isn’t on me, I’m happy to defend what I said. Theologically it’s all changed. If penance was a sacrament, instituted by God, and in keeping with the Roman Catholic notion of ex opere operato, and if it was necessary to be performed in that particular way as it was in the early church, and if the Christians of that time believed it as such - then* why did it change?* Indeed, given the current attitude to sacraments, if the early church thought the same (they clearly didn’t), then how could it change? It’s also worth asking, if the early church was really performing a real sacrament, and that particular way was correct - with the weepers, hearers, kneelers etc. - then does the sacrament now (which dates to about the 11th century) that has replaced the older one actually work? It is fundamentally impossible to change that ritual - which you have - without *ipso facto *imposing a man-made tradition on God, telling God when and how to dispense grace, or, without the sacrament failing to have any benefit because it is no longer properly administered. Those are your choices.

There’s also something to be said about justification by law. If the penance was not performed to the letter, say you were a kneeler for 2 days short of the prescribed term, then what? Are you saved by grace or by following the letter of the law? Paul’s letter to the Galatians springs to mind. In this case, to escape that charge of legalism, you can certainly take the line that the penance in the early church wasn’t done for absolution. And you’d be right. But that would irreparably undermine your penance now as a valid sacrament.

The sacrament of confession was made a requirement for salvation at the 4th Lateran Council. Before then, you could be saved without it. I don’t mind the quiz the Protestant part, but I’m done on this topic because it’s off topic. 🙂
 
I disagree. And although the burden of proof isn’t on me, I’m happy to defend what I said. Theologically it’s all changed. If penance was a sacrament, instituted by God, and in keeping with the Roman Catholic notion of ex opere operato, and if it was necessary to be performed in that particular way as it was in the early church, and if the Christians of that time believed it as such - then* why did it change?*
Because practices and disciplinary behaviors of the Faith can and do change.

Simple as that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top