Bible Alone and what does it really mean?

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Protestants ought to know better. When Christ is saying, “It is written” He is speaking of the OT. No NT writings existed during Christ’s stay on Earth.

As to the comment about the OT only consisting of the Torah (Law), that is untrue. At the time of Jesus’ presence, there was a non-codified portion of Scripture that had the weight of Scripture in Jewish worship and scholarship. These two parts, the Prophets and the Writings were known to Jesus … indeed, to any Jew who attended temple or synagogue.

Were they strictly “canon”? No, the Jewish clergy and scholars had seen no need to canonized what was common practice. That canonization wouldn’t happen until several decades after the destruction of the temple in 70AD by the Romans.

In large part the canonization process had political implications: there were portions of the Prophets and Writings that were lynchpins of Christian theology (prophesy of the Messiah, the nature of purgatory, of intercessary prayer, etc.), but not totally necessary to Judaism. These were stricten from the Masoretic Judaic canonized Scripture. Yet they existed in Jewish liturgical practice at the time of Jesus.

These, of course, became the Apocryphal books. Deriving OT Scripture from the Masoretic as opposed to the Septuagint gave the likes of Luther, Calvin and Wesley a huge lever in their schisming from Catholicism.

Protestants like to cite verse that warns against adding anything to Scripture. Yet they ignore the very next verse that cautions against removing anything from Scripture.

That’s what you get with selective use of sola scriptura.
 
Hebrews 1

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Ah, the prophets and Jesus spoke, that is oral, not written.

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Thus there is proof that not everything was written down.

👍
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Thus there is proof that not everything was written down.
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In addition to the citation of John, common sense tells us this is true. Look at all the apostles and disciples and the length of time they spread the word (and the geographic extent to which it was spread).

Paul, while certainly a driving force and prolific writer, was not the only one spreading the Gospel (good news). This was predominently done by word of mouth. As Christ had invoked upon them the Holy Spirit to help them guard against errancy, what was spoken was the Word. Thus we see reference to the traditions the apostles and disciples passed on.

Scripture is sufficient for proof, for refutation, etc., etc. etc. Scripture itself tells us it is not solely sufficient. Thus, the practice of the kata holos early church to rely on Scripture (which for the most part was OT, as the NT was not yet canonized), on Apostolic Tradition (that which the apostles and disciples orally preached) and Magisterium (the teaching authority vested in the apostles and disciples and their successors by Christ).
 
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

“Where does the Bible say, ‘sola scriptura?’”
“…the scripture cannot be broken.”
John 10:35
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Hebrews 1

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Ah, the prophets and Jesus spoke, that is oral, not written.

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Thus there is proof that not everything was written down.

👍
Click to expand...
and your point?
 
quantumDeus said:
Protestants ought to know better. When Christ is saying, “It is written” He is speaking of the OT. No NT writings existed during Christ’s stay on Earth.

As to the comment about the OT only consisting of the Torah (Law), that is untrue. At the time of Jesus’ presence, there was a non-codified portion of Scripture that had the weight of Scripture in Jewish worship and scholarship. These two parts, the Prophets and the Writings were known to Jesus … indeed, to any Jew who attended temple or synagogue.

Were they strictly “canon”? No, the Jewish clergy and scholars had seen no need to canonized what was common practice. That canonization wouldn’t happen until several decades after the destruction of the temple in 70AD by the Romans.

In large part the canonization process had political implications: there were portions of the Prophets and Writings that were lynchpins of Christian theology (prophesy of the Messiah, the nature of purgatory, of intercessary prayer, etc.), but not totally necessary to Judaism. These were stricten from the Masoretic Judaic canonized Scripture. Yet they existed in Jewish liturgical practice at the time of Jesus.

These, of course, became the Apocryphal books. Deriving OT Scripture from the Masoretic as opposed to the Septuagint gave the likes of Luther, Calvin and Wesley a huge lever in their schisming from Catholicism.

Protestants like to cite verse that warns against adding anything to Scripture. Yet they ignore the very next verse that cautions against removing anything from Scripture.

That’s what you get with selective use of sola scriptura.
Click to expand...
The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel

Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:

First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses

Why the Apocrypha Isn’t in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I’m certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the “canonical” scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954
 
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

What sense does this make? It was the Roman Church that assembled the books of the Bible,and prayers for the dead and sinless perfection are not at variance with Church doctrine.
 
The hour is late so I won’t pick truthnlight’s asserts apart until the morrow sometime.

However, all of the apocrypha listed were in the Septuagint widely in use at the time of Christ. If He had objection to any of it, he certainly didn’t say so.

I have addressed the reglio-political reasons for the apocryphal writings being removed from Judaic text. Note that these were removed 50 or more years after Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection, at the time of Christ, all of these were in liturgical use in Judaism.

KJV removed them because for their purposes it suited them better to use the Masoretic text than the ones extant at the time of Christ.

I will pick apart your fallacies tomorrow, but I found this the most galling of your comments:
I’m certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian.
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[Moderator Note: Edited out unsavory comments]
 
"It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.[4]

"They are the following: of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second. Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.

“If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema…” (Council of Trent, 4th Session, April 8, 1546, “Decree Concerning the Canonical Scriptures”)
 
Neither Jesus nor any of the New Testament writers ever once quoted from the Apocrypha. There are 263 quotations and 370 references to the Old Testament in the New Testament and not one of them refers to the Apocrypha

What about the Jewish canon? How was it developed? Jews believed that God reveals His will to and through inspired people. Essentially, they accepted three means for receiving divine revelation:

“Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet…” (Jeremiah 18:18)

Priests learned the will of God through the Urim and Thummin, which were sacred objects carried inside the breastplate of the high priest. These were used as oracular media to divine the will of God.

God Himself disclosed to Moses the means of sanctification and atonement. These became the means of sustaining the divine-human relationship.

The prophets, or wise men, were God’s spokesmen. The words they spoke were God’s words. The sayings and writings of the prophets were preserved (Isaiah 8:16, Jeremiah 36), and widely circulated in ancient times. Sometime between the 4th and 2nd Centuries B.C., the prophetic canon seems to have been firmed into two groupings. Among the Former Prophets were included the books of Joshua, Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings. The Latter Prophets were Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and The Twelve.
 
quantumDeus said:
The hour is late so I won’t pick truthnlight’s asserts apart until the morrow sometime.

However, all of the apocrypha listed were in the Septuagint widely in use at the time of Christ. If He had objection to any of it, he certainly didn’t say so.

I have addressed the reglio-political reasons for the apocryphal writings being removed from Judaic text. Note that these were removed 50 or more years after Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection, at the time of Christ, all of these were in liturgical use in Judaism.

KJV removed them because for their purposes it suited them better to use the Masoretic text than the ones extant at the time of Christ.

I will pick apart your fallacies tomorrow, but I found this the most galling of your comments:
Click to expand...
When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
 
**Luke 12:19-20—"**I shall say to myself, ‘Now as for you, you have so many good things stored up for many years, rest, eat, drink, be merry!’ But God said to him, ‘You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?’"
**Sirach 11:19—"**When he says: ‘I have found rest, now I will feast on my possessions,’ he does not know how long it will be till he dies and leaves them to others."

**Luke 18:22—"**When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.’"
Sirach 29:11—“Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold.”

**John 3:12—"**If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"
Wisdom 9:16—“Scarce do we guess the things on earth, and what is within our grasp we find with difficulty; but when things are in heaven, who can search them out?”

**John 5:18—"**For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God."
Wisdom 2:16—“He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.”

**John 10:29—"**My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand."
Wisdom 3:1—“But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them.”

Paul and James allude to them as well:

**Romans 2:11—"**There is no partiality with God."
Sirach 35:12—“For he is a God of justice, who knows no favorites.”

**Romans 9:21—"**Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose andanother fo an ignoble one?"
Wisdom 15:7—“For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: both the vessels that serve for clean purposes, and their opposites, all alike; as to what shall be the use of each vessel of eiother class, the worker in clay is the judge.”

**Romans 11:24—"**For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor?"
Wisdom 9:13—“For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what the Lord intends?”

**1 Thessalonians 2:16—"(**The enemies of Christ persecute us), trying to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, thus constantly filling up the measure of their sins. But the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them."
2 Maccabees 6:14—“Thus, in dealing with other nations, the Lord patiently waits until they reach the full measure of their sins before he punishes them; but with us he has decided to deal differently”

**James 1:13—"**No one experiencing temptation should say, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one."
Sirach 15:11-12—“Say not: ‘It was God’s doing that I fell away’; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: ‘It was he who set me astray’; for he has no need of wicked man.”

Now, of course, you may say that these don’t sound like exact quotes, and you’d be right; but there are thousands of allusions in the New Testament from the Old, both Deuterocanon and not, which are not exact quotes. Romans 11:34, for example, also has an allusion to Job 15:8, but ironically the allusion to Wisdom 9:13 is closer in actual wording to it than Job is. And, of course, if you want to get into loose allusions, we could expand the above list to ten times the size it is. Then there are also the cases of outright error in some New Testament quotes, such as Matthew 27:9, in which Matthew quotes “the prophet Jeremiah”, when the allusion is actually found nowhere in Jeremiah but rather in Zecheriah 11:12-13.

There is also the case of some Old Testament books not being quoted by Jesus in the New Testament: He didn’t quote from Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, or the Song of Solomon. And yet they are still considered to be canonical Scripture even though He did not reference them.

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
 
At the same time, however, they “think differently from us … about the relationship between the Scriptures and the Church. In the Church, according to Catholic belief, an authentic teaching office plays a special role in the explanation and proclamation of the written word of God”. Even so, “in [ecumenical] dialogue itself, the sacred utterances are precious instruments in the mighty hand of God for attaining that unity which the Savior holds out to all.”–SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio)

Nearly 25 years ago, Paul VI wrote:
  1. Christ is the only way to the Father (cf. Jn. 14:4-11), and the ultimate example to whom the disciple must conform his own conduct (cf. Jn. 13:15), to the extent of sharing Christ’s sentiments (cf. Phil. 2:5), living His life and possessing His Spirit (cf. Gal. 2:20; Rom. 8:10-11). The Church has always taught this and nothing in pastoral activity should obscure this doctrine.–Marialis Cultus, Apostolic Exhortation of Paul VI, February, 1974)
 
There can be little doubt that that warning to the Hebrew people wandering in the wilderness holds true to this day, for God does not change.
 
truthnlight said:
The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel

Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:

First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses

Why the Apocrypha Isn’t in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
**The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church ****(I’m certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian). **The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the “canonical” scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954
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Wow! You have the walls put up really high. Sometimes when we build walls to protect ourselves, we fail to notice that we imprison ourselves. Yes no one can hurt you but also no one can help you.
How can Jesus help you when you have the walls up so high? Jesus is the Living Word of God. He lives in us Catholics too.

Acts 26:15
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Is that definition biblical?

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking*, correcting and training in righteousness,

In context, all scripture only refers to the OT which Timothy learned as a child.
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Hi
Since Jesus did not leave anything written by him or authenticated by him, so the above interpretation seems to be reasonable. Where there is no specific teachings by words of mouth of Jesus, OTBible- its canon part is to be followed, as Jesus came to fullfill what is written in OTBible and not to cancel it. In my opinion Jesus was a subordinate ProphetMessenger of Moses appointed by GodAllahYHWH, he was Moses’ last successor.
Thanks
 
Hi
I would like to share my views here. I understand that Sola Scriptura is one of the Major issues between my Protestant friends and my Catholic friends.
The true Catholics, in my opinion, should follow Jesus not anyone else:
  1. For the religious text whether written or verbal that which is from the direct mouth of Jesus, should be given preference over anything said or written by anybody else whosoever.
  2. The practices should be also from the deeds of Jesus, on whom he had done a continuous performance, without break say daily, weekly etc basis and he has set his followers on to it before his disappearance.
  3. The history or tradition cannot replace #1 and #2 above, these could be respected if these are in line with #1 and #2 above, otherwise rejected.
    Jesus must be preferred, that is my view in nutshell.
    Thanks
 
truthnlight said:
When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
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And your response had to do with my rebuttal how? :confused:

Are you asserting you were immaculately conceived and are thus able to judge all Catholics?
 
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